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Another reason Lennier probably didn't like Sheridan in the end...

Recoil

Recoil

Regular
...Sheridan always called him the wrong name!

I don't know why this just clicked until now, but Sheridan in many of the Season 3 and 4 episodes, appeared to address Lennier correctly. Now I'm not sure of Minbari naming conventions, but it seems that they have one "Name."

Lennier
Delenn
Lennon
Neroon
etc....

And their "last name" seems to have something to do with their clan. Lennier's full name is Lennier of the Third Feign of Chudomo (yea, spelled wrong I'm sure). So he doesn't really have a last name, just a first name.

Most of the third season, Sheridan calls him "Mr. Lennier" which, from everything I can tell, is a completely wrong way to address him. That's like calling me "Mr Chuck."

Anyone agree here? Does this seem wrong? I know there is an obvious parallel to "Mr Spock" who has just the one name as well. Or maybe he had two and you couldn't pronounce the other or something. Part of me says it wouldn't be in the show if it was wrong, but the other part says that he is calling him Mister, followed by his first name.
 
Hmm. That is an interesting nitpick-point, indeed. Did he call Neroon "Mr. Neroon"? I honestly can't recall.

The only other explanation I might have (other than he addressed female Minbari and male Minbari differently) might be if he's slipping into military talk. "Mister" was something a commander called those under him, right?

But of course Lennier was of the religious caste. So if that was put in on purpose, then Sheridan was doing it to annoy him. :p

I really don't know, that's a good question.
 
I have a certain clique of friends who refer to one another in that way as a term of endearment.. we sound a bit like a failed Tarantino crime gang:

Mr Rob
Mr Mike
Mr Nick
 
It's not just Lennier and Spock, anyone remember Star Trek II, where everyone refers to Saavik as Mr. Saavik despite her being a Vulcan and female?

[Edit:] Actually I think what it probably means is that Sheridan has unconsciously promoted Lennier to the rank of Lieutenant, since he's the guy he directly gives orders to on the White Star, and ordinarily this would be someone with the rank of Lieutenant. I suspect this comes to Babylon 5 from Hornblower via Trek. [Edit]
 
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When Lennier becomes part of the White Star crew under Sheridan's command, Sheridan automatically addresses him was he would any other officer below the rank of Commander (or the equivalent), as "Mr." Since Minbari don't use their family names except in very formal declarations ("Delenn of the family Mir") it is natural that he would pair "Mr" with what is effectively Lennier's only name. (Sinclair usually addressed Ivanova as "Lt. Commander" - a form which would almost never be used - to maintain the distinction between his own rank and hers.) In addressing a officer with a "modifier" as part of his rank grade, the modifier is almost invariably dropped. A LTCR is addresses as "commander", a Lt. Col. as "Colonel" and all grades of General are simply addressed as "general". In the U.S. Navy - and I think the British as well - Lt. Cdrs and below are all normally addressed as Mr. or - presumably - Ms. I think the Trek thing was an effort to acheive a "unisex" form of address, treating the "mister" as a mere formality. (Rather like female lawyers following their male counterparts in appending the prententious and utterly ahistorical "esquire" to their names.)

So in addressing Lennier as "Mr. Lennier" Sheridan was according him the proper respect due an officer serving in his position. (I don't think Lennier's job on the White Star is so clear cut that we can assign a specific rank to it, though - especially given the jumble of ranks JMS has Earthforce using to begin with. Functionally is the executive officer, which could be anything from full lieutenant to commander, depending on the size of the ship and the crew.) In any case, I don't think this is grounds for Lennier to resent Sheridan, who by so calling him is including Lennier as a full member of his "crew" and adding a specific title of respect and military courtesy.

The Third Fane of Chodomo is not Lennier's family. A fane is a temple. Lennier choses to identify himself by his affiliation with a religious organization rather than his biological family. Delenn implies that religious vocations take precedence over family ties among the Minbair, saying that after her mother joined a religious sisterhood that the two rarely saw one another. Lennier also speaks of having been raised in the temple, so he may have been an orphan, or may have been adopted into the temple.

Regards,

Joe
 
I have to agree with those who are saying that Sheridan was being respectful when he called him, "Mister". I don't recall him addressing Lennier that way when he wasn't speaking as Captain or giving a command. Besides, if he really wanted to annoy Lennier all he'd have to do is make a move on his girl. :D Oh... wait, he did that!
 
That all makes sense. It stuck me as odd at first, but given the above explanations, seems like the right thing to do. Guess that just leaves Sheridan nailing Delenn as his reason for not liking him. :p
 
Not to mention Corwin is always 'Lieutenant' and never 'Mr. Corwin'..

Then of course there's 'Mr. Garibaldi' and 'Mr. Allen' (has a better ring to it than 'Chief Warrant Officer' I suppose).
 
Recoil said:
That all makes sense. It stuck me as odd at first, but given the above explanations, seems like the right thing to do. Guess that just leaves Sheridan nailing Delenn as his reason for not liking him. :p
Click to expand...

Not only did Sheridan nail here, but they made him stand outside their door while it was happening.

Frankly, I'm surprised he didn't slit their throats while they slept.
 
GKarsEye said:
Not only did Sheridan nail here, but they made him stand outside their door while it was happening.

Frankly, I'm surprised he didn't slit their throats while they slept.
Click to expand...


Yea no kidding. Talk about rubbing it in. (so to speak)
 
B5_Obsessed said:
Of course, Marcus was always addressed as Marcus, never Mr. Cole, so go figure.
Click to expand...

That could be explained by way of Marcus' eccentricity as a character.

Also, Ivanova wasn't comfortable with him intitially precisely because he didn't fit obviously into a tight military structure (and the rangers at the time weren't perceived as a military force... at least not by the humans).

Marcus was a free spirit and may have enjoyed being referred to on a first name basis. By the time the Shadow War was in full swing, he had become endeared to the command staff and so they continued to refer to him on a first name basis as a term of affection, force of habit and/or as the exception to the rule.

Note, he always referred to the Captain by rank when in Sheridan's presence...

I'm a bit sketchy on what follows...

He called the other main characters by first name... except curiously for Mr Garibaldi.

Note that Lennier always calls people by their official title, even when he has formed a friendship with them... with the exception of Marcus and Vir.

How we relate to people often shapes how they in turn relate to us.

I only go by my full name when form filling and writing to official bodies like the Government.

Everybody else, even my work colleagues and superiors... call me by my shortened name.

You can always tell the people who only know be my association.
 
B5_Obsessed said:
Of course, Marcus was always addressed as Marcus, never Mr. Cole, so go figure.
Click to expand...

Marcus was never in even the informal chain of command the way Lennier was. Also, did Marcus ever "serve" as a member of a White Star crew under anyone but Ivanova? She would never have called Marcus anything other than Marcus, but Sheridan might well have addressed him as "Mr. Cole" if he had ever functioned as his executive officer during a mission.

Not to mention Corwin is always 'Lieutenant' and never 'Mr. Corwin'...
Click to expand...

But he was almost never addressed as "Lt. Corwin" - although that would also have been proper military courtesy. Typically, however, a senior officer addresses a junior by rank only or rank & last name for those above a certain grade ("Commander", "Commander Ivanova") and a junior office by rank only or as "Mr. Smith".

Regards,

Joe
 
Sheridan could have called Marcus "Mr. Marcus", but then that would make him sound like a character on a show for preschoolers. :LOL:
 
I don't recall Marcus' surname name ever being spoken on screen ... twice in Matters of Honour he told others (Delenn and Sheridan if memory serves) that he was "just Marcus", although he was creditted as Marcus Cole ... again IIRC.
 
Once at the beginning of season four, the computer is telling Ivanova how many messages she's got and from whom. One is stated as coming from Marcus Cole. That, I do believe is the only time his surname is used in the show.
 
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