Why is #9 book not considered 100% canon?

[Jan]

You'd think, with him being so proud of this aspect of the ship ("It's huge." and wanting the series to have an awesome ship. Listen to the commentary.), that would be one of the facts he'd get right. Think he needs a few fact checkers on staff, to help keep him straight.

Umm...c'mon, let's cut a little slack here. How many of us could walk into a recording studio and talk about a show, on the fly, as we're watching it, unrehearsed and get every single solitary syllable correct? I know I couldn't!

It was a slip of the tongue, nothing more. Same as when he said Coriana Seven instead of Coriana Six.

Jan

 

[KoshN]

You'd think, with him being so proud of this aspect of the ship ("It's huge." and wanting the series to have an awesome ship. Listen to the commentary.), that would be one of the facts he'd get right. Think he needs a few fact checkers on staff, to help keep him straight.

Umm...c'mon, let's cut a little slack here. How many of us could walk into a recording studio and talk about a show, on the fly, as we're watching it, unrehearsed and get every single solitary syllable correct? I know I couldn't!

It was a slip of the tongue, nothing more. Same as when he said Coriana Seven instead of Coriana Six.

Jan

So what you're saying is that they couldn't do a East End/West End type of edit here? They didn't record his voice on the same track as the show, so it should have been easy to fix, IF anybody noticed it. Also, before talking about a show, I'd sure as hell be prepared. I'd have watched the episodes once immediately before commenting.

 

[Jan]

So what you're saying is that they couldn't do a East End/West End type of edit here? They didn't record his voice on the same track as the show, so it should have been easy to fix, IF anybody noticed it. Also, before talking about a show, I'd sure as hell be prepared. I'd have watched the episodes once immediately before commenting.

No, I didn't say anything of the sort. What I said was what I said. Of course they *could* have under exactly the circumstances you noted - <u>IF</u> they noticed it. Who's they? I certainly wouldn't expect the people at the recording studio to know anything about the show. As far as we know the studio did send this tape to JMS to review but we don't know if he sat down and listened/watched all of it or just spot-checked, do we. Who else should have noticed?

Think he needs a few fact checkers on staff, to help keep him straight.

What staff does he have? Do you know, because I sure don't. He used to say that when he wasn't working on a show he worked out of his home office. Doesn't sound like he'd have a huge staff there, does it? Exactly how much do you think it would cost for him to keep said 'fact checkers' on staff (leaving aside for the moment that Babylon 5 is fiction)?

You may be surprised to hear this, but I think to most people, what's important about the commentaries is the thoughts and feelings and stories, not the exact dimensions of every piece of equipment. In other words, the slip of the tongue doesn't matter in the slightest.

You might go ahead and be as prepared as you like so that the 'T's are crossed and the 'I's are dotted but I prefer the honest, spontaneous emotion we heard in the Sleeping in Light commentary and don't give a flip whether he said Coriana Six or Coriana Seven or Coriana Twelve and Five Eighths.

Jan

 

[KoshN]

So what you're saying is that they couldn't do a East End/West End type of edit here? They didn't record his voice on the same track as the show, so it should have been easy to fix, IF anybody noticed it. Also, before talking about a show, I'd sure as hell be prepared. I'd have watched the episodes once immediately before commenting.

No, I didn't say anything of the sort. What I said was what I said. Of course they *could* have under exactly the circumstances you noted - <u>IF</u> they noticed it. Who's they? I certainly wouldn't expect the people at the recording studio to know anything about the show. As far as we know the studio did send this tape to JMS to review but we don't know if he sat down and listened/watched all of it or just spot-checked, do we. Who else should have noticed?

Who's they? JMS and anybody else who checks these things for errors. There is such a thing as Quality Assurance/Quality Contol, isn't there? Or do they just wing it and throw the stuff out on the street?

Refering to "As far as we know the studio did send this tape to JMS to review" what are you talking about, the audio recording of the commentary for JMS to go over and then give his OK on? A tape of the episode he's commenting on? I find it hard to believe that JMS didn't have his own copies of all of the Crusade episodes on tape, to watch whenever he wanted.

JMS should have noticed as soon as the words came out of his mouth.

Think he needs a few fact checkers on staff, to help keep him straight.

What staff does he have? Do you know, because I sure don't. He used to say that when he wasn't working on a show he worked out of his home office. Doesn't sound like he'd have a huge staff there, does it? Exactly how much do you think it would cost for him to keep said 'fact checkers' on staff (leaving aside for the moment that Babylon 5 is fiction)?

You may be surprised to hear this, but I think to most people, what's important about the commentaries is the thoughts and feelings and stories, not the exact dimensions of every piece of equipment. In other words, the slip of the tongue doesn't matter in the slightest.

You might go ahead and be as prepared as you like so that the 'T's are crossed and the 'I's are dotted but I prefer the honest, spontaneous emotion we heard in the Sleeping in Light commentary and don't give a flip whether he said Coriana Six or Coriana Seven or Coriana Twelve and Five Eighths.

Jan

Re. the fact checkers, I was more referring to when a show is in production (e.g. if Crusade re-started, I'd hate to see the ship refered to as a quarter mile long in a future episode.). IIRC, Fiona Avery used to serve that function. Also, he doesn't necessarily have to keep fact checkers "on staff" when a show is out of production. Instead, he could just run the stuff by some knowledgable people, to have them proof things a bit. If necessary, some of the more knowledgable fans could serve this purpose. I know I'd gladly lend a hand in the interest of making things better. JoeD probably would as well. The more sets of eyes you have on stuff like this, the more you'll catch.

What you see as a slip of the tongue that doesn't matter in the slightest, I see as a cringe inducing moment that makes it look like he doesn't know his own universe. It wouldn't have been as bad if he didn't make a big deal out of it, but he drew attention to it and then flubbed it. I know it's fiction, but it still has to be true to itself.

 

[Jan]

Who's they? JMS and anybody else who checks these things for errors. There is such a thing as Quality Assurance/Quality Contol, isn't there? Or do they just wing it and throw the stuff out on the street?

Very likely QA is about technical aspects, not content provided gratis.

Refering to "As far as we know the studio did send this tape to JMS to review" what are you talking about, the audio recording of the commentary for JMS to go over and then give his OK on? A tape of the episode he's commenting on? I find it hard to believe that JMS didn't have his own copies of all of the Crusade episodes on tape, to watch whenever he wanted.

Whichever tape JMS is referring to in this December post when he discussed what was done to his Crusade commentary:

This was the one tape they didn't send me for approval, which being busy I
didn't track back, but I was always told there wasn't a problem.

What you see as a slip of the tongue that doesn't matter in the slightest, I see as a cringe inducing moment that makes it look like he doesn't know his own universe. It wouldn't have been as bad if he didn't make a big deal out of it, but he drew attention to it and then flubbed it. I know it's fiction, but it still has to be true to itself.

Obviously our mileage varies. I like the forest, you want to examine each tree.

Jan

 

[deaded]

~JMS should have noticed as soon as the words came out of his mouth.~

My daughter was 8 pounds 9 ounces when she was born.

Wait.

I think.

Or was it 9 pounds 8 ounces?

Damn. Uhhh..... "honey, help me out here..."

 

[GKarsEye]

You may be surprised to hear this, but I think to most people, what's important about the commentaries is the thoughts and feelings and stories, not the exact dimensions of every piece of equipment. In other words, the slip of the tongue doesn't matter in the slightest.

Right on, sister. I don't give a shit exactly how big it is. It's freakin' big- that's it. When I was watching Call To Arms and Crusade, we just kept making dick jokes about it. I mean- look at that thing. Was JMS going through a mid-life crisis when he designed that?

 

[Jan]

Right on, sister. I don't give a shit exactly how big it is. It's freakin' big- that's it. When I was watching Call To Arms and Crusade, we just kept making dick jokes about it. I mean- look at that thing. Was JMS going through a mid-life crisis when he designed that?

Oh, yeah...I'm never sure when I see it if I want to marry it or run screaming

I remember reading something someone (Tim Earls?) wrote about the design. I'll have to see if I can find it again.

Jan

 

[RW7427]

You may be surprised to hear this, but I think to most people, what's important about the commentaries is the thoughts and feelings and stories, not the exact dimensions of every piece of equipment. In other words, the slip of the tongue doesn't matter in the slightest.

Right on, sister. I don't give a shit exactly how big it is. It's freakin' big- that's it. When I was watching Call To Arms and Crusade, we just kept making dick jokes about it. I mean- look at that thing. Was JMS going through a mid-life crisis when he designed that?

I should have known this was GKE saying this.

 

[GKarsEye]

This one's for Family Guy fans: remember when Peter Griffin was feeling insecure about his manhood so he got a phallicly shaped car? I always think of that now when I see the Excalibur. Capt Kirk should be its captain, he would really know how to use that thing.

 

[KoshN]

I remember reading something someone (Tim Earls?) wrote about the design. I'll have to see if I can find it again.

Jan

See Crusade Disc 4 special features. It evolved from a Minbari Sharlin, except that it started out with four fins.

 

[Jan]

See Crusade Disc 4 special features. It evolved from a Minbari Sharlin, except that it started out with four fins.

Ah, thanks, that must be it.

Jan

 

[RW7427]

I just watched that the other day. I remember how they talked about giving the Excalibur a more human look, but at the same time trying to keep some Minbari style elements to it.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

At the time JMS wrote the introduction to Kathryn's book he called it 100% canon and he meant it. But that was when S4 was still shooting and he thought they'd be wrapping the series up tha year.

Then he got the first TV movies, S5, Crusade, and interest in more TV movies from TNT (at least at the start.) In the course of refining his story (and presumably planning for other projects the might touch on some of the earlier material) he apparently decided to change certain details covered in To Dream. This was nothing new. He re-wrote details of the character's biographies to fit in all the characters he wanted to use for In the Beginning as well as making major changes to Sheridan's destruction of the Black Star as it was first described in S2. He's never discussed what changed in his own mind vis a vis To Dream, but in internet posts after 1997 he did back off the "100%" endorsement and coming in somewhere between 95% and 99%.

Regards,

Joe

 

[deaded]

Well I still don't see any inconsistancies in To Dream with respect to the movies, series, or books.

 

[RW7427]

Me neither.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Well I still don't see any inconsistancies in To Dream with respect to the movies, series, or books.

Neither do I, and I didn't say there were any. (Nor, for that matter, did JMS.) Except maybe one. The ritual drink that Sinclair takes during the Entil'Zha ceremony nearly kills him, as it apparently will any non-Minbair. Yet Delenn shows no ill-effect in "Grey 17 is Missing", which was produced before the book was written. And for Delenn to produce fertile off-spring with Sheridan ("Space, Time and the Incurable Romantic" indicates that there are descendents of Delenn 300 years after the events of the series) she must be at least mostly Human.

In any case, it seems more that JMS decided that he would not be bound by every detail in the novel if he had the chance to revist Sinclair's history on screen. So it isn't so much that the book contradicts anything extent in the series, movies or other books as that a future movie or other project by JMS might not mesh 100% with what was in the book - hence the 90-some percent statetment. He took much the same position regarding the trilogies - they're mostly canon, but not every detail should be assumed to be carved in stone and if he holds himself free to contradict anything the writers invented beyond his own outlines if he decides to do so in a future film, series or what-have-you. As always, what's on-screen trumps anything on paper.

Regards,

Joe

 

[deaded]

Except maybe one. The ritual drink that Sinclair takes during the Entil'Zha ceremony nearly kills him, as it apparently will any non-Minbair. Yet Delenn shows no ill-effect in "Grey 17 is Missing", which was produced before the book was written. And for Delenn to produce fertile off-spring with Sheridan ("Space, Time and the Incurable Romantic" indicates that there are descendents of Delenn 300 years after the events of the series) she must be at least mostly Human.

But although I think that for her to have children with John she MUST be completely human (though she'll never get rid of that bone on her head), she is obviously NOT human evidenced by her living hundreds of years. We were told that she lived so long because Minbari have longer life spans but she's not Minbari anymore. The only way I can reconsile that in my own mind is this. In order for her and John to reporduce they have to both have human DNA. However maybe her mitochondrial DNA was not converted to human; only the nuclear DNA (which we all know is the blueprint for construction of the organism). The sperm carries little or no mitochondria as it has almost no cytoplasm, so all the offsprings' mitochondria come from the mother. If somehow the mitochondria were responsible for the aging process then maybe it would make sense that Delenn continue to have a longer lifespan. David would too, if my theory holds true. I guess we will just have to see.

 

[Flounder]

I was going to bring up mitochondrial DNA in the discussion of how human Delenn was. But merely having mitochondria as a Minbari suggests a pretty strong genetic relationship with humans among all Minbari.
Or perhaps it's some other metabolism-related organelle that the Minbari has, and we don't, that was kept intact through the chrysalis....

(This is high-school stuff, but tell us if the doctor and the medical informatics student takes the medical talk too far )

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

But although I think that for her to have children with John she MUST be completely human (though she'll never get rid of that bone on her head), she is obviously NOT human evidenced by her living hundreds of years.

What makes you think Delenn (or any other MInbari, for that mattter) "lived hundreds of years"? There's certainly nothing in the series that suggests this. Delenn is alive, but clearly very old and frail, about 100 years after her Chrysalis transformation, true enough. But that only makes her about 150 human years old and it is hard to tell what effect living as a Minbari for the first third of her life, not to mention the Chrysalis transformation itself, had on her over-all lifespan. Maybe switching speices, in either direction, "recharges" you a bit, the "new" cellls being somewhat younger than the ones they replaced. (Valen also lived about 100 years after his transformation - in part because the Minbari did everything they could to extend the life of so revered a figure, according to JMS. This would surely apply to Delenn as well.) So while there are indications that the Minbari live somewhat longer than Humans, there is nothing to suggest that they live several times as long as Humans. I forget how old the Minbari leader in To Dream in the City of Sorrows is, but I know that he is (a) not that much more than 100 years old and (b) is unusually old even for a Minbari. On average I suspect they may live 20 or 30 Earth years lojnger than a Human.

Humans routinely live to 100 according to Franklin in the 2260s. (Hell, in the industiralized countries reaching 100 isn't rare even today, and it will probably come close to being routine for Baby Boomers who were pretty much the best-fed, best-immunized and beat-cared-for generation in human history, and are entering middle age in the midst of great technological advances. I have a great aunt who had none of those advantages except for the recent technology. She celebrated her 103rd birthday a couple of weeks ago. Hell, even Willard Scott has raised the age for on-air birthday greetings because there are too many 100-year-olds around. ) Ordinary advances in Human medical technology and theory probably would have increased the typical lifespan in the years between 2262 and 2362, when the aged Delenn interupts the educational broadcast. Add in knowledge acquired through membership in the IA and (perhaps) through the efforts to cure the Drakh plague and even a 150-year-old Delenn might not be unusal for either a Human or a Minbari.

Hard to tell what Delenn's eventual lifespan would have been. JMS's tatalizing hint about "her final journey, a quest involving Valen, though no one believes her" suggests to me that she pulls a Sinclair/Sheridan and disappears without leaving a corpse, perhaps to join John behind the Rim (in the place where no Shadows Fall), as the last of The One.

Regards,

Joe