Shaal Mayan
Regular
Ok I watched this ep recently on DVD and a question popped into my head when Delenn is talking to the grey council member he says if he ever remembers he must be killed.Now minbari don't kill minbari why was this in there
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And the sky full of stars
- Thread starter Shaal Mayan
- Start date
Shaal Mayan
Regular
I know that Sinclair was human but the grey council says he has Valen's soul so why they order Delenn kill someone who has their greatest leader's souls ?I am confused .
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
They didn't think he was Valen's descendant. As far as they know no Minbari has or could have a Human descendant.
That Valen had originally been a member of some alien species, they knew. That he had been Human they didn't know. They had no idea who the Humans were. They didn't know that Valen's prophecies were pointing them to his own original race.
Nor were they all convinced he had Valen's soul. The Triluminary made they suspect that Sinclair (and the other Human pilots) somehow had Minbar souls somehow reborn into Human bodies, because it normally the Triluminary only glowed for descendants of Valen. But they weren't certain. All they knew was that possibility was there, and as long as it was they could not wipe out the entire Human race. If it turned out the Humans did have Minbari souls this would be an unimaginable crime. They couldn't risk it.
Some of the council believed the soul story. Some didn't. Of the ones who thought Sinclair had a Minbari sould, some believed it was Valen's, some that it was some great Minbari soul, possibly Valen's and others thought it was just some garden variety Minbari. In the years between the end of the War and 2258 people changed their minds, and switched positions. Delenn is aboard B5 to find out if Sinclair really has a Minbari soul. In the meantime, it is desperately important to them that they keep this whole soul story quiet. Their own people are not ready to hear it, and they certainly don't trust the Humans with this knowledge. Thus if Sinclair regains his memory before Delenn has rendered her judgement, and the council has finished puzzling out the various prophecies, he is to die. They can rationalize that they don't know he's a Minbari, so they aren't breaking Valen's law. Even if they find out later they were wrong, they won't have done that much damage, and can argue that killing him "seemed like a good idea at the time." You can do that sort of thing when you're only killing one person, and when that person actually represents a clear and present danger to your society. It becomes harder to pull off when you're about to wipe out an entire planetful of possible Minbaris who have no ability whatsoever even to defend themselves, much less to threaten you.
Regards,
Joe
That Valen had originally been a member of some alien species, they knew. That he had been Human they didn't know. They had no idea who the Humans were. They didn't know that Valen's prophecies were pointing them to his own original race.
Nor were they all convinced he had Valen's soul. The Triluminary made they suspect that Sinclair (and the other Human pilots) somehow had Minbar souls somehow reborn into Human bodies, because it normally the Triluminary only glowed for descendants of Valen. But they weren't certain. All they knew was that possibility was there, and as long as it was they could not wipe out the entire Human race. If it turned out the Humans did have Minbari souls this would be an unimaginable crime. They couldn't risk it.
Some of the council believed the soul story. Some didn't. Of the ones who thought Sinclair had a Minbari sould, some believed it was Valen's, some that it was some great Minbari soul, possibly Valen's and others thought it was just some garden variety Minbari. In the years between the end of the War and 2258 people changed their minds, and switched positions. Delenn is aboard B5 to find out if Sinclair really has a Minbari soul. In the meantime, it is desperately important to them that they keep this whole soul story quiet. Their own people are not ready to hear it, and they certainly don't trust the Humans with this knowledge. Thus if Sinclair regains his memory before Delenn has rendered her judgement, and the council has finished puzzling out the various prophecies, he is to die. They can rationalize that they don't know he's a Minbari, so they aren't breaking Valen's law. Even if they find out later they were wrong, they won't have done that much damage, and can argue that killing him "seemed like a good idea at the time." You can do that sort of thing when you're only killing one person, and when that person actually represents a clear and present danger to your society. It becomes harder to pull off when you're about to wipe out an entire planetful of possible Minbaris who have no ability whatsoever even to defend themselves, much less to threaten you.
Regards,
Joe
KoshFan
Regular
The Minbari knew that Valen was formerly of another race? "Minbari not born of Minbari," yes, but I always thought that they felt he was simply some miraculous being. Having the Vorlons there to confirm his story would help that aspect.
But come to think of it, how would they know what the chrysalis was and how it worked? So you're probably right . . . and because they were so big on purity, only the presence of the Vorlons granted him the status he got.
But come to think of it, how would they know what the chrysalis was and how it worked? So you're probably right . . . and because they were so big on purity, only the presence of the Vorlons granted him the status he got.
hypatia
Regular
But I can see how it would make them hesitate. After all, if you THINK you might be about to violate your society's first and foremost rule, you might be likely to hesitate a bit.
Although, when it came down to it, some Minbari dodged that little rule very neatly later in the series, didn't they?
Although, when it came down to it, some Minbari dodged that little rule very neatly later in the series, didn't they?
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Yes, I think they did, but that is only an opinion, which I probably should have made clearer.
Still, their subsequent persecution of his descendants and their obsession with "purity" later don't make sense to me if they thought he was some kind of miraculous being.
There is also the question of Valen's wife. If she was Catherine Sakai, as both To Dream in the City of Sorrows and one of the comic book hint she may have been, then the secret of the Chrysalis device may get out. Because Catherine was certainly Human when she disppeared into the rift in Sector 14, and it seems unlikely that Valen would be able to find her under conditions of total secrecy and get her transformed into a Minbari without anyone knowing. (And she certainly would have had to undergo such a transformation in order to mate with Valen and produce offspring who blended into the Minbari population.)
Certainly the Minbari would have known that Valen was some kind of outsider. They don't seem to have been big on off-world colonies, and 1,000 years ago they probably had fewer of them. Since Minbari society (especially prior to Valen) is all about family, clan and caste, it would not have taken them long to find out that Valen wasn't related to anybody and that there were no records of him anywhere prior to his mysterious appearance with Babylon 4.
Regards,
Joe
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
i am rereading _to dream_, and i thought about that the other nite. sakai having to go through the chrysalis stuff to mate successfully with valen is not necessarily true. delenn and sheridan had a child, remember. as i understand it, the triluminary affects the DNA, so truly, one becomes half human/half minbari. therefore, there is enough genetic similarity to produce offspring, i.e., david sheridan.
however, what i wondered about was the xenophobia of the minbari, and how they would have handled valen marrying a human.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
The show suggests that the opposite is true, and that even Delenn is virtually 100% human, despite retaining her head bone. Remember her asking Ivanova about cramps? That would indicate that her entire reproductive system has been changed (and that the Minbari original was very different.) It would also be a violation of everything we know about DNA to suggest that a "Minbari/Human Hybrid" could mate with anything successfully. There would have to be essentially no difference at all between Human and Minbari DNA for such a mating to take place - in which case there would be no need for a Chrysalis device (except for cosmetic changes which could be more easily acheived with surgery.) Humans and chimpanzees share over 95% of their DNA, yet Humans and chimps could not mate. Humans and aliens certainly wouldn't be able to. (As Carl Sagan said long ago, speaking about Mr. Spock, "You'd have a better chance of breeding with a petunia")
David Sheridan is a Human, pure and simple. As were both his parents. And Valen's children would be 100% Minbari, albeit with a small section of DNA - which is in fact common to both species - that would bear a Human stamp that never evolved on Minbar.
Regards,
Joe
Teekas Dragon
Regular
I can't remember the exacts of the conversation or the exact ep that this happened in. Delenn was shot (and John chased the guy down and kicked his @$$). Later Franklin was talking to John about how he didn't know how well she was going to recover because she was pregnant and he didn't know how her body was going to react because she was no longer minbari and she wasn't human. I took this to mean that she was pretty much 50% human 50% minbari instead of her being mostly human with a minbari head bone. So if that's true then wouldn't it be the same for someone who was human to be transformed into a minbari (ie Sinclair)???
I don't know, maybe i've got it all confused but that's my 2 cents worth.
Sinc.
Jerome
I don't know, maybe i've got it all confused but that's my 2 cents worth.
Sinc.
Jerome
Oatley1
Beyond the rim
That was also my impression - that she was neither fully Human or Mimbari, but a hybrid of the two species.
This leads me to another question - how did the triluminary transform her into a hybrid? Did it activate her human genes that she got from her descent from Valen/Sinclair, or was it something else?
This leads me to another question - how did the triluminary transform her into a hybrid? Did it activate her human genes that she got from her descent from Valen/Sinclair, or was it something else?
Teekas Dragon
Regular
I have no clue about this. I'm pretty sure the triluminary came from draal because of the boxes that were carried onboard by zatharas before they departed, but as to how they worked for valen, and then how they worked for delenn i'm not sure. That's a point of tech that i don't believe was ever explained, or if it was i never heard it. If anyone can explain this besides JMS it will be you Joe. Any ideas???
Sinc.
Jerome
Sinc.
Jerome
Nothing to do with the thread but just remembered something.
I'm not sure Chimps have such a high DNA resemblances to Humans however pigs do, very high.
Today pigs heart valves are being implanted into human hearts and victims of severe burns get their skin replaced with that of pigs (look around you and if you see someone with darker, hairier patch of skin, you'll know where it came from.
And on the DNA lane, here another quick info: Cows and Rabbits are, genetically, very close. So close that when needed to ship cow's embryos scientists use rabbits since they can carry up to 10( or was it 12) embryo at once and they take less place then a cow.
Just thought you should know.
And regarding this post I'm partly with you Joe, Delenn reproductive systems should be that of a human, BUT this is a sci-fi show and we don't know the technology used.
As far as we know Delenn is a hybrid of a sort, one that has some human organs and some Minbari and even some NEW organs that make the whole thing works.
I don't believe she became all human except for the head bone, doesn't make sense to me.
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Love, Only love.
Shaal Mayan
Regular
I think it could possibly be Confessions and Lamantations .I seem to remember a line like that too but the episode name escapes me.As for Delenn I think she is partly human and patly minbari cause in one ep she states this that she is part of each race. EDIT I think it is in Atonement and in one of the fifth season eps as well where she makes this statement regarding her biology .
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Pigs and Humans do not have a very high percentage of shared DNA. Pigs do happen to have heart structures that greatly resemble Human organs, and they are of about the right size, so they're useful in medicine. The rabbit/cow thing is based on similar facts. Pig skin and flesh is also very similar to Human, and is frequently used as a substitute in medical research. (And, according to South Pacific cannibals, and disaster survivors who have been reduced to cannibalism, Human flesh tastes like pork. To this day SPAM remains a popular dish among formerly cannibal tribes in the area, at least according to legend. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Could be worse. We could taste like chicken.)
But we do know that this is a science fiction show that actually has some respect for science. And we know enough about genetics to understand that you either cannot produce offspring or at least cannot produce fertile offspring, by mating two completely different species that both come from this planet. A 99.9% match gets you a mule. A 50% match won't even get you a pregnancy. How likely is it that two species produced by completely different evolutionary histories on worlds orbiting two different suns are going to be able to interbreed with only a partial change in genetics? Franklin may not be speaking with scientific precision when he tells John that Delenn's pregnancy might be dangerous. He's simply aware that there are unknowns involved because the doesn't understand the transformation process, or what Minbari traits might still be expressed through the portion of Human DNA that is identical to Minbari DNA. And since Delenn isn't exactly a molecular biologist or a genetic engineer, I think we can safely dismiss anything she has to say on the subject.
I just don't see how she could have become pregnant by a Human without being essentially Human herself. That doesn't make sense to me. As the sign at Cal Tech says, "Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Regards,
Joe
But we do know that this is a science fiction show that actually has some respect for science. And we know enough about genetics to understand that you either cannot produce offspring or at least cannot produce fertile offspring, by mating two completely different species that both come from this planet. A 99.9% match gets you a mule. A 50% match won't even get you a pregnancy. How likely is it that two species produced by completely different evolutionary histories on worlds orbiting two different suns are going to be able to interbreed with only a partial change in genetics? Franklin may not be speaking with scientific precision when he tells John that Delenn's pregnancy might be dangerous. He's simply aware that there are unknowns involved because the doesn't understand the transformation process, or what Minbari traits might still be expressed through the portion of Human DNA that is identical to Minbari DNA. And since Delenn isn't exactly a molecular biologist or a genetic engineer, I think we can safely dismiss anything she has to say on the subject.
I just don't see how she could have become pregnant by a Human without being essentially Human herself. That doesn't make sense to me. As the sign at Cal Tech says, "Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Regards,
Joe
I believed Delenn said she was partly minbari and partly human because she's now genetically human but she still thinks and feels like a minbari. She was born and raised there so the way she thinks can't be turned into how humans think. Basically, her body's human but her mind's minbari.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
i just don't think delenn became fully human. i don't recall off the top of my head how genetically similar to species have to be to produce offspring. in zoological terms, i think they have to be of the same genus (like horses and zebras in the genus of equis).
physical traits are not indicative of how close two species are genetically. a lion could successfully mate with a lynx because they are in the same genus, and thus, are genetically similar enough. so, humans are homo sapiens; minbari could be homo minbarien? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
it's obvious that delenn's reproductive system was changed to human; however, it's also pretty obvious that minbari were mammalian to begin with. something like this would be impossible with narns, for example, who are marsupials. so, her reproductive system may have changed, but she still could have retained other minbari physical traits, which she likely did since she lived to be over 140.
however, using that paradigm, would the triluminary have changed sinclair's reproductive system? if so, it's not likely sinclair could have impregnated sakai.
physical traits are not indicative of how close two species are genetically. a lion could successfully mate with a lynx because they are in the same genus, and thus, are genetically similar enough. so, humans are homo sapiens; minbari could be homo minbarien? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
it's obvious that delenn's reproductive system was changed to human; however, it's also pretty obvious that minbari were mammalian to begin with. something like this would be impossible with narns, for example, who are marsupials. so, her reproductive system may have changed, but she still could have retained other minbari physical traits, which she likely did since she lived to be over 140.
however, using that paradigm, would the triluminary have changed sinclair's reproductive system? if so, it's not likely sinclair could have impregnated sakai.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Delenn isn't mammalian and the Narn aren't marsupial. They are like their Earth counterparts, but they didn't evolve from the same genetic pool as Earth life did, so they are not members of those orders. They merely descend from lifeforms that adapted in a similar way to occupy similar ecological niches on similar planets.
JMS made it clear at the outset that there can be no interspecies breeding in the B5 universe. If Humans and Minbari were as close as you suggest, there wouldn't need to be a Chrysalis device or a transformation.
The whole point of the argument above is that Sakai would also have to have undergone a Chrysalis transformation (into a 100% Minbari) in order for the two to have children. (Not to mention for those children to ever have been accepted into Minbari society.) And it is the Chrysalis device, not the Triluminary, that produces the change. The Triluminary is a necessary component in the Chrysalis device, but by itself it can't change a member of one species into another, and it is usually used for other things entirely.
Regards,
Joe
JMS made it clear at the outset that there can be no interspecies breeding in the B5 universe. If Humans and Minbari were as close as you suggest, there wouldn't need to be a Chrysalis device or a transformation.
The whole point of the argument above is that Sakai would also have to have undergone a Chrysalis transformation (into a 100% Minbari) in order for the two to have children. (Not to mention for those children to ever have been accepted into Minbari society.) And it is the Chrysalis device, not the Triluminary, that produces the change. The Triluminary is a necessary component in the Chrysalis device, but by itself it can't change a member of one species into another, and it is usually used for other things entirely.
Regards,
Joe
