Why are Shadows First Ones?

Nukemall · Nov 14, 2001

Given that prior to Sheridan going to Zha'ha'dum, what we know about the Shadows is that they are incredibly old and evil force. We are also told this by the Vorlons via the Minbari. Thus, is it not unreasonable for the Vorlons to make their ships look not as technologically as advanced as the other first ones? This woujld support their story that they alone aren't strong enough to fight the Shadows, and that they need the younger races to help (thus enlisting them into their real cause).

(This would not be unreasonable seeing as the Narn make their ships look more advanced than they actually are).

Ditto with the jumpgate technology.

Btw, please tell me you didn't get this information of B5tech.com?

Regards

------------------
'Red can of tuna'

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 14, 2001

Yeah!If there really so tough and great why did they need the younger race?Was it beacause they would just prefer we did the fighting rather than suffer losses themselves?Or was it something to do with the rules of engagement that both the vorlons and shadows agreed on?In all the engagements we see the Vorlons seem to have the upper hand.But lets look at it closer when kosh finally agrees to submit forces to the war and there ships attack they ambush the shadows from below they always avoid direct conflict!!!In into the fire they flow right toward them...yeah after Sheridan detonated two nukes in the middle of the Shadow fleet!Just to answer the original question the Shadows are first ones you must see that there Tech is so much more advanced!?

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We live for the one!We die for the one!

Nukemall · Nov 14, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If there really so tough and great why did they need the younger race? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The war is really a war of idealogies of bringing up your children.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Was it beacause they would just prefer we did the fighting rather than suffer losses themselves? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Sheridan says something along the lines of it being trying get your children to decide which parent is right.

I know that I haven't properly answered those questions, but my verbal reasoning has been down since mid-October

.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Just to answer the original question the Shadows are first ones you must see that there Tech is so much more advanced!? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO, the Shadows are First Ones simply because JMS says so

(hey, proof by definition). I wouldn't have thought that many people other than JMS knows the criteria for being at first one status, or whether he has any specific criteria.

Regards

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'Red can of tuna'

KoshN · Nov 14, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anla'Shock:
Okay here we go!I never said that the shadows were telepathic i just think that we should'nt count that out!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not. I'm just saying that it's probably by artificial, technological means, as opposed to the biological means used by the Vorlons.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The vorlon ships are almost shaped and moulded as you would build one of the younger races ships!They almost appear to have some sort of solid material hull under the organic armour!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, looks can be deceiving. Maybe they're assembled from living pieces. Different pieces might serve different functions and are grown separately, before they're put together. Maybe the pieces are put in close proximity to each other and they knit together on their own. Who knows? JMS has never said. He's leaving a mystery.

When Kosh says, "We are not yet ready." I think it means that they are not finished growing enough ships to be able to fight the Shadows (yet).

If Vorlon ships are fabricated and assembled like ships of the younger races, and are an organic armor over a more conventionally built ship, then how do the tendrils on Kosh's transport deform at will? It definitely looks like a biological process at work here. Vorlon ships are living and sentient.

Remember when Sheridan got too close to the Transport and when Dr. Everett Jacobs delivered out of Kosh's transport in Hunter, Prey? Remember when Lyta was delivered out of the transport in Passing Through Gethsemane?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The shadow vessels on the other hand did indeed destroy a Vorlon Star Dreadnaught in the backround a couple of seconds into the battle!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll go back and check this out.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
There vessels are not even made of organic tech
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Based on what's been revealed in B5, I don't think you can say that. I think both Shadow and Vorlon vessels are made of organic tech. Both the Shadows and the Vorlons use other beings toward their own ends. The difference is that the Vorlons are more someone who has a horse or dog.
I have a dog, but don't consider her my slave. The relationship between Vorlon and ship is more like rider and horse, master and companion, than master and slave.

Shadows care not for the individual, but rather they care for the race, the collective (e.g. they care whether or not a race evolves and gets stronger). To them, individuals are just tools, a means to an end, something to be used.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
...as used on the vorlon ships
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, obviously they're different approaches to living-tech.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
...evidently they use some kind of Nanochanical technollogy!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Shadows do use nanotechnology, but that does not mean that their ships are not grown, or that they are not living organisms possibly supplemented or enslaved by nanotech. A Shadow telepath bomb is a creature made to serve the purposes of the Shadows, possibly through nanotech.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Another reason i belive the are older is that the vessels do not use a jump point to enter hyperspace the Phase into it they have also developed a jump point disrupter which shows the have even more understanding of hyperspace physics than the vorlons!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because a method of entering/leaving hyperspace is different, it does not mean that it is superior. You assume the Shadow's method is superior because all the younger races (including the Drakh, btw) use the Vorlon method. Well, the Vorlons probably gave them that method, by leaving jumpgates for the younger races to find. The Shadow's phasing method is more in tune with their general philosophy of wanting to keep thier presence as secret as possible, to call less attention to themselves, an further chaos and survival of the fittest. The Vorlon method is more above board, and open. These differences does not mean that one is inferior to the other. The Shadow's method is just better for the sneak attack.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The vorlons also use some kind of Antimatter drive propulsion system as you can see by the fact that vorlon vessels produce engine emmissions...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't know this. What is your source of knowledge of Vorlon "engines"? Assuming their ships even have engines. Trek? Just because the aft end of the ship glows, does it mean they use an antimatter drive propulsion system??? JMS has left this very much up in the air. He hasn't disclosed the secrets of Vorlon propulsion, power sources, or weapons technology. He's kept it a mystery, on purpose.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
...the shadow vessels do not!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Big deal. Shadows use some sort of stealth technology, and this is in-character for them. It is not in-character for the Vorlons. Generally, Vorlons don't encounter ships from other races because:

1. The Vorlons stay within their own area of space (and other races are discouraged from exploring there), and

2. the Vorlons have good enough sensors to be able to avoid the ships of other races and navigate off-beacon in hyperspace.

When the Vorlons do want to hide, they can, as seen when they manipulated the fabric of hyperspace to hide their entire fleet within a fold. The only reason the Whitestar could detect them was because the Whitestar is partially based on Vorlon technology. Again, this is technology that the Vorlons shared (with the Minbari).

If the Shadows had shared their hyperspace entry/leaving tech with the younger races, and the Vorlons had kept their tech to themselves, would you assume the Vorlon tech was superior? Superiority depends on the intended use. If the use is to enable sneak attacks, you're right, the Shadow method is superior for that. If the use is to let other nearby ships avoid your incoming ships, the Vorlon method is superior for that. Other than that, not knowing the efficiency of each method (energy expended to enter or exit hyperspace), I'd say the methods are just "different."

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel. http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited November 14, 2001).]

jnk5y · Nov 14, 2001

about the shadow method of leaving and entering hyperspace... The only difference is appearance. I don't remember which episode but while on the whitestar someone mentions that jump points where opening. The shadows then appeared. So they do use jump points but without the flash of light. Scanners can still pick it up. Just like the first one that almost killed sakai. Their jump point looks like electricity and lightning. So that is that.

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**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The shadows are even older than the vorlons and walkers!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True. By the word of JMS, quite a bit older than the Vorlons, and a little older than the Walkers...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Vorlon ships hulls and bioarmour are far less advanced because visually you can see it has the form of beeing constructed!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually I think that's because Vorlons are sneaky bastards who like disinformation. Ditto the engine exhausts on Vorlon ships, when they're clearly capable of using gravitic propulsion, or their encounter suit fetish... never showing their true face (or capabilities) until it is really neccessary.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Back the vessels it is true that a vorlon star dreadnaught detroyed a shadow battlecrab with one shot in into the fire but the shadows where doing equal amounts of damage on the vorlons!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually - no.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In Interludes and Examinations, we see a Vorlon Transport destroy a Shadow Battlecrab with one shot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not really - it's the whacky CGI again. Look at the ship sizes - either it's a Battlecrab a bit larger than a shuttle (since V.Transports can enter B5's docking bay, and compared to the BC it rammed...), or it's a Capital-sized Transport-hull type (unlikely, since the Vorlon Capital-sized ship is the Heavy Cruiser), or (the probably thing) it's an undersized Battlecrab killed by an oversized Transport-hull. BtW & FYI, the Vorlon ship comes in two sizes, as small Transport and as "Heavy Combat Vessel"-sized Destroyer, while the Shadow hull comes in three sizes - HCV sized Patrol Cruiser, small Capital-sized Cruiser/Carrier, and large Capital Dreadnought.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In Interludes and Examinations, we see several Vorlon Fighters gang up on and destroy a Shadow Battlecrab with many shots.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope. Hurt it - yes, but we don't see if they manage to kill it, or just soften it up for the larger ships (we only see that right afterward a ShadowShip starts releasing Spitfires for interception duties...)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In Interludes and Examinations, we see a Shadow Battlecrab barely able to scratch one tendril of a Vorlon Battlecruiser with one shot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Scratch??? It blows right through! If the BC had better aim it might have seriously damaged the Vorlon ship... unfortunately for it is didn't, and I'm sure the Vorlons return killed it quite dead.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In Into the Fire we see Shadow Battlecrabs destroying Vorlon Fighters with a single shot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually I'm not so sure that were fighters - some of them in a few scenes looked like bigger Vorlon ships to me.

And we also see Vorlons killing Shadow Battlecrab-type hulls with one shot... and Shadows killing Vorlon Cruisers (though there I am not sure it it didn't take more than one shot...)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There vessels are not even made of organic tech as used on the vorlon ships evidently they use some kind of Nanochanical technollogy! Another reason i belive the are older is that the vessels do not use a jump point to enter hyperspace the Phase into it they have also developed a jump point disrupter which shows the have even more understanding of hyperspace physics than the vorlons!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ship construction - there you are only half right. The Vorlon ships use as much nanotech as the Shadows do - they just hide it. But remember the scene where Sheridan comes a little too close to Kosh's Transport? Such a defense system is possible with some serious nanotech...
Hyperspace - there you are right. Shadow Phase Drives are a tiny little bit better than Vorlon Vortex Generators... and Shadow Vortex Disruptors show they do know a bit more about hyperspace than their shining counterparts. (well, they Are a bit older after all) But it's more a case of apples and oranges - they both do the same thing, are a bit different, and have both their advantages and disadvantages.
And the reason the Vorlons method to enter HS is the same as the one the yonger races use is quite simple - they were the ones who gave the YR this way by seeding the galaxy with jumpgates!!!

Shadow-Vorlon Ship strength Conclusion
The tech is roughly equal, with the Shadows having a bit better technology, but building their ships "Quick and Cheap", which makes them inferior in capabilities to comparable Vorlon vessels (understandable, since it isn't the Shadows themselves that are on board, just some YR "CPU", while the Vorlons DO crew their own shippies, and have to think about their safety when building them)
It's a classic "Quantity vs. Quality" situation...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When Kosh says, "We are not yet ready." I think it means that they are not finished growing enough ships to be able to fight the Shadows (yet).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unlikely. They had a thousand years to prepare, and since the youngerr aces did the bulk of the fighting in Valen's war, the Vorlon fleets didn't suffer the losses the Shadows did...
It probably was some more Vorlon misdirection to get the YR to do things their way...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Vorlon ships are living and sentient.
-snip-
I think both Shadow and Vorlon vessels are made of organic tech.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes - even a guy known as JMS thinks so

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The difference is...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually a better metapher would be that the Vorlons use their ships like horses to ride into battle on (and care for them like a knight for his steed...), while the Shadows use them like living wargame miniatures to send into battle...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>about the shadow method of leaving and entering hyperspace... The only difference is appearance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Almost. As stated above, the Shadow method is also better for sneak attacks...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't remember which episode but while on the whitestar someone mentions that jump points where opening. The shadows then appeared. So they do use jump points but without the flash of light. Scanners can still pick it up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But not because it really is a jump point! It is not! But it IS something coming from hyperspace into normal space, and that gives it a very similar energy signature...

Basically the Vorlon Vortex is a "gate" between the two dimensions, where ships can fly through.
The Shadows simply shift their ship instantly from one dimension into the other - a slightly more elegant method.
(but not neccessarily better, since the Vorlons for example can open their vortex for other ships without generator, while ShadowShips can only take other ships with them if they "grab" them like Garibaldi's 'Fury...)

____________________________________________

Now, about Shadows and Telepathy...

All indications seem to point toward TP ability:
The strange reactions of G'Kar and Londo, who told Morden what he wanted to know almost against their will...
The way they spoke to Talia (and only in her mind, since the guards didn't hear it) when she passed Morden (and she certainly didn't do any scans - that was what she was trying to avoid!)
Their understanding of TP abilities - enough to build tailor-made weapons that kill Teeps only while sparing mundanes (Teep-Bomb, Narn...)
The Eye and what it can do...
The way they made contact through Lyta with Delenn at Coriana.
And finally the very fact that they Are First Ones (and after such a long time of evolution should have gained telepathic powers one way or another - natural or by implanting organic psi-tech)

BUT - they may operate on a special "telepathic wavelength" that makes using their powers on races too different from them a bit difficult... (or they'd do it more often)

------------------
"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Vorlon ships use as much nanotech as the Shadows do - they just hide it. But remember the scene where Sheridan comes a little too close to Kosh's Transport? Such a defense system is possible with some serious nanotech...

There is no evidence that this is nano-tech.
With the shadows it is evident however.The way i think it works is that you have hundreds of thousands of nanites all working in a community.Of course the organisation and direction control mechanism would have to pretty advanced that is probably why they modify living beings as contol systems.When a ship Shadow vessel is destroyed it breaks off it to black blobs!I belive what is happening is that when the ships a high level of damage so much that it loses control over these communities so they simply break away.Another example is the Shadow Planet Killer the large cloud is probably nanites aswell.When the missles detonate the nanites probably move in and destroy the planets biosphere. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>when they're clearly capable of using gravitic propulsion,

You dont know that it could be something else!Although they probably do have knowledge of that type of system.It is however more evident that this some kind of Matter Antimatter engine.

The evidence:

The engines on the Star Dreadnaught for example have a blue glow and no evidence of thrust.A study done by Bristol Science Colledge revealed that in theory this is what the engine emission system would look like.

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We live for the one!We die for the one!

KoshN · Nov 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Vorlon ships hulls and bioarmour are far less advanced because visually you can see it has the form of beeing constructed!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
Actually I think that's because Vorlons are sneaky bastards who like disinformation. Ditto the engine exhausts on Vorlon ships, when they're clearly capable of using gravitic propulsion, or their encounter suit fetish... never showing their true face (or capabilities) until it is really neccessary.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that's just smart. No need to reveal 100% of your capabilities to a potential enemy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In Interludes and Examinations, we see a Vorlon Transport destroy a Shadow Battlecrab with one shot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
Not really - it's the whacky CGI again. Look at the ship sizes - either it's a Battlecrab a bit larger than a shuttle (since V.Transports can enter B5's docking bay, and compared to the BC it rammed...), or it's a Capital-sized Transport-hull type (unlikely, since the Vorlon Capital-sized ship is the Heavy Cruiser), or (the probably thing) it's an undersized Battlecrab killed by an oversized Transport-hull.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alright, I can buy that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
BtW & FYI, the Vorlon ship comes in two sizes, as small Transport and as "Heavy Combat Vessel"-sized Destroyer, while the Shadow hull comes in three sizes - HCV sized Patrol Cruiser, small Capital-sized Cruiser/Carrier, and large Capital Dreadnought.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where'd you get this info., or are you just basing it on observations from the B5 episodes?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In Interludes and Examinations, we see several Vorlon Fighters gang up on and destroy a Shadow Battlecrab with many shots.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
Nope. Hurt it - yes, but we don't see if they manage to kill it, or just soften it up for the larger ships (we only see that right afterward a ShadowShip starts releasing Spitfires for interception duties...)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought we got to see it shrivel and bleed. (Might be thinking of another ep. Still haven't re-watched the ItF.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In Interludes and Examinations, we see a Shadow Battlecrab barely able to scratch one tendril of a Vorlon Battlecruiser with one shot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
Scratch??? It blows right through!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh some on! The Vorlon Battlecruiser got the equivalent of a scraped knuckle. Put a band-aid on it, and go back out to play.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
If the BC had better aim it might have seriously damaged the Vorlon ship... unfortunately for it is didn't, and I'm sure the Vorlons return killed it quite dead.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The real question is "What caused the Shadow Battlecrab's aim to be off, and why didn't it sweep it's beam toward the Vorlon ship after the beam was extended?"

Possible Reasons:
-----------------
The Vorlon ship had some sort of energy field around it that caused the beam to slide off (water off a duck's back), at least partially, or interfere with the Shadow ships's targeting.

The Vorlons are telepathically screwing with the Shadow ships and their CPUs, and that's causing their targeting to be off. However, I have to wonder why they didn't freeze them like Lyta's done in the past.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
Shadow Phase Drives are a tiny little bit better than Vorlon Vortex Generators... and Shadow Vortex Disruptors show they do know a bit more about hyperspace than their shining counterparts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then, explain the Vorlon ability to fold in hyperspace to hide their fleet. Yeah, I know, the Shadows did the same kind with a null field in normal space. The two races just have different ways of doing things. I tend to favor the Vorlon method because it just looks like plain old hyperspace, but the null field stands out because there are no stars. However, the null field does fit in with Shadow philosophy (hiding in the shadows).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Vorlon ships are living and sentient.
-snip-
I think both Shadow and Vorlon vessels are made of organic tech.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
Yes - even a guy known as JMS thinks so

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I meant as opposed to the "nanotech" argument. I get the feeling that some people are arguing that the Vorlon ships (except for the skin) and shadow ships (except for the CPUs) are purely fabricated, mechanical systems with lots of nano-bots in them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
Basically the Vorlon Vortex is a "gate" between the two dimensions, where ships can fly through.
The Shadows simply shift their ship instantly from one dimension into the other - a slightly more elegant method.
(but not neccessarily better, since the Vorlons for example can open their vortex for other ships without generator, while ShadowShips can only take other ships with them if they "grab" them like Garibaldi's 'Fury...)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Nov 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anla'Shock:
When a ship Shadow vessel is destroyed it breaks off it to black blobs!I belive what is happening is that when the ships a high level of damage so much that it loses control over these communities so they simply break away.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't it also be the organic part of the battlecrab bleeding to death? (No, I don't mean the CPU.) By this I mean "biological" blood, not blood made up of nanites.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anla'Shock:
Another example is the Shadow Planet Killer the large cloud is probably nanites aswell.When the missles detonate the nanites probably move in and destroy the planets biosphere.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really doubt that the nanites could survive the thermonuclear explosion of the missile in the molten planetary core.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>when they're clearly capable of using gravitic propulsion,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anla'Shock:
You dont know that it could be something else!Although they probably do have knowledge of that type of system.It is however more evident that this some kind of Matter Antimatter engine.

The evidence:

The engines on the Star Dreadnaught for example have a blue glow and no evidence of thrust.A study done by Bristol Science Colledge revealed that in theory this is what the engine emission system would look like.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Whitestar and Excalibur both use a gravitic propulsion system and exhibit this same glow.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Couldn't it also be the organic part of the battlecrab bleeding to death? (No, I don't mean the CPU.) By this I mean "biological" blood, not blood made up of nanites.

Maybe i was just speculating.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I really doubt that the nanites could survive the thermonuclear explosion of the missile in the molten planetary core.

Lets not forget that the cloud of nanites surrounds the planet and remains in orbit with the skelatel struture and that survives!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Whitestar and Excalibur both use a gravitic propulsion system and exhibit this same glow.

Yes the collour is the same but you can see the kinetic energy or thrust emissions you cant on the vorlon and you shouldnt on a antimatter engine.

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We live for the one!We die for the one!

KoshN · Nov 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I really doubt that the nanites could survive the thermonuclear explosion of the missile in the molten planetary core.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anla'Shock:
Lets not forget that the cloud of nanites surrounds the planet and remains in orbit with the skelatel struture and that survives!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suspect the cold at 0 psia would be easier to survive. The explosion in the planetary core would probably melt/incinerate the nanites. The pressures would also be pretty intense, so crushing is also a possibility, especially in combination with the high temperatures.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Whitestar and Excalibur both use a gravitic propulsion system and exhibit this same glow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anla'Shock:
Yes the colour is the same but you can see the kinetic energy or thrust emissions you cant on the vorlon and you shouldn't on a antimatter engine.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And we've never seen a close-up, profile shot of the rear area of a Vorlon ship when the throttle's been floored either. We have seen this with the Excalibur (Racing the Night). So, we don't really know if a Vorlon would or wouldn't exhibit the same effect.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

bakana · Nov 16, 2001

When people start arguing about the merits of the Rubber Science, we are REALLY suffering from "New Story Deprivation".

------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 16, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where'd you get this info., or are you just basing it on observations from the B5 episodes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That one is from "Babylon 5 Wars", the B5 tactical space combat boardgame from Agents of Gaming. They spent a Lot of effort to deal with these little things the show throws at us, often successfully (just remember all their designs are limited by the need for game balance, and their ShadowOmega is just plain wrong...)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh some on! The Vorlon Battlecruiser got the equivalent of a scraped knuckle. Put a band-aid on it, and go back out to play.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True, but not because the Slicer Beam was too weak... it was minor damage since it blew a hole in an non-vital part of the ship...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The real question is "What caused the Shadow Battlecrab's aim to be off, and why didn't it sweep it's beam toward the Vorlon ship after the beam was extended?"
Possible Reasons:
-----------------
The Vorlon ship had some sort of energy field around it that caused the beam to slide off (water off a duck's back), at least partially, or interfere with the Shadow ships's targeting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, that was the thing that stopped the first Shadow beam cold - a EM shield that was seen pretty nicely. The second one wasn't even affected by the shield (as we could see), but hit only a tentacle. And since the Vorlon Cruiser was charging up it's main gun I don't think the ShadowShip got off a third shot at it...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Vorlons are telepathically screwing with the Shadow ships and their CPUs, and that's causing their targeting to be off. However, I have to wonder why they didn't freeze them like Lyta's done in the past.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually they DID! Not in this scnene (or maybe just not completely in this scene) but if you look at the fist shadow to die (the one killed by the red Destroyer), it behaved just like the ones jammed by Teeps - no weapon fire, no movement except "shivering"
in place...
For the inaccurate Shadowbeam... well, maybe this ShadowShip had a Teep as CPU, and was resisting the Vorlons jamming somewhat - jammed enough to fire blindly, but not enough to fire not at all...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Then, explain the Vorlon ability to fold in hyperspace to hide their fleet. Yeah, I know, the Shadows did the same kind with a null field in normal space. The two races just have different ways of doing things. I tend to favor the Vorlon method because it just looks like plain old hyperspace, but the null field stands out because there are no stars. However, the null field does fit in with Shadow philosophy (hiding in the shadows).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, even though the Shadows are older, the Vorlons are no slackers either...
As for the Null field - the "no stars" giveaway is neglectible - how often do you think a ship comes close enough to an empty and off-route part of space to notice visual clues???

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I meant as opposed to the "nanotech" argument. I get the feeling that some people are arguing that the Vorlon ships (except for the skin) and shadow ships (except for the CPUs) are purely fabricated, mechanical systems with lots of nano-bots in them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
IMO they clearly transcend the limits between living and unliving. In these stages of technology it becomes a matter of definition - what exactly is organic tech there. If a ship is created from a packet of nano-bots, which "eat" the surrounding matter to make new nanobots and the materials they need for the ship, is it then fabricated or grown? If something is made from non-carbon based compounds, can it be organic? (and if not, what about the non-carbon based races in B5?) What exactly is the limit of "alive"?

It's best to accept the judgement of JMS that Shadows and Vorlons use "organic technology" and their ships are "alive"; suspect that the ships are filled with nanotech, forget the rest and enjoy the show.

But a piece of info from the BG in B5W (see above):
Vorlon ships were engineered from some spaceborn creatures looong ago, and enhanced with the best their technology can do, including the nanotech for self-repair and the morphing skin.
ShadowShips are a mystery, these may even be composed of only lots of nanotech "holding hands" - that would explain why they shrivel up when they "die", and why they "bleed" when they get damaged. While that may be higher tech, it has the disadvantage of no "real" solid internal structure, which in turn means ShadowShips can take less damage; which would explain what we see in the show - once a attack gets past their Energy Diffusers (the energy absorbing and redirecting effect first seen at Gorash 7) the ships get hurt and die pretty quick... (and here the nasty news - Teeps can also jam the Diffusers so they can no longer redirect the energy they absorb, and once their capacity is filled they can no longer absorb any energy and the damage gets trough...)

BtW, another thought for all of you...
Given the effectiveness of teeps against Shadows, don't you think they must have been very, very worried about a certain race of Thirdspace aliens? Maybe that's why they were so much into forced evolution, to have strong, non-teepable proxy races in case the TS guys ever came back...

------------------
"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!

[This message has been edited by ShadowScout (edited November 15, 2001).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 16, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When people start arguing about the merits of the Rubber Science, we are REALLY suffering from "New Story Deprivation".

This isnt an argument!Its a logical debate.Were speculating on what we know for sure!

------------------
We live for the one!We die for the one!

jnk5y · Nov 16, 2001

why do the vorlons and shadows (i don't have the time to write their real name) use ships? Can't they fly around as energy all the time? If they did that wouldn't ships weapons become useless against them?

------------------

KoshN · Nov 16, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jnk5y:
why do the vorlons and shadows (i don't have the time to write their real name) use ships? Can't they fly around as energy all the time? If they did that wouldn't ships weapons become useless against them?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because none of them are as evolved as Lorien (who can do that very thing).

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Nov 16, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where'd you get this info., or are you just basing it on observations from the B5 episodes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
That one is from "Babylon 5 Wars", the B5 tactical space combat boardgame from Agents of Gaming. They spent a Lot of effort to deal with these little things the show throws at us, often successfully (just remember all their designs are limited by the need for game balance, and their ShadowOmega is just plain wrong...)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still, that's not "canon."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh some on! The Vorlon Battlecruiser got the equivalent of a scraped knuckle. Put a band-aid on it, and go back out to play.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
True, but not because the Slicer Beam was too weak... it was minor damage since it blew a hole in an non-vital part of the ship...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It didn't blow a hole in the arm. It removed some skin from the surface of the arm.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The real question is "What caused the Shadow Battlecrab's aim to be off, and why didn't it sweep it's beam toward the Vorlon ship after the beam was extended?"
Possible Reasons:
-----------------
The Vorlon ship had some sort of energy field around it that caused the beam to slide off (water off a duck's back), at least partially, or interfere with the Shadow ships's targeting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
No, that was the thing that stopped the first Shadow beam cold - a EM shield that was seen pretty nicely. The second one wasn't even affected by the shield (as we could see), but hit only a tentacle. And since the Vorlon Cruiser was charging up it's main gun I don't think the ShadowShip got off a third shot at it...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to go back and rewatch I&E and ItF, and do some screen captures. Then I've just got to come up with a place to host them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I meant as opposed to the "nanotech" argument. I get the feeling that some people are arguing that the Vorlon ships (except for the skin) and shadow ships (except for the CPUs) are purely fabricated, mechanical systems with lots of nano-bots in them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
IMO they clearly transcend the limits between living and unliving. In these stages of technology it becomes a matter of definition - what exactly is organic tech there. If a ship is created from a packet of nano-bots, which "eat" the surrounding matter to make new nanobots and the materials they need for the ship, is it then fabricated or grown? If something is made from non-carbon based compounds, can it be organic? (and if not, what about the non-carbon based races in B5?) What exactly is the limit of "alive"?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any nanobots are artificial, not biological, regardless of whether they can autonomously create more of their kind. It's artificial life, machinery that creates more machinery. I don't care what it's based upon, carbon or silicon. If the first bot was assembled, it's not biological. However, it is obvious that the lines are blurring more and more as technology advances.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
It's best to accept the judgement of JMS that Shadows and Vorlons use "organic technology" and their ships are "alive"; suspect that the ships are filled with nanotech, forget the rest and enjoy the show.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right. As a perfectionist engineer, I tend to look closer and closer, but at some point, you have to realize that we're looking closer than the writer looked, or ever intends to look, and that the writer is not and has no desire to become an engineer or scientist.

Then we just have to shake it off, and enjoy the story.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 18, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Still, that's not "canon."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Depends on how you define canon. By the words of JMS, AoG has "canonical authority" - just read the foreword he wrote for their Rules Compendium!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It didn't blow a hole in the arm. It removed some skin from the surface of the arm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Watch it again - the beam penetrates the tentacle - it hits the upper side, and goes out again on the lower side. If the ShadowShip had kept it going and wriggled the beam a bit, it would have cut off the Vorlons tentacle - not that it would jhave helped it, since that wouldn't have kept the Vorlon from killing it with the return shot (Vorlon ships Can fire their main gun even if they loose tentacles - it just has less power)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm going to go back and rewatch I&E and ItF, and do some screen captures. Then I've just got to come up with a place to host them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Any nanobots are artificial, not biological, regardless of whether they can autonomously create more of their kind. It's artificial life, machinery that creates more machinery. I don't care what it's based upon, carbon or silicon. If the first bot was assembled, it's not biological. However, it is obvious that the lines are blurring more and more as technology advances.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you that sure?? Continuing your reasoning, anything created is not biological... so what if one uses Nanotech to assemble a bunny cell by cell? Is the bunny then alive? Is it biological? Where do we draw the line?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Right. As a perfectionist engineer, I tend to look closer and closer, but at some point, you have to realize that we're looking closer than the writer looked, or ever intends to look, and that the writer is not and has no desire to become an engineer or scientist.
Then we just have to shake it off, and enjoy the story.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly!

(but don't worry, I sometimes do the same... and not always realize it that quickly

)

------------------
"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!

KoshN · Nov 18, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Still, that's not "canon."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
Depends on how you define canon. By the words of JMS, AoG has "canonical authority" - just read the foreword he wrote for their Rules Compendium!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I've never played that game or read the Compendium, but I'd say "canon" is anything that JMS feels "bound" by (to not contradict) in the future. e.g. I hope the three Del Rey trilogies are "canon." Any parts of the game that pass this test of canon, are parts with which I'd want to become acquainted. Isn't this game composed of many parts, that are are all sold separately, and so you're never sure if you have all of it?

What do you have to buy to get the complete game? Aren't there miniature ships used as playing pieces or something? Are the ships also canon?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Any nanobots are artificial, not biological, regardless of whether they can autonomously create more of their kind. It's artificial life, machinery that creates more machinery. I don't care what it's based upon, carbon or silicon. If the first bot was assembled, it's not biological. However, it is obvious that the lines are blurring more and more as technology advances.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:
Are you that sure?? Continuing your reasoning, anything created is not biological... so what if one uses Nanotech to assemble a bunny cell by cell? Is the bunny then alive? Is it biological? Where do we draw the line?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A nanobot doing a Dr. Frankenstein from the cellular level? Highly unlikely, since the bunny would not attain "life." It'd just be a lump of assembled flesh. It's more likely that a nanobot could do an artificial insemination, and start a baby bunny, but then again, so could a biologist, and that's starting from sperm and an egg, building blocks which the nanobot did not assemble, and that's also not creating an adult bunny directly from cells.

We're dealing with the spark of life, the soul, and what is required for sentience here, and nobody really "knows" the answers.

So, I'm going to drop it and enjoy the story.

JMS will be OK as long as he doesn't try to completely explain the path to sentience.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 18, 2001

What is alive and what is not? Life is often defined as something exhibiting:

1. Metabolism (exchanging energy and matter with the environment).
2. Reproduction (making functioning copies of itself).
3. Mutation (each copy is slightly different).

This definition makes no distinction between artificial and natural. By this definition, viruses are not fully alive. They reproduce and mutate, but lack a metabolism, instead taking over a host cell's metabolism. Neither would most nanobots be alive - they may have a metabolism and reproduce, but can't mutate (at least as freely as living cells). A good definition of sentience is unfortunately beyond my capabilities to formulate, but I can compare some examples...

Is a Shadow battlecrab alive?

No. It only exhibits some characteristics of life, and certainly not sentient life. If it is built of nanotechnology, its components may easily reproduce, mutate and adapt -- but the battlecrab as a whole remains a machine. A machine designed to control a sentient being, use the imprisoned being's mental abilities to make the ship an intelligent weapon of destruction. As the person in the ship has been deprived of many characteristics of sentience, the outcome is a machine. A machine which, if correctly disassembled, would result in one sentient being and a lot of nanobots (which might separately also be considered alive).

Is a Vorlon ship alive?

Perhaps. Unlike Shadow ships, Vorlon ships seem to have some degree of free will, they may re-assemble themselves from pieces and may-be even reproduce this way. They mutate to fit a Vorlon's needs and survive the environment (including but not limited to weapons fire, radiation, meteor hits). This makes them more alive than a Shadow battlecrab as a whole, but certainly less alive than the "components" of a battlecrab (if they can be successfully separated).

------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

Why are Shadows First Ones?

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