B5 Episodes You Prefer To Skip?

[Jade Jaguar]

And this is different from getting all bent out of shape over a piece of literature, a TV show, a movie, etc., how?

Well, I realize this is pointless, since I can't get you to recognize the difference between brutal oppressors, and their victims, but here goes...

Well, first, I never get "bent out of shape" over a piece of literature, etc., nor have I seen others do so. I love a good logical argument about such things, and can be passionate about my viewpoint, but I never become physically demonstrative, angry, or violent, such as is common for sports fanatics. I DO mean fanatics, not normal, mannered fans. That is one difference.

Another difference is that with sports, the important part, the fulfilling part, comes in the exercise of it, not the observation of it. With literature, and other forms of art, while the exercise of creating it can certainly be fulfilling, it is the observation of it, the appreciation of it, that is the important thing. The exercise, intellectual exercise, in this case, comes in the perception of it, and in discussion of it.

 

[Cell]

Well, I realize this is pointless, since I can't get you to recognize the difference between brutal oppressors, and their victims, but here goes...

Well, since you can't realize when the oppressed are no longer the oppressed and are now the oppressors then, yeah.

Nah, I can't agree with that at all. Sports is an all-encompassing experience, both for the people competing and for those watching. That is why there are such things as feeding off the crowd or taking the cord out of the equation, etc..

 

[hypatia]

My has this thread strayed from the subject.

I've never seen on the evening news riots after a bad book-reading session, or movie preview, etc. I've never seen someone throw objects at a television during a particularly bad moment in a show or newscast.

What is different about sports fans, in my opinion, is the violence they can cause over a stupid lost game, or bad play, or whatever. I mean, they need riot police in place after some matches. And the sad, SAD truth is: it's really only a tiny fraction of the fans who cause such trouble, I'm sure.

At least with the Drazi, they were all in agreement and they were all voluntarily harassing each other. In fact, it makes you wonder: weren't there some Drazi at least who refused to participate in the whole thing? Just hid under the bed or something, until it was over?

 

[Jade Jaguar]

My has this thread strayed from the subject.

Ahh, it's just Cell's and my way of hollering Purple! Green! at each other.

 

[hypatia]

Ah, but will it settle an election?

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Nah, I can't agree with that at all. Sports is an all-encompassing experience, both for the people competing and for those watching.

I do realize that I am in a tiny minority, feeling about sports as I do.

But, I think I clearly stated the differences in the reactions to sports, and to literature, the arts, etc.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Ah, but will it settle an election?

I'm not Hillary... He's Hillary...

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I oftenly skip "GROPOS" because I don't find anything interesting in it after the second watching.There is a classic father-son friction that we see in almost every TV show and a short time romantic story which we also see in almost every TV show.It's nice to watch it once maybe twice but no more.

 

[GKarsEye]

I oftenly skip "GROPOS" because I don't find anything interesting in it after the second watching.There is a classic father-son friction that we see in almost every TV show and a short time romantic story which we also see in almost every TV show.It's nice to watch it once maybe twice but no more.

yeah

I've bitched about this before, but I also hate how Garibaldi is a such a goddamn pussy with Dodger.
Twice!
Lost a lot of respect for the guy. Fortunately, he's fictitious.

 

[hypatia]

So a man who doesn't sleep with anything that throws herself at him is a pussy?

What high standards you have for your fellow man.

And here we go again: isn't it interesting that to insult a man people call him... a part of a woman?

 

[Recoil]

And here we go again: isn't it interesting that to insult a man people call him... a part of a woman?

So what? To insult a woman, people call her....a part of a woman too. Or an animal.

About GROPOS, the father/son thing is done on a lot of shows, but I thought it was done nicely here, so I liked it. Garibaldi also really, REALLY annoyed me, to the point of thinking that it was almost unrealistic, his reaction to Dodger. The bit about his ex-girlfriend from years ago getting married, and the (then) Talia pipe dream...COME ON! It was so out of character for the guy. To be honest, he had nothing going for him in the show, relationship wise, up to that point, so I really DO believe he would have jumped on the first woman who threw herself at him.

However, I did like the relationship between Keffer and his "roommates." It was a nice bonding, and also interesting because by the end of the season...all of them would be gone.

What I did like about the episode though, is how all of the GROPOS, the rookie, the veterans, the asshole who assaulted Delenn, and the nice ones, all ended up dead at the end. I think it was a nice somber ending, and very well pulled off.

 

[hypatia]

So what? To insult a woman, people call her....a part of a woman too. Or an animal.

But not a part of a man? Interesting, isn't it? I mean, you have to see how the language implies woman (or animal) is "lower" than man. But try as I might, I can't ever recall hearing a woman called a "dick".

As far as Gropos goes: the episode was a bit over the top. Maybe more than a bit.

I still don't get why it's so horrible if a man might want to know a woman for longer than a few hours or days before jumping her bones. I really just don't get the judgementalism there. Personally, I think you missed JMS's point.

I would agree that Keffer and his "roomies" was the best part of the episode, and I enjoyed that quite a bit. Especially when he "told off" the really, really big guy by saying he'd get a ladder and tell it to his face, or something to that effect.

The ending was basically too predictable for the episode, though. So this one isn't high on my list of favorite episodes either. But I wouldn't skip it either. I like the acting of the man who played Franklin's father. He was another good part of an otherwise widely weak episode.

 

[Recoil]

But not a part of a man? Interesting, isn't it?

Yea you pretty much said it. Never heard a woman called a "Dick." That one belongs to us guys.

 

[hypatia]

So the ultimate insult to a man is to be referred to as a woman, or part of one. Yet the ulitmate insult to a woman is not being referred to as a man, or part of one.

See how sexism is taught to us from the first moments in life?

And another quick note: the old "but women say the same thing, too" argument doesn't prove anything other than the fact that both sexes are indoctrinated at a very early age. So early, as a matter of fact, our language evolves around it, and we accept it far too often without questionor note.

But that hardly makes it right. It just makes people very uncomfortable when an individual notices and points it out. That's why I can't help but suspect there must have been some Drazi who did not partake in the Purple/Green ritual. In any culture you're going to find someone who has the guts to say "I don't accept this as necessary fact... I think it's time we get rid of such b.s.".

 

[Jan]

So the ultimate insult to a man is to be referred to as a woman, or part of one. Yet the ulitmate insult to a woman is not being referred to as a man, or part of one.

See how sexism is taught to us from the first moments in life?

Following this train of thought and continuing to pull the thread way off topic...

I've been thinking along much these same lines lately and I think that, rather than 'just' sexism, it's an unconscious (gods, I *hope* it's unconscious) manifestation of the old fashioned notion that sex is bad and dirty in some way with perhaps a bit of Madonna/whore syndrome mixed in.

Look at a couple of others that are so incredibly common:
-that something 's**ks' is a bad thing but how many men (and women, for that matter) *don't* find having that act performed on them to be a major turn-on? Not many. You'd think that having something s**k would be a positive expression, wouldn't you?

-'getting f***ed' is another bad thing and yet much sought after in reality. This one, at least, might have to do with homophobia but it's still used with exactly the opposite meaning you'd expect for so pleasurable and sought-after activity.

Who needs aliens for strangeness?!

Jan

 

[hypatia]

Following this train of thought and continuing to pull the thread way off topic...

I've been thinking along much these same lines lately and I think that, rather than 'just' sexism, it's an unconscious (gods, I *hope* it's unconscious) manifestation of the old fashioned notion that sex is bad and dirty in some way with perhaps a bit of Madonna/whore syndrome mixed in.

Look at a couple of others that are so incredibly common:
-that something 's**ks' is a bad thing but how many men (and women, for that matter) *don't* find having that act performed on them to be a major turn-on? Not many. You'd think that having something s**k would be a positive expression, wouldn't you?

-'getting f***ed' is another bad thing and yet much sought after in reality. This one, at least, might have to do with homophobia but it's still used with exactly the opposite meaning you'd expect for so pleasurable and sought-after activity.

Who needs aliens for strangeness?!

Jan

Ah, that's quite good. Would you mind if I used your last line as a signature quote, jan?

Interesting thoughts. I hadn't looked at it quite that way, but perhaps that is a manifestation of the old puritan thinking. I still can't help but notice that the feminine seems to fare worse than the masculine when it comes to the thinking and the language. But then in puritan thinking, it was the woman who was seen as the temptress, and the man the hapless "victim", wasn't it? Very interestint thought, there.

As far as a tie-in to the thread subject.... hmmm...

Maybe the Drazi have sexual uses for the colors purple and green.

 

[GKarsEye]

Dodger wasn't just "anything that throws herself at him." She's a cute, fiesty, bright, sexy girl. Why do you have to talk about her in such sexist terms, hyp?



She explained perfectly well why it makes sense for her to wanna have a good time w/ Garibaldi before she goes off to war. Ok, if she lived on the station I could (believe it or not) understand waiting a bit. And it's not like Garibaldi was morally opposed to it (which also would've been understandable, at least plot-wise). No, he starts babbling about his awful ex-wife and- of all, people, Talia!- so yeah, he's being an ass. And this is after taking the girl to his room, by the way!

The whole point of this story is that Garibaldi behaved like a moron, and her death makes it a shame that he can't fix it. Fortunately, JMS has a more sophisticated approach to sexuality than some of the posters here- the seemingly "loose" woman in the story is also the most open-minded, principled soldier in the episode. She's a cool chick- it's not like I'm smashing Sheridan for not jumping on the Nightwatch twat, that I get.

 

[hypatia]

Who is to say who Garibaldi found attractive? And again, some people just don't feel as comfortable having sex with a virtual stranger, no matter how engaging she might be acting.

Besides, have you never met a man who gets a bit turned off by a woman who is "too aggressive"? I can tell you: they are out there.

The main point I'm trying to make is: why judge a character so harshly simply because he has different tastes and/or standards than you do? I can certainly understand why Dodge was the "no time for deep relationships" kind of gal. Can't you understand why Garibaldi might have been that kind of guy, though?

But that's hardly the worst part of the episode, in my opinion. One of the hardest parts of the episode for me to believe is how helpless Delen acts when some soldiers start getting rough with her. Isn't she the same Delen who broke a man's finger for getting too inquisitive? Isn't she trained in self-defense? And aren't Minbari (male and female alike) physically stronger than humans? I'd have to think she'd put up a bit of a fear-inspiring fight rather than to just look meek and helpless in a situation like that.

Oh, another pet peeve of mine about the episode: I'm breaking one of my own main rules in sci-fi enjoyment: I'm bitching about special effects. Normally, I don't care one bit about that. But the newscast of Franklin's father from the planet surface... is that the fakest background you've ever seen? It was just so poorly done, it really stood out. They might as well have had a Donald Duck cartoon running in the background. For some reason, that special effects sequence just dominated my attention with how fake it looked. And it takes really BAD special effects for me to even notice them.

 

[Jan]

Ah, that's quite good. Would you mind if I used your last line as a signature quote, jan?

Feel free!

Interesting thoughts. I hadn't looked at it quite that way, but perhaps that is a manifestation of the old puritan thinking. I still can't help but notice that the feminine seems to fare worse than the masculine when it comes to the thinking and the language. But then in puritan thinking, it was the woman who was seen as the temptress, and the man the hapless "victim", wasn't it? Very interestint thought, there.

Yes, I think you're right about the Puritan thinking. For those of the non-US-ian persuasion, is using sexual terms for cursing/cussing as prevalent elsewhere? For instance, I have the impression that the UK folks generally use excretory terms more than sexual ones, don't they?

Jan

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Besides, have you never met a man who gets a bit turned off by a woman who is "too aggressive"? I can tell you: they are out there.

"Too aggressive" woman is a warning sign. At the best she is a prostitute. She could be something worse. What every she is she certainly does not love you.