Another War WIthout End question

[Sinclair]

I've been rewatching the series and got to WWE Part 2. In the scene where Sheridan is in the cell on Centauri Prime (in the future), Delenn walks in. To refresh your memories the conversation goes like this:

---------------------------------------

Delenn: I didn't tell them anything. They tried to make me, but I didn't. There's nothing they can do to me. They know that now, so they say they're allowing us one last moment together before...

Sheridan: What?

Delenn: It's alright, John. I accepted this fate a long time ago. They cannot harm me. I'm not afraid; not if you are with me. Our son is safe.

Sheridan: Son?

Delenn: That's all that matters. John, I love you.

Sheridan: Delenn, just listen to me. This may not make any sense, but I am not supposed to be here. I'm not really here. The last thing I remember I was on the White Star, and my time stabilizer was hit, and suddenly I was here.

Delenn: Valen's name. It's true, isn't it? I can see it in your eyes. You told me long ago that you had seen this moment in our future, but, until now, but I never really believed.

-------------------------------------

It goes on for a bit more, but that's the only part that's really essential to the question I'm asking.

I'd never really thought too much into this conversation before, but now I have and I'm confused about something. Just who did Delenn actually think she was talking to: the Sheridan from her time? If so, and she realized it was a Sheridan from the past, what happened to the Sheridan from her time? What was she blabbering about that 'she didn't tell them anything', and 'i accepted this fate a long time ago'? Is this covered in some book, or have I just completely missed or forgotten something from the series?

 

[vacantlook]

Is this covered in some book...?

Provided my memory serves from when I read it however many years ago it's been now, yes, a good portion of it is in the last book of the Centauri trilogy.

 

[Sinclair]

Thanks, I couldn't for the life of me figure out what she was talking about. There may come a day when I read the books.

 

[vacantlook]

I've had varying degrees of enjoyment from the books I've read so far, but I do recommend reading them.

I still have to get around to reading the PsiCorps trilogy and The Shadow Within.

 

[KoshFan]

Yes. She assumed she was talking to the Sheridan of her timeline (who would have understood her words). Then she remembered the story he told her years ago, and realized that that moment in time had come.

 

[Elric]

The way I understood it was that when he went forward in time, he replaced the Sheriden from that time. However, I'm not sure the Sheriden who was originally from that time frame went to!

All this time stuff makes my head hurt!

 

[GKarsEye]

Note that during these time flashes the person doesn't actually time travel, just the consciousness, more like an observer. So the future Sheridan didn't actually "go" anywhere.

 

[Drachasor]

Note that during these time flashes the person doesn't actually time travel, just the consciousness, more like an observer. So the future Sheridan didn't actually "go" anywhere.

Those are the time flashes. Sheridan is unstuck in time and actually travelling in time. Londo knows this (recall the "welcome back from the abyss" comment). Londo also recognizes this is part of the chance to redeem himself. He was told one of his chances would be to "not kill the man who is already dead."

-Drachasor

 

[Jan]

Note that during these time flashes the person doesn't actually time travel, just the consciousness, more like an observer. So the future Sheridan didn't actually "go" anywhere.

Then where was Sheridan's body when he got hit by the energy surge if only his consiousness traveled? It's one of those headache-making questions because you've either got the 'present' Sheridan in some kind of limbo or you've got the 'future' Sheridan in same.

Jan

 

[B5_Obsessed]

The future Sheridan was older, although it was hardly noticeable in WWE Pt 1. You can spot the grey better in WWE Pt 2. So, it's Sheridan's younger self peering out of his older eyes that Delenn sees. As for younger Sheridan's body, ummm. Gotta go.

 

[GKarsEye]

Yes, the dissappearance of Sheridan's body is confusing. I think it's a logical inconsistency. It would make more sense to me if the body would just be lifeless or something, or even exchanging consciousness with future Sheridan.

Londo knows this (recall the "welcome back from the abyss" comment).

Londo knows nothing of time flashes as he's never been aboard Babylon 4. The comment was made regarding Sheridan having been knocked out by the guards. The fact that it works well within the context of the time traveling/flashing is a literary (if the term can be applied to a TV show) device.

 

[Sindatur]

How do you account for Sinclair getting flung across the deck when he touched the "One" in Babylon Squared (And show from a different perspective in WWE)? Who did he touch? Sinclair did the touching, so it couldn't be Sinclair, since Sinclair that flew across the deck was using his body, and Sheridan and Delenn, likewise were using their bodies in other places

 

[GKarsEye]

I thought it was clear, from WWE2, that it was Delenn in the blue suit at the time. Given who had the stabilizers and all that, it can only be her.

However, it is my belief that Sinclair flying back was back when JMS planned the person in the suit to be unstuck-in-time-traveling Sinclair, and that force was the result of someone making contact with his future self.

But with what came out, I guess he flew back just because Delenn was time-shifting and had some sort of dangerous, unstable energy.

 

[Sindatur]

I agree with everything you said, so the summation is that Sheridan didn't have that effect on Delenn On Centauri Prime because he had settled into Future Sheridan's body, while future Delenn (involved in stealing the Whitestar) was still in an "unstuck" state and was not occupying her body in another time frame when Sinclair touched her spectral image?

Damn, this still really can give you headache if you think to hard on it.

 

[GKarsEye]

Yeah, I guess. Frankly, I just don't think it makes any sense, and if it sounds arrogant that I'm blaming the writing instead of my own inability to figure it out- well my arrogance should be nothing new around here.

 

[Drachasor]

Londo knows this (recall the "welcome back from the abyss" comment).

Londo knows nothing of time flashes as he's never been aboard Babylon 4. The comment was made regarding Sheridan having been knocked out by the guards. The fact that it works well within the context of the time traveling/flashing is a literary (if the term can be applied to a TV show) device.

Isn't Sheridan dead at that point though? That's after his time, isn't it?

-Drachasor

 

[GKarsEye]

Well I'm not sure what you mean. Certainly it's after his "death" and resurrection at Z'Ha Dum. But it's before his actual death three years later (Sleeping In Light).

Yes, Sheridan is "the one who is already dead" that Londo must save in order to redeem his soul as prophecied by Louaxana Troi, either because his body actually died for a bit on Z'Ha Dum or because his life at that point (2017) had a specific expiration date.

 

[deaded]

I have had extensive experience in time travel and each time I travel to a new time my traveling consciousness suppresses the consciousness living in that time. Yes, it's a bit disorienting but you get used to it.

 

[RMcD]

Yes, Sheridan is "the one who is already dead" that Londo must save in order to redeem his soul as prophecied by Louaxana Troi, either because his body actually died for a bit on Z'Ha Dum or because his life at that point (2017) had a specific expiration date.

No, Morden is the one who is already dead. In 'In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum' Sheridan points at the screen and says 'according to Earth Force records he is supposed to be dead. Can a dead man object?' underlining the point (and in the gag reel Ed Wasser actually keels over )

The tragedy is that, as well as squandering his first three unspecified opportunities to redeem himself, Londo also squanders the subsequent two, despite being specifically warned against them - by failing to save G'Kar's eye and by killing Morden. It is only the very last one, at the end, surrendering to his greatest fear and laying down his life, that he actually manages to acheive.

 

[vacantlook]

No, Morden is the one who is already dead.

It makes vastly more sense for the one who is already dead to be Sheridan considering he actually died on Z'ha'dum and only still walks because Lorien extended the final second of his life for twenty years. Londo's directive to save Sheridan was one done for if Sheridan was killed at the hands of the Centauri, the Interstellar Alliance would have chewed the Centauri alive for it. Note how Londo realizes that though he's taken some action to try and smuggle Sheridan and Delenn of Centauri Prime, he knows that his actions have failed when he feels the Keeper beginning to wake up, and it is that in knowing of his failure to save Sheridian that he then proceeds to his third and final option: to allow G'Kar to kill him and allow the way he foresaw his death decades prior to actually come to happen.

And to go straight to the source:...

jms post

Refa was never already dead, so it can't be him. Dead is dead,
and the only one who fits that description would be Sheridan.

jms