Why did Sheridan really replace Sinclair?

[Arrghman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Because that would mean the Earth Civil War, formation of the Alliance, Drakh and Centauri stuff, and Telepath tragedy never could have happened. All of that was in direct relation to the Shadow War.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sure it could have happened... the seeds of the EA civil war had already been planted during season 2 and season 3 before WWOW... the shaodw war would have ended exactly the same way, the drakh the telepath tragedy... none of them even *knew* about b4, so why couldnt any of this have happened if WWOE happened 20 years later?

personally i love the idea that sinclair would have died at za'ha'dum, had 20 years to live and then took b4 back in time... the triluminary 'rebirthing' him and giving him new life energy. i can imagine a story that combines the plot of WWOE and the emotional impact of SiL... and who cares if thats not what was originally intended, it still sounds cool

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[A_Ranger]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arrghman:
sure it could have happened... the seeds of the EA civil war had already been planted during season 2 and season 3 before WWOW... the shaodw war would have ended exactly the same way, the drakh the telepath tragedy... none of them even *knew* about b4, so why couldnt any of this have happened if WWOE happened 20 years later?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it couldn't. Even in Babylon Squared, we see a flashblack of the fall of Babylon 5, when the Shadows attack it during the war. It didn't state it in that ep, but if you piece things together that's the logical solution. The Shadows coouldn't very well have attacked B5 20 years after they were gone.

The civil war was kicked off into heavy gear when Sheridan and company took care of the Shadows. Earth was in league with them. So when B5 took care of em, it pissed Earth off, and thus, the Civil War.

The Drakh stuff could only happen after the Shadow War. And WWE had to take place during the Shadow War, or else B5 would have been destroyed. Same for the Telepath tragedy. They had to find out that they were made by the Vorlons, and the Vorlons had to be gone.

All this stuff had to happen witht he Shadows gone. And B4 had to be taken back durign the Shadow War, or else B5 would have been destroyed. This was cleary what the flashback in BSquared (with Garibaldi and Sinclair fighting and B5 goign down) alluded too.



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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

 

[Arrghman]

no no no... you're thinking about it way to lineraly. it doesnt matter when sinclair and co. left to take b4 back in time... the only reason they did it then was because thats when draal made the rift bigger

if b4 hadnt been taken back in time, then the shadows would have come out stronger in the last war and destroyed b5. but all that matters is that b4 arrived 1000 years. remember, b4 was taken from the past anyway. like, you know in st: first contact, the instant the borg sphere goes back in time all history is changed... its the same way with b4. or like in any of the back to the future movies... the instant you change something in the past, the present and the future are instantly changed. the distress message they recieved from b5 wasnt just from the future... it was from an alternate future which was the result of an alternate past

as delenn said... they had already stolen b4, they just had to do it again. and the timeframe that they started out in was completely independent of the original timeframe when b4 was stolen as well as the time frame where b4 was delivered to

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[*Sigh*]

if i go back in time and kill my father before i'm born so i can't be born, then i can't go back in time and kill my father so i'm still born and i still go back in time and kill my....

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"Would it be wrong, would it be right, if i took my life to night? Chances are that i might." -Papa Roach-

 

[Arrghman]

short answer: no with a but
long answer: yes with an if

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[A_Ranger]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by joev5638:
Bakana,

How often did JMS allude to things like the wisdom of questioning, the curiousity of children, and not doing "as you're told"?

"Have it all figured out"? Well if I did, that'd mean the story was over, wouldn't it? Why would anyone want that?

Ask yourself if JMS has treated Babylon 5 as a "here it is, this is it" project, or if he's allowed it to be a living, breathing story with possibilities, answered our questions - sometimes with answers that leave us with more questions - and evolved it into something that draws you in?

Personally, whether "right" or "wrong," I'd think that he'd be glad that those of us who enjoy the story are trying to piece things together, and see how it would fit, rather than accepting the word of God (in this case, JMS) as to how it was.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're implying tht JMS is a rotten liar, and that he did all this so we would sit here and figure out his lies, regardless of facts and statements he made years ago?

I'm not saying speculating and figuring things out is bad. But the way you people are ogign about it is. Why? Because you have no facts straight, you've done no research at all. If you're going to speculate, you have to speculate on what's there already, not what you want to think. Research before you come up with your "conspiracy theories."

And just for more fun, some more JMS quotes

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I know *exactly* where the
series is going, the final denouement, the benchmarks of each season, and
have brief synopses on most of the episodes. But you have to be open to
surprises, have to allow yourself to be pulled one way or another on the
details, otherwise you get predictable, and you lose the spark. Also,
the reality is that actors are human; there can be contract disputes,
health problems, any number of things...so there have to be trap doors
built into the storyline for *every single one of the characters* without
exception.

The final destination of the story, and the chief points along the
way...none of that has altered so much as an inch. Within that structure
I may move some elments up, push some back; you have to find the *feel* of
the story as you write it, something you can't prepare for until you're
actually writing it. But the structure remains, giving me freedom to
roam where I want...if I decide to kill off one of the three really major
human characters in year three (and I'm NOT saying I'm planning on it, I'm
just discussing hypotheticals), I can do it, and the overall storyline
isn't touched. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

War Without End could enver have been the last episode. Why?

Because that would mean the Earth Civil War, formation of the Alliance, Drakh and Centauri stuff, and Telepath tragedy never could have happened. All of that was in direct relation to the Shadow War.

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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

 

[A_Ranger]

Argghman, your forgetting the flash forward in Babylon Squared. Sinclair envisioned B5 going down. What else could that have been other than the Shadows attacking. Think about it. The Shadows got snubbed by B4. Now 1000 years later, there is a B5 that looks pretty similar to B4. You think they're just gonna let it sit there the whole time? I don't think so.

It doesn't matter anyway. Because WWE could NEVER have been the last episode. Read my JMS quotes above. He had planned out the the ending of the story before he started writing the first episode.

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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

 

[A_Ranger]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arrghman:

if b4 hadnt been taken back in time, then the shadows would have come out stronger in the last war and destroyed b5. but all that matters is that b4 arrived 1000 years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they hadn't taken B4 back during the Shadow War, then the Shadows would have destroyed B5 because B4 hadn't been taken back yet and the past not changed yet. They had to take it back during the Shadow War before they came for B5



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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Actually ... and I think I have it all straight(ish) in my head) ... either scenario is possible - given the usual problems with any time-travel story.

Sheridan and the rest went back in time to steal B4 from 2254 and take it 1000 years into the past. It actually makes no difference to this, or its affect on the story whether this takes place in 2260, 2267 or 2282.

However, the key to how the story played out was the flash from Sector 14 (WWEI) showing the Shadows destroying the station in 8 days time. That was the wake up call that it needed to be done NOW, otherwise B5 would have been destroyed and the stealing of B4 would never have happened.

As long as this possible destruction of B5 by the Shadows was in the original plan then the stealing of B4 had to take place during the Shadow War. The inclusion of this in the flash forward during Babylon Squared has always indicated to me that it was indeed always intended.

However, the original plan could have been that the Drakh planned to destroy B5 long after the end of the Shadow War, having evolved some additional brain cells and worked out how they could ensure that their masters were not expelled from the galaxy. We will never know.

But it is fun to speculate, although I have to say I am happy to enjoy the storyine as it stands.

I am going to sign off now, because my brain hurts !!

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DaveC
"Let me be the first to say that this is the nuttiest idea you've ever had."

 

[Arrghman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>If they hadn't taken B4 back during the Shadow War, then the Shadows would have destroyed B5 because B4 hadn't been taken back yet and the past not changed yet. They had to take it back during the Shadow War before they came for B5<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nu-uh. if b4 was supposed to be taken back in place of SiL, then if they hadnt done it then, history would have been changed so that the shadows would have *already* destroyed b5 20 years ago. its a self enforcing loop. when dealing with time travel stories, your original time of departure doesnt matter, just where you end up

and anyway, i really dont care that this wasnt a possibility, as its still fun to speculate

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[A_Ranger]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arrghman:
nu-uh. if b4 was supposed to be taken back in place of SiL, then if they hadnt done it then, history would have been changed so that the shadows would have *already* destroyed b5 20 years ago. its a self enforcing loop. when dealing with time travel stories, your original time of departure doesnt matter, just where you end up

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Say what?



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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

You can't use the story as it actually unfolded (like the attack on B5 happening in 2260 for the reasons we're told it is attacked in "WWE") to "prove" that this is the way things had to have happened. That's how the writer chose to have them happen, either because they were part of the original design, or because he had to find an explanation for the time-flashes in "B2" that was different from what he'd originally had in mind. Absent access to JMS's original notes (and his day-to-day thoughts) it is impossible to say one way or the other.

And so with this entire discussion, really.

However there is one point that I think does need to be made: It is perfectly possible to believe that at one point JMS envisioned the entire story as symmetrical, and ending with Sinclair's return to the past.

It is possible to believe this withtout ignoring JMS's posts over the years, and without calling him a liar - although some people keep loudly insisting that this is not the case, in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary. Most of JMS's posts on this subject (which very rarely touch on it directly in any case) are either deliberately ambiguous, or so narrowly limited in subject matter, the time period discussed or the story contexts as to make it impossible to draw broad conclusions from them.

The whole notion of what was "always" intended is also something of a red-herring. When do you count "always" as beginning? In the 1980s, when the Vorlons were a violent race who constantly jockied for position and used assassination as a political tool? (Some trace of this may have persisted into the pilot. Maybe another Vorlon was intended to be the ultimate source of the poison.) Back when Kosh still had a mate who would join him on B5, and Delenn was a "he"?

It is clear, and has been admitted by JMS many times, that the course of the arc changed repeatedly, although the ultimate conclusion of the story (the beginning of the age of the Younger Races and the establishment of the Interstellar Alliance) never changed. In short, the destination remained the same, but the path to it changed, and in many ways became more interesting. By design it is really impossible to say exactly what the original course was, because you can't simply assume that certain things in the "story as told" would have played out the same way had the original outline been followed.

(In fact, given that it was an outline, and that JMS often didn't "fill in the blanks" until he actually started writing a given script, it is safe to say the he probably couldn't precisely reconstruct what "would" or "might" have happened. He has said that he had certain "milestones" that he knew had to be reached each season, but beyond that he left himself open to new ideas, suggestions and sudden inspiration - as when Vir, rather than Londo, unexpectedly killed Cartagia.)

So everyone should feel free to speculate away without fear that they are contradicting or maligning JMS. The record simply does not support that notion. But also with the understanding that we are never going to "settle" the question, because JMS made sure we wouldn't have enough clues to do so.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[Arrghman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A_Ranger:
Say what?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

its hard to put these things into words sometimes... i attempt to illustrate...

original b5 arc:

possible alternative:

in other words... in the sinclair only senario, not bringing b4 back in time has a retroactive effect on the entire timeline

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>in other words... in the sinclair only senario, not bringing b4 back in time has a retroactive effect on the entire timeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But only if the destruction of B5 as shown in "WWE" is really the future flash from "Babylon Squared" If that whole story is just an elaborate rationalization for sending Sinclair back in time two seasons early then the attack we saw in "B2" could be anything and having a "Sinclair only" scenario violates nothing. This is what I meant by using events in the existing show to "prove" things about the possible alternatives.

BTW, is there any way you can make those picture files a little smaller?

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[Arrghman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
But only if the destruction of B5 as shown in "WWE" is really the future flash from "Babylon Squared" If that whole story is just an elaborate rationalization for sending Sinclair back in time two seasons early then the attack we saw in "B2" could be anything and having a "Sinclair only" scenario violates nothing. This is what I meant by using events in the existing show to "prove" things about the possible alternatives.

BTW, is there any way you can make those picture files a little smaller?

Regards,

Joe

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

also, thats one little piece of 'evidence' if you will for the sinclair only version... why would sinclair have been on b5 when the shadows attacked it mid season 3? although one could argue that the shadows being stronger would have other affects on the time line as well...

BTW, fixed

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[A_Ranger]

I used arguments from what was in B2 because my oppenents did first.

Anyway... Arghman, I see how your theory could work, but I guess I just don't go for this they can do it whenever jsut so long as they do it. It's too damn convienent for my tastes.


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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

 

[bakana]

The thing that puzzles me about the whole thing is WHY so many people keep trying to figure out where JMS made "adjustments"?

Why not accept that what we Got was the Best Babylon 5 story possible and leave it at that?

I mean, anyone who thinks he can write a Better story should go Write it.
If it IS better, all of us, including JMS, will shout with joy and demand to read it or watch it.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You know, the fact that this subject is so confusing is the reason why I just don't like time-travel in Sci-Fi. Once you throw it in, it just opens up too many doors and you have to second-guess everything that happens.

"So party A goes back to time X and sets it up so they win. In their final desperate moments, party B goes back to time Y, five minutes or years before X and undoes what party A did, thus allowing party B to win once more."

Basically, time-travel is a Pandora's box that once opened, can never be closed and casts a shadow over everything else in the story. I absolutely loved B5, I really think it's the greatest sci-fi TV series EVER, but I just *really* wish JMS hadn't brought in the time-travel angle.

P.S. The Great Machine seemed like it must've been First One-related in some way. Anyone else wonder what happened to it after the Shadow War? Or did I miss the episode where that gets explained...

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Proud B5 fanatic and member of the [ReM]Counter-Strike clan. Come! See! Get your butt kicked!

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Anyone else wonder what happened to it after the Shadow War? Or did I miss the episode where that gets explained...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only thing that was ever said (and this was Before the Shadow War) was that the Great Machine was being held in Trust until the younger races were "Ready" to understand its secrets.

Oh, and somewhere JMS said it was built about 400 years after the Time of Valen, but never Who built it althoug it Is implied that the caretaker Sinclair & Ivanova rescued was part of the race that built it.

We never got told where they went after building it.
One theory that has been offered is that they were the most Recent race to achieve "first one" status in their evolution and that they left one volunteer behind to keep an eye on things while they went exploring the Universe after their transformation into Energy Beings.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[superbob]

Essentially I agree with statemnet that one shouldn't mix time travel into the whole equation. I don't know what influenced JMS into making that particular story but you have to admit that JMS tied it up quite nicely. Unless you start getting mixed up in the whole "who came first scenario" I got into a spirited discussion the other day with a fellow B5 fan. What it boiled down to is which theory one believes. Time travel on a linear plane, wormhole time travel or infinte possibilty of futures dependant on a pivotal point in the present. It gets reaallllly murky after a while

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"