B5 Episodes You Prefer To Skip?

[Truth_Seeker]

TKO is generally slammed... I remember Recoil once had a pretty cool post defending it. And I actually am quite a boxing fan, but the reason I didn't really like the episode was the execution of it. Just kind awkward and clumsy.

Yes the problem of "TKO" is that it actually tells us nothing significant.It has no A,B,C........ stories like the other episodes.It simply has a boring Y story and a more boring Z story.

 

[aajay]

Kinda like TKO. The "boxing" story is weak, but OK. I do like the Ivanova storyline though.
I didn't care that much for Intesctions at 1st, but on further re-watches it is rather good.
Now that Grail is mentioned, I can add that to my list also.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Actually I like "Grail".It's one of those dark episodes happening mostly in Downbelow and in my opinion it had the best monster in B5.Compared to the Zarg from "Grey 17 Is Missing" the Na'Ka'Leen was a real masterpiece.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

And the idea of having Deuce disguise the feeder as a Vorlon was truly inspired.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Honestly "Grail" was pretty scary to me when I saw it for the first time(I was 11 years old)

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Yes the problem of "TKO" is that it actually tells us nothing significant.It has no A,B,C........ stories like the other episodes.It simply has a boring Y story and a more boring Z story.

I like TKO. It is about racism. We have a black man, whose ancestors were the victims of racism referring to aliens as "snake heads," obviously a racist term. The aliens of the Mutai are also racists, considering humans to be lesser beings than they are. I love the inherent ironies. It doesn't contribute to the arc, and is kind of a 'feel good' story line, given its resolution. So, while not a favorite, I think it is quite a respectable ep.

 

[maneth]

Me too, although it seems that humanity has finally moved beyond skin color or culture-induced racism by the time we get to B5. Of course, dark-skinned people call whites nasty names just as much as the other way, although they're less often in positions of power to discriminate.

 

[Telepath]

TKO does contribute to the arc, if only in one small detail: "When will you ever learn to watch your back, Michael?". This is repeated at the end of the ep and foreshadows Garibaldi's being shot in Chrysalis.

So does Grail... the True Seeker bears a striking resemblance to the rangers, with robe and pike. Every ep contains at least one such small detail that can be recognized when going through the series a second time.

 

[Chilli]

There is only one plotline - not a whole episode - I generally fast-forward past when going through B5. Franklin's romance in Walkabout.

As for Intersections ... it's a great episode, has one of the best performances by BB on the show, and certainly seems plausible to me. There's only one thing that kind of - kind of - bothers me, and I'm not even sure about this. I'm not sure it quite brought the point home that everyone can be broken by torture - that even Sheridan would have a limit where he couldn't take any more. But of course, he's a badass guy and that limit is a pretty high one, so it makes sense that they don't really break him.

 

[KoshFan]

There have certainly been occasions of people who resist torture. During World War II the Frenchman basically responsible for building the Resistance was captured by the Nazis. If he'd revealed anything under torture the Germans could have rolled up the entire organization. He never said a word, and eventually the continuous torture killed him.

And you have the case of Giles Corey (dramatized in Miller's "The Crucible"), who refused to testify one way or another in the witch trials and was crushed to death under heavy weights for keeping silent. He could have saved himself at any point by saying anything, but didn't.

 

[mattikake]

Ah, it's time for my annual "defend Intersection in Real Time" post. Ok, here goes- it freakin' rules! One of the finest B5 moments, easily.

And yes, it certainly is realistic. The idea of using physical breakdown and confusion to wipe a victim's mind clean in order to re-configure their ideas has been done, and was actually based on some early psychological experimentation, linked with shock therapy.

Other things I love about the episode- I'm just a sucker for the theatrical 2-man play setup. Of course it requires actors of high caliber and the interrogator was perfect and Sheridan is just criminally underrated as an actor on this show- even by fans. While the understandable consensus is that G'Kar and Londo had the best actors, I consider Sheridan to be in that company.

Frankly I don't understand the hate on this ep at all. I don't think I could've been as big a fan as I am of B5 without this and another fan-hated episode- the one where the slimy enemy journalists create a BS news report on purpose.

Star Trek set the standard for connecting sci-fi TV with real-life issues, but B5 took it to the next level by adding these kinds of specific elements. It's precisely these eps that set the show apart.


Anyway, to answer the original question- I f'n hate Grail.

I'd just like to 2nd everything said above (except the Star Trek mumbo jumbo )!

BB is superb in it and apparently the whole episode was pretty much shot in one take according to JMS, which only bolsters the actors pedigree.

I like the idea that Clark's forces know they can't break Sheridans spirit and couldn't do a mind wipe, so they took to breaking his mind and the illusion of truth instead. Great stuff and well written.

As for stuff I don't watch, it's a lot. About half of Series 1 and all of Series 5. I try to pretend series 5 never existed.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Opinions are so funny. TKO is the episode that latched me to the series. The boxing story was at least OK and the racism issue was very well done. The Shiva for Ivanova was, IMO, absolutely brilliant. The cutting back and forth between the Mutai and the Shiva ceremony was riveting as both Smith and Susan put their hearts and souls on the line in radically different but equally wrenching situations.

I really like Intersections, even though it is painful to watch at times.

I LOVE GROPOS!

There isn't an episode I won't watch when it comes up.

 

[Jan]

There isn't an episode I won't watch when it comes up.

My feelings exactly. Sure, some aren't huge favorites but even before it was a 'job' for me, I wouldn't skip an episode when watching the series again. There's always something to watch, whether it's the main action or the background actors or the costuming; something interesting is probably going on.

As for Seasons one and five, if I had a dollar for every time I've read "You know, I watched it again recently and it was much better than I'd remembered.", I could go on a really nice cruise someplace. I find that when people watch it again without the filter of whatever they were expecting before, they can appreciate the episodes/seasons for what they were instead of what they wanted them to be.

Jan

 

[Recoil]

I don';t skip that episode, but I really don't like it. It's really not realistic in any way and I'm sure that all the political prisoners put there that have been tortured wish they only had to endure what Sherdian went through.

Umm...actually "Intersections in Real Time" has a LOT of VERY realistic interrogation methods, and means of breaking people.

It may be a "boring" episode, but it is one of my favorites, and the best "stand alone" episode in the series I think. They did an excellent job of portraying any and all methods used to get a prisoner to do what you want. I thought it was fantastic and very intelligently written.

Edit: Oops...should have read on before posting...this was already covered.

 

[Recoil]

Yes the problem of "TKO" is that it actually tells us nothing significant.It has no A,B,C........ stories like the other episodes.It simply has a boring Y story and a more boring Z story.

TKO is generally slammed... I remember Recoil once had a pretty cool post defending it. And I actually am quite a boxing fan, but the reason I didn't really like the episode was the execution of it. Just kind awkward and clumsy.

Heh, just like you feel the urge to defend "Intersections" (and I do as well) I also always feel I need to defend TKO. Your post reminded me of that post of mine, so I went and looked it up. Here it is below.

Mind you, this defends the CONTENT of the episode, why it is really worth watching, and why its an integral part of the B5 story (although it seems like a standalone ep). Your other comments are accurate though, in that it wasn't executed as well as it could have been, and there were some clumsy/awkward moments. But its an episode I don't skip over, and like to watch.

Previously posted by Recoil

I do enjoy TKO for the Ivanova plot and characterization...but I really like the Mutai plot as well, and its not because of the foreshadowing for Garibaldi (the "you never could watch your back" comment from Smith, when as we all know Garibaldi gets shot in the back in this Season's finale), although that is cool. There is something about that Walker Smith plot that REALLY speaks to not just a human attitude and approach to things...but an AMERICAN one as well.

Here is a guy who goes around calling aliens Snakeheads. Talks about busting them up, using their pathetic competition to help him get into the "big time" and get a "real" fight back home, a shot at the title. ALL of that speaks to human and in some ways, American arrogance. Before he even meets them he is looking down at the Mutai. Their fight is a joke to him and a stepping stone for what he wants, nothing more. He has ZERO appreciation for what other cultures hold dear and respect.

The aliens react to this. The guy who tries to kill him later flat out says how humans have no place because we look down upon them, and tells us to go back where we came from. Humans are the little punks on the street in B5. We were given space travel from someone else, beat down the Dilgar, and now we think we own the place. Nothing speaks better to that point than this episode.

All that being said...by the end of the episode Walker Smith TRULY finds respect not just for his opponent, but for the Mutai as well, and they in turn respect him and open things up to humans (figuratively and literally). This sort of shows how B5 will end up, with humans EARNING the respect of the others while learning to respect the other races themselves.

I think it was a great episode which really spoke to human (and American) nature in many ways. It drew so many parallels not only to real life, but to other things going on prior and in the future of the B5 universe.

I think this might be the most underrated episode of the series.

 

[Chilli]

There's only one thing about TKO that really bugs me: The whole "humans are not allowed into the Mutai" bit.

So much science fiction falls into the trap of always having the universe split up into humans and aliens (See Vulcan referring to himself as alien on Star Trek) while failing to see that in a universe with countless different species, humans would be just as alien to everyone else, because "alien" is a relative term. Yet, somehow, while the Mutai is obviously not restricted to one species, humans being allowed in is unimaginable.

Yes, I've heard people say that there might be a "federation" of worlds which hold the Mutai, and that the Centauri might be just as unwelcome in the Mutai. But if you have that kind of club .. some aliens had to join in on the custom before at some point in the past, as the Mutai must have originated on one planet. So why are humans so special?

It's the only time B5 really stepped into this Sci-Fi pet peeve of mine.

 

[Recoil]

But again...read my post and you will realize WHY we fall into that in B5. We are the new kids on the block, showing zero respect for the other races who have been in space for hundreds of years. At the start of the series, we are the young punks showing no respect for our elders, and by the end, we have begun to find our place and the way of things (for the most part) and learned to get along with the other races.

B5 is the story of the third age of MANKIND remember, so its OUR story and about us earning OUR place in the galaxy.

The episode TKO shows that on a much smaller scale, and very early on in the series, which is one of the things I find neat about it.

Besides, at least B5 shows us reasons for things to be that way, with Star Trek, it just IS.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

But again...read my post and you will realize WHY we fall into that in B5. We are the new kids on the block, showing zero disrespect for the other races who have been in space for hundreds of years.

Exactly. Except I think you meant 'showing zero respect, not "disrespect."

 

[Chilli]

But again...read my post and you will realize WHY we fall into that in B5. We are the new kids on the block, showing zero disrespect for the other races who have been in space for hundreds of years. At the start of the series, we are the young punks showing no respect for our elders, and by the end, we have begun to find our place and the way of things (for the most part) and learned to get along with the other races.

B5 is the story of the third age of MANKIND remember, so its OUR story and about us earning OUR place in the galaxy.

The episode TKO shows that on a much smaller scale, and very early on in the series, which is one of the things I find neat about it.

Besides, at least B5 shows us reasons for things to be that way, with Star Trek, it just IS.

There is some truth here. I was going to say that it still felt odd that earth would be picked out like this ...

... and then I remembered all the angry people bitching about Montenegro wanting to take part at the Eurovision song contest after becoming an independent nation.

 

[Recoil]

Exactly. Except I think you meant 'showing zero respect, not "disrespect."

Ooops. Yep, thats what I meant. Corrected it.