Recoil
Regular
I guess I should have said "generally" speaking. For the most part there are two camps from what I've been reading/hearing. Of course there are always exceptions, but you get the gist of it...
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Anyone still watching Lost?
- Thread starter Sinclair
- Start date
I guess I should have said "generally" speaking. For the most part there are two camps from what I've been reading/hearing. Of course there are always exceptions, but you get the gist of it...
Sindatur
Regular
Found this on ABC LOST Site, supposedly words from someone at Bad Robot with his take and clarifying things. Don't know the original source other than that. It makes sense to me. Rousseau is mispelled several times, so don't know if that's a transcribing error or an indication someone made it up, but, it does make sense with what we saw, and helps clarify things, even if it's only someone's theory, and not real information from a Bad Robot employee who is on the inside and knows real information.
http://forum.lostpedia.com/someone-bad-robots-take-finale-t59261.html?
First ...
The Island:
It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.
Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.
Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.
Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.
Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.
In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...
(Conitnued next post)
http://forum.lostpedia.com/someone-bad-robots-take-finale-t59261.html?
First ...
The Island:
It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.
Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.
Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.
Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.
Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.
In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...
(Conitnued next post)
Last edited:
Sindatur
Regular
Sideways World:
Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.
The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.
It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.
How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.
But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.
They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).
A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.
But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.
In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.
Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.
The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.
It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.
How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.
But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.
They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).
A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.
But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.
In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.
GKarsEye
Regular
Good summary. I pretty much interpreted stuff the same way.
Perspective time: Lost is really just an action/adventure show that delves into more crazy stuff sometimes. Anyone who's so devastated by the last season doesn't feel that way I guess, and demanded or expected something else.. I don't know what exactly.. and are reacting to hype compared to on-screen action.
Frankly, I find declarations of "I wasted 6 years" or whatever to be pretty infantile. Are people really watching a whole TV show as just a long introduction for that last episode, or do you tune in weekly for the entertainment? If the latter- which, you know, is how this is supposed to work- then nothing is "wasted," because, to quote The Gladiator, "Were you not entertained?"
Now anyone thinking they were ever gonna get some brilliant artistic film-making with plot or character beyond a solid, entertaining adventure show- you need to expand your viewing habits and expectations. On the very same night of the Lost finale, Treme had a new episode with beautiful character moments and situations, and Breaking Bad aired the oddest, boldest two-man episode of TV since Intersections In Real Time. Those are the shows where you're going to find you "art" and whatever.
Perspective time: Lost is really just an action/adventure show that delves into more crazy stuff sometimes. Anyone who's so devastated by the last season doesn't feel that way I guess, and demanded or expected something else.. I don't know what exactly.. and are reacting to hype compared to on-screen action.
Frankly, I find declarations of "I wasted 6 years" or whatever to be pretty infantile. Are people really watching a whole TV show as just a long introduction for that last episode, or do you tune in weekly for the entertainment? If the latter- which, you know, is how this is supposed to work- then nothing is "wasted," because, to quote The Gladiator, "Were you not entertained?"
Now anyone thinking they were ever gonna get some brilliant artistic film-making with plot or character beyond a solid, entertaining adventure show- you need to expand your viewing habits and expectations. On the very same night of the Lost finale, Treme had a new episode with beautiful character moments and situations, and Breaking Bad aired the oddest, boldest two-man episode of TV since Intersections In Real Time. Those are the shows where you're going to find you "art" and whatever.
B5_Obsessed
Regular
Mostly my take on it too. Although I hadn't given as much thought to what Ben's "unfinished business" might be, I like that interpretation a lot. The only trouble I have has to do with Richard, who I'm pretty sure was one of the first one's to come into the Dharma camp after the Purge, which, along with his initial recruitment of young Ben, made it appear that he was involved in the planning all along.
Kara Baxter
Regular
ok i didn't get any of that stuff but ok..
and what do you mean by 'linked' vs 'not linked'
is it because a person was in season ONE and therefore linked??
and what do you mean by 'linked' vs 'not linked'
is it because a person was in season ONE and therefore linked??
Sindatur
Regular
Well, not me, I just posted what someone else wrote, but yea, think of Daniel Faraday telling Desmond to find a Constant. The folks at the Church, who weren't in S1 would likely be the "Constants" of the S1 one folks (Libbe/Hurley, Rose/Bernard, Juliet/James, Penny/Desmond). Desmond wasn't actually in S1, but, the "Rules don't apply to him", and also, in S1 we do see the light coming up out of the Hatch (which we find out in S2 was Desmond) and Desmond was in fact the one who "shone the light" on most people in the Sideways/limbo universe and woke them up.
Recoil
Regular
That, by the way, just goes to reinforce the theory I've been posting for some time now, that originally they meant for the island to be some sort of Purgatory. That part of the "JJ" ending fits that precisely. But after the first couple of episodes when everyone started saying "oh, they are in purgatory" they realized if everyone knew the big secret then no one would watch (and they likely would have been correct) they denied it and started making up other stuff as they went along.
And...since the ending did have a purgatory piece in it, it shows they couldnt have strayed too far from things.
Sindatur
Regular
If they planned the Limbo/Purgatory ending all along, in this manner, than IMHO, that was fair authorial misdirection, because it didn't enter the story until S6, everything that happened on the island really happened, and anything that happened S5 and before (when they denied Purgatory) wasn't about Purgatory. The series was about the journey these people took together, not where that journey ended
Of course, if they originally intended the island to be Purgatory, and swapped it to this sideways Universe Purgatory ending, yea, that's a cheat.
B5 told you where it was going from the beginning. It showed you GKar and Londo choking the life out of each other in the first season and then shows the actual circumstances in season 3 and how they got to that point in season 5. If people guessed the purgatory thing then they should have assumed they would have and made the journey the important part. The more I think about it the more amazed I am of B5 and Farscape. 2 shows with no big names attached not guaranteed to be renewed every year and on 3rd rate networks having 4-5 year storyline arcs that just worked.
vorlonlovechild
Regular
True, and with Farscape & B5 being re-shown at the moment on FX we can re-live that wonderful storytelling again and again and again.
GKarsEye
Regular
Guys, comparing everything to B5 is not healthy. B5 is special because it's unique. Lost is how TV is generally done- you don't know how long, or even if, a show is going to last, so you make it up as you go along.
Why else do you think the whole serial story-arc approach to TV is both so relatively new and so often ends weird. This was always the whole point of TV vs movies: in a movie you get to write the whole script from beginning to end, but on TV you just have to come up with new self-contained situations for your characters. Then at some point everyone decided we need a TV show to work like a 100-hr long movie, which is pretty ridiculous.
Why else do you think the whole serial story-arc approach to TV is both so relatively new and so often ends weird. This was always the whole point of TV vs movies: in a movie you get to write the whole script from beginning to end, but on TV you just have to come up with new self-contained situations for your characters. Then at some point everyone decided we need a TV show to work like a 100-hr long movie, which is pretty ridiculous.
Alluveal
Regular
Yeah, you might as well give up on all television. Now. Period. Because it gets kind of old to constantly hear how nothing else is as good as B5. We all know that or we wouldn't be here.
But, some of us actually enjoy other shows, even if they are not exactly up to par on all levels.There are plenty of shows that succeeded at the long story arc on tv and plenty that were cut short but they were still awesome just not given enough time to finish. Here's a list of the top of my head: The West Wing, Doctor Who, Farscape, Firefly, Adventures of Brisco County Jr, Fullmetal Alchemist, The Venture Brothers, BSG (I didn't like the ending that much), Avatar
I'm sure there are plenty more, but as long as you know you want to do a long arc (3-5 years) all you have to do is plan it out and write each season as best you can. I don't see why you might not get guaranteed your seasons means you should change your story telling. Taking the arc out of Firefly would have probably made it worse and definitely wouldn't have saved it.
GKarsEye
Regular
The only two shows you list that I've seen are Farscape and Firefly.
Farscape did not plan out its whole story in the beginning. It did season-long arcs, a practice popularized, IIRC, by Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Firefly only lasted 13 episodes, so can't even judge or compare.
From what I know about Dr Who and The West Wing, those were not planned series-long arcs either.
Once Lost became popular, they were guaranteed entire seasons could finish, except for during the writers' strike, and were able to write accordingly.
AFAIK, Babylon 5 is the only series on television ever that actually had a fully realized arc for its major plot points and characters from the beginning.
Farscape did not plan out its whole story in the beginning. It did season-long arcs, a practice popularized, IIRC, by Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Firefly only lasted 13 episodes, so can't even judge or compare.
From what I know about Dr Who and The West Wing, those were not planned series-long arcs either.
Once Lost became popular, they were guaranteed entire seasons could finish, except for during the writers' strike, and were able to write accordingly.
AFAIK, Babylon 5 is the only series on television ever that actually had a fully realized arc for its major plot points and characters from the beginning.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
GKarsEye
Regular
Wasn't that real short though?
Also I don't know if you can compare cartoons to live action. You don't have actors potentially leaving/quitting/dying and so forth.
Does it matter if it was planned or not? They had multi season arcs that worked very well together. So if Lost was or wasn't planned out there are other shows that have been able to do long story lines and not suck at it. Farscape even though it was cut short and had to be finished with a tv movie completed the story and I was very much satisfied. The West Wing buttoned up everything as well and made way for a new President. Both had a few story lines left untold but they finished all the main ones and you weren't left sitting there wondering what the heck just happened.
A good story is like a good rollercoaster, it starts low and builds higher and higher and around the middle of the story it crests and then you enjoy the ride back down (some added twists are always welcome). Lost just kept building and building and building up until the last episode. That's no way to write a story. That's the problem I guess with shows that use mystery to suck in viewers. You never want to explain the mystery until the very end but that makes for a story with bad tempo.
GKarsEye
Regular
Well I thought that's what some of us were talking about, but ok...
Point about that is that it's common for B5 fans to cry "why don't shows just plan out everything in advance" and I was addressing that- basically, that TV can't work like that for the most part.
Either way, Lost certainly did end it's major plots, and it didn't save the mysteries 'till the end, it actually answered lots of stuff along the way, just that it also brought up new mysteries at the same time. I mean when you step back and think about it, what were the major mysteries given to us in the first couple of seasons, going into the final season?
Why were they brought to the island?
How is that the crash victims are connected?
What the hell is the smoke thing?
What was the deal with the hatch?
Why did the plane crash?
these are the Big questions. And they were actually all answered before the final season even began.
Now if you don't like the resolutions, the answers, the way the plots ended, hey that's fine, but you can't really say they weren't there.
