Probably best answer yet.
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Why Is Earthforce Still Using Star Furies?
- Thread starter Dayton3
- Start date
Probably best answer yet.
crazyhorse
Anarchist
I think appearance is being mixed up with performance upgrades here.There is no real reason to change the basic shape,in fact shape has very little meaning in space anyway.Any improvements in armoury,engines,sensors ect would be easy enough to install into a basic chassis.
The fact that pilots would keep a familiar enviroment and have similiar flight capabilities would only be a bonus.
The fact that pilots would keep a familiar enviroment and have similiar flight capabilities would only be a bonus.
Indeed. In fact I'd say that Vintari's enthusiasm and respect for Starfuries even suggests that the Starfuries of 2271 are significantly better ships than the ones from the Earth-Minbari war, which couldn't hold a candle to much of anything, except seemingly whatever the Dilgar had been using!
Another question.
While I can accept them using Star Furies some 25 years after the Earth Minbari War............why is Earth still using Star Furies some FIFTY FIVE years later when the Centauri attack?
Sheridan has a vision of the coming war with the Centauri and you can see clearly more than one example of Star Furies engaged in combat.
Don't claim that "basic shape will never change".
Its over half a century after all.
While I can accept them using Star Furies some 25 years after the Earth Minbari War............why is Earth still using Star Furies some FIFTY FIVE years later when the Centauri attack?
Sheridan has a vision of the coming war with the Centauri and you can see clearly more than one example of Star Furies engaged in combat.
Don't claim that "basic shape will never change".
Its over half a century after all.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Do you really think that Galen is showing Sheridan an actual visual recording of a future attack? Or is it more likely that it's nothing but an illusiory conjecture created by a techno-mage to try to make a point?
How long have cars been running around with a frame and four tires; they might get a new exterior and new engine, but their basic shape is the same now as it has been for decades. Why should the basic shape change?
How long have cars been running around with a frame and four tires; they might get a new exterior and new engine, but their basic shape is the same now as it has been for decades. Why should the basic shape change?
Galahad
Regular
I'd have thought that Earth's priority after the war with the Minbari,would be to build the fleet back up numerically... because there were other threats about that were of a technological level that the starfury could handle, who might take advantage.
Isn't it mentioned that the fleet is only back up to pre-war levels by the time of season 1?
Now sure, there were technological developments such as the Omega...but the research for those had probably been going on prior to the Minbari war...not just as a direct result of it.
I think it's debatable just exactly how much tech development was going on in those years...perhaps that is why Earth was so interested in alien tech...because it knew just how much research time and resources had been lost during the "catch up" years.
Isn't it mentioned that the fleet is only back up to pre-war levels by the time of season 1?
Now sure, there were technological developments such as the Omega...but the research for those had probably been going on prior to the Minbari war...not just as a direct result of it.
I think it's debatable just exactly how much tech development was going on in those years...perhaps that is why Earth was so interested in alien tech...because it knew just how much research time and resources had been lost during the "catch up" years.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
And Earth do appear to have developed their technology by reverse engineering by the time B5 is set. They were given jumpgate technology by the Centauri, they "acquired" shadow technology and retro-fit it to some Omega class ships before devlopeing their own ships using that tech, the Victory class ships (Victory and Excalibur) were built using technology provided by the Vorlons and Minbari.
That sounds to me like a race whose own technology and science is not yet advanced enough to make genuine progress without the influence of other races. If that is the case, then it is not hard to see why the Fury might be still the standard single person fighter in use even 30 years hence.
We likewise don't know that Earth does'nt have more advanced fighter craft but just haven't deployed them to B5 by the time of TLT.
As far as Sheridan's dream/vision from Galen is concerned, I imagine Galen wanted Sheridan to know immediately that he was looking at Centauri and Earth ships fighting without having to explain that "... those small ships are what Earth fighters are going to look like in 30 years time".
That sounds to me like a race whose own technology and science is not yet advanced enough to make genuine progress without the influence of other races. If that is the case, then it is not hard to see why the Fury might be still the standard single person fighter in use even 30 years hence.
We likewise don't know that Earth does'nt have more advanced fighter craft but just haven't deployed them to B5 by the time of TLT.
As far as Sheridan's dream/vision from Galen is concerned, I imagine Galen wanted Sheridan to know immediately that he was looking at Centauri and Earth ships fighting without having to explain that "... those small ships are what Earth fighters are going to look like in 30 years time".
vacantlook
Super Moderator
GaribaldisHair said:
Well, would Galen even know what Earth fighters would look like in the future? Again, is Galen showing an actual recording of a real battle, or is it just a visual aid he and/or other techno-mages created to help Galen make his point? My guess is that it's the latter.
The future vision of New Yorks destruction by the Centauri from what I gathered was supposed to be an exact future of "what will be" if the Prince wasn't stopped.
Why wouldn't the vision of the battle that Sheridan saw be a precise vision of that future as well?
and I expect a veteran campaigner like Sheridan could probably pretty easily figure out who was on which side
Why wouldn't the vision of the battle that Sheridan saw be a precise vision of that future as well?
and I expect a veteran campaigner like Sheridan could probably pretty easily figure out who was on which side
vacantlook
Super Moderator
What specifically made you think that the two dreams Sheridan has are composed of visual recordings of the future?
Two types of earth fighters existed in 2261: Thunderbolts, for attacks into atmosphere and Star Furies for space combat. Star furies were the better for the latter: better than Thunderbolts, which left the pilot less freely oriented in space (because the Thunderbolt design featured sitting pilots).
Why would the design change? Simply saying that it would is futile. It is like saying that planes of the future will not feature two wings, because planes of the present feature two wings, and in the future they must feature a different number, by definition.
Galen seems to indicate strongly that what Sheridan is seeing is a recording of the future in the New York scene.
darth_librarian
Regular
This would imply that the Technomages have or have gained some means of looking forward (or backwards) in time. Given the capabilites of the great machine, this is not too suprising and an interesting development.
Galahad
Regular
There will only be a need to change the design of the starfury, when Earth advances sufficiently in propulsion/manouvering technology to warrant it. Having four wing pods greatly assists a thruster operated ship in terms of manouverability.
The Minbari don't appear to use directional thrusters...but their reactors and systems are a lot more advanced.
Is the Thunderbolt VTOL btw?
I've sometimes wondered how Sheridan landed it on Mars.
Galahad
Regular
I've also been swatting up on the Earthforce sourcebook. This suggests that the starfury programme has been running since 2161 and the first model... the Aries, came into service in 2171. It's basic shape back then consisted of a lateral wing with manouvering thrusters on the extremities and primary engines to the rear. As it's design was prone to cracking under continual stress it was slightly modified by the next model - The Flying Fox by 2180. By 2203 we begin to see the X wing formation emerge with the Tiger model, which still had it's primary engine rear mounted and it isn't until 30 years later in the Dilgar War that the Starfury physically becomes almost completely recognisable as it is by the the time of B5 with the Nova model.
The Aurora model which is in used throughout the series, came into being shortly before the Minbari War and is although more or less physically similar to the Nova, it is a generation ahead in terms of acceleration, maneverability, range and weapon control.
The starfury is considered superior to the Narn Frazi and the Centauri Sorin class fighters...but inferior to the Minbari Nial.
As it is in the premier league of fighters, there is less need for it to evolve rapidly.
If you look at it's physical evolution, you see that the design has become more efficient. Initially being replaced every 10 years, stretching to twenty, then thirty.
It's true the Thunderbolt has come in... but Earth intitally rejected the concept of an atmospherically capable fighter to focus on maneuverability against superior opponents. Now Earth has advanced to a certain point technologically, it obviously feels confident enough to sacrifice some of that maneuverability to add an extra dimension to it's military capability - a multi purpose fighter. In fact the Thunderbolt is describes as being only "slightly less" maneuverable on specs Ihave examined.
The Aurora model which is in used throughout the series, came into being shortly before the Minbari War and is although more or less physically similar to the Nova, it is a generation ahead in terms of acceleration, maneverability, range and weapon control.
The starfury is considered superior to the Narn Frazi and the Centauri Sorin class fighters...but inferior to the Minbari Nial.
As it is in the premier league of fighters, there is less need for it to evolve rapidly.
If you look at it's physical evolution, you see that the design has become more efficient. Initially being replaced every 10 years, stretching to twenty, then thirty.
It's true the Thunderbolt has come in... but Earth intitally rejected the concept of an atmospherically capable fighter to focus on maneuverability against superior opponents. Now Earth has advanced to a certain point technologically, it obviously feels confident enough to sacrifice some of that maneuverability to add an extra dimension to it's military capability - a multi purpose fighter. In fact the Thunderbolt is describes as being only "slightly less" maneuverable on specs Ihave examined.
Galen also seems to indicate strongly that he wants Sheridan to kill Vintari, but by the end of the story Sheridan seems convinced that he was lying about that, and I'm inclined to agree.
And in Crusade he indicates pretty strongly that the Well of Forever would be a useful place to go on the Excalibur's mission, which is shown to be a lie to mask his true motives later.
darth_librarian
Regular
Galen frequently lets his personal feelings and needs get in the way of his Technomage duties, you saw it in A Call to Arms, and in the books.
Makes him even cooler.
Makes him even cooler.
crazyhorse
Anarchist
I agree that just because people say something doesn't make it true.Let's face it everything that Bester says is treated with scepticism.Just because Galen is seen as a good guy doesn't mean he's telling the truth (or even that he's a good guy 
).
Most other races ships seem to undergo very little asthetic design change from fighters to cruisers.Earthforce seems to have settled on the Warlock design,the changes in EA ships design seem to have come from the need for artificial gravity yet they are all that long box shape.
Were the Minbari Sharlins seen greeting B4 not instantly recognisable?
The Centauri ship from ITB looks pretty much like those in TLT.
).Most other races ships seem to undergo very little asthetic design change from fighters to cruisers.Earthforce seems to have settled on the Warlock design,the changes in EA ships design seem to have come from the need for artificial gravity yet they are all that long box shape.
Were the Minbari Sharlins seen greeting B4 not instantly recognisable?
The Centauri ship from ITB looks pretty much like those in TLT.
KoshFan
Regular
To the point that some people griped that the design hadn't changed in 1000 years! Lurker's Guide seems to be down, but I recall JMS having to point out to some people that there were some differences.
Galahad
Regular
I'm well miffed that my swatting up for everyone else's benefit to get a comprehensive answer, has been skipped!
As for the Minbari cruisers, there is a lot you can't tell just by looking at them.
1,000 years is an extremely long time. We don't even know if those ships had artificial gravity. Sure, Delenn says in Matters of Hono(u)r that they've had it for some time, but that doesn't give us a timeline.
I've occasionally mused upon the irony that Babylon 4 with it's rotational gravity, helped further the Minbari understanding of gravitational technologies... although it is also true that their original starbase also seemed to rotate.
As for the Minbari cruisers, there is a lot you can't tell just by looking at them.
1,000 years is an extremely long time. We don't even know if those ships had artificial gravity. Sure, Delenn says in Matters of Hono(u)r that they've had it for some time, but that doesn't give us a timeline.
I've occasionally mused upon the irony that Babylon 4 with it's rotational gravity, helped further the Minbari understanding of gravitational technologies... although it is also true that their original starbase also seemed to rotate.
