Ubik
Regular
Ignoring the novels, was this ever a going concern / confirmed project? Or has it simply been teased by JMS over the years?
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- Thread starter Ubik
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Ignoring the novels, was this ever a going concern / confirmed project? Or has it simply been teased by JMS over the years?
ranger phil
Member
The TNT movies wern't bad. They wern't great but they wern't 'bad'
Legend of the Rangers? Was kinda poor but it did have some good points.
The Memory of Shadows? I remember being gutted about this when I was circular reason over on JMSnews back in the day. There didnt seem to be any middle ground. I seem to remember I was in the 'Same Actors' camp as well. Shame.
The Telepath Wars? Don't seem to remember that as a movie project. Maybe I was asleep?
The Failed Reboot? Might have worked, but we'll never know.
The Lost Tales. Massive missed opportunity by WB. If they had given Joe some decent funding it would have been amazing stuff. It still sold well. I enjoyed Lochleys far more than Sheridans... Who would figure?
Legend of the Rangers? Was kinda poor but it did have some good points.
The Memory of Shadows? I remember being gutted about this when I was circular reason over on JMSnews back in the day. There didnt seem to be any middle ground. I seem to remember I was in the 'Same Actors' camp as well. Shame.
The Telepath Wars? Don't seem to remember that as a movie project. Maybe I was asleep?
The Failed Reboot? Might have worked, but we'll never know.
The Lost Tales. Massive missed opportunity by WB. If they had given Joe some decent funding it would have been amazing stuff. It still sold well. I enjoyed Lochleys far more than Sheridans... Who would figure?
Ubik
Regular
This was to be a complete reboot of the Babylon 5 series. Very little is known about the project other than the fact that Straczynski was given a full 22 episode first season commitment, a budget of 2-3 million dollars per episode and full creative control. The series was to be part of a ‘new distribution service’ which never materialised and as such the project was abandoned.
Republibot 3.0
Regular
JMS was clearly interested in doing this, and said that he wanted it in prodution after the Star Wars Prequels were done, so it wouldn't be in competition. He generally hinted it'd be a trilogy. I have no idea where it went, or how far it went. I doubt far. I imagine he had an outline of the events of The Telepath Crisis itself, to cull for references in Crusade and LOTR as the case may arise, and that was probably the core of the movie as well. Probably no further than that.
But whether he had 360 pages of script ready to go, or if he was just flat out lying about the whole thing doesn't matter: We still got burned.
Republibot 3.0
Regular
anyway. Bottom line: JMS has been dorking around with the idea of a continuation forever, and for the 7-ish projects we know, there's probably at least as many or more that he never spoke about openly.
Lately I've been thinking the idea way to go would have been with TV movies, one a year, self-contained stories, featuring as much of the cast as he could grab, and introducing a few new characters along the way. It's not as awesome as a series, but if I'm perfectly frank, Season 5 and Crusade were sub-par, so maybe he wasn't able to do a series anymore at that point.
In any event, we'd have had 17 or 18 of these things by now, and that's better than what we ended up with, right?
I've also been thinking that maybe it was a mistake to try to extend the series at all. The whole thing should have been self-contained, and resolve the Telepath Crisis within the 110 episodes as well.
Lately I've been thinking the idea way to go would have been with TV movies, one a year, self-contained stories, featuring as much of the cast as he could grab, and introducing a few new characters along the way. It's not as awesome as a series, but if I'm perfectly frank, Season 5 and Crusade were sub-par, so maybe he wasn't able to do a series anymore at that point.
In any event, we'd have had 17 or 18 of these things by now, and that's better than what we ended up with, right?
I've also been thinking that maybe it was a mistake to try to extend the series at all. The whole thing should have been self-contained, and resolve the Telepath Crisis within the 110 episodes as well.
Springer
Regular
Totally agree with this. Not that some of the TNT movies and parts of Crusade weren't good, but as I've said previously I bought into the idea of the five year arc. I wasn't keen on the telepath war being held back for some mythical big screen outing that never happened as it seemed to go against the grain of what JMS had always said about the five-year arc concluding the storyline.
I liked the TNT movies, and I liked season 5. There are episodes I didn't care for at all, like Learning Curve. Do I wish they were never made? Nope. I simply skip over them when I watch the DVDs. Hardly a big deal.
JMS did say that everything would be tied up and answered by the end of year 5, and it wasn't. I don't mind, because one of the greatest things about the series and the universe is that it took place in a galaxy with its own history. In Infection, a series of wars was mentioned that were probably related to the wars against the Shadows, and suggesting that history is about to repeat itself. The gradual discovery of the galaxy's history is an amazing lens through which to explore the B5 universe, it's a level of mystery underlying everything else happening in the series. I've never seen anything like it. The Telepath War was a wonderful attempt to suggest that the show goes on (not the tv show) after the curtain falls, the characters and conflicts continue. And that's the nature of this universe, that the history goes back a million years, and forward another million. We saw several important stories in that universe, and the door was left wide open for more. Otherwise JMS would have blown up the station at the end of 2262, and said 'no more.' I'm glad he didn't, because I would have hated to see the doors slam shut on B5. Crusade, I think, is the strongest of the spin-offs. Just like early B5, the dialogue is so thick with clues, hints, and mysteries. And although I was/am disappointed that Crusade was cancelled, and the Telepath War was never made, I for one do not feel burned. These are stories I really wanted to see, but was never owed. It's Hollywood, not all projects get made, just a fraction. C'est la vie. As in life as a whole, take what you can get.
I agree about Lost Tales, it was a terribly wasted opportunity. The stories they filmed were not so great, largely due to budget. That happens. The Garibaldi story they couldn't film I didn't find very good at all. But... After an initial investment, the DVD sales could have funded the whole thing beyond that, eliminating the politics involved in distribution, advertising (remember the Ninja motorcycle story? Ugh.), and ratings. If it pays for itself, it sells well, has an established fan base, and there are no networks or advertisers to keep happy, then things are radically different. Viola, total creative control. Oh well. That was the format in which B5 needed to be continued. And it still could. Hollywood has gone sequel/prequel/reboot crazy. New creations seem to be out of the question at the moment, it's simply not done. Which is sad, even pathetic, I could use many words for what I hope is a weird phase. But what if that leads someone at Warner Bros. to say 'What about Babylon 5? It already exists. And we already own it.'
I've never seen anything suggesting that the Telepath War was supposed to be a trilogy of films. Where was that? I do think the story could be told really well in six hours. 1.5 hours for In the Beginning felt a bit rushed to me, although I loved the film overall. I guess that's fine for Minbari, but once there are telepaths involved, things get complicated. We all know how those people are.
Raw Shark
"Sex Cauldron? I thought they shut that place down!"
Krusty the Klown
JMS did say that everything would be tied up and answered by the end of year 5, and it wasn't. I don't mind, because one of the greatest things about the series and the universe is that it took place in a galaxy with its own history. In Infection, a series of wars was mentioned that were probably related to the wars against the Shadows, and suggesting that history is about to repeat itself. The gradual discovery of the galaxy's history is an amazing lens through which to explore the B5 universe, it's a level of mystery underlying everything else happening in the series. I've never seen anything like it. The Telepath War was a wonderful attempt to suggest that the show goes on (not the tv show) after the curtain falls, the characters and conflicts continue. And that's the nature of this universe, that the history goes back a million years, and forward another million. We saw several important stories in that universe, and the door was left wide open for more. Otherwise JMS would have blown up the station at the end of 2262, and said 'no more.' I'm glad he didn't, because I would have hated to see the doors slam shut on B5. Crusade, I think, is the strongest of the spin-offs. Just like early B5, the dialogue is so thick with clues, hints, and mysteries. And although I was/am disappointed that Crusade was cancelled, and the Telepath War was never made, I for one do not feel burned. These are stories I really wanted to see, but was never owed. It's Hollywood, not all projects get made, just a fraction. C'est la vie. As in life as a whole, take what you can get.
I agree about Lost Tales, it was a terribly wasted opportunity. The stories they filmed were not so great, largely due to budget. That happens. The Garibaldi story they couldn't film I didn't find very good at all. But... After an initial investment, the DVD sales could have funded the whole thing beyond that, eliminating the politics involved in distribution, advertising (remember the Ninja motorcycle story? Ugh.), and ratings. If it pays for itself, it sells well, has an established fan base, and there are no networks or advertisers to keep happy, then things are radically different. Viola, total creative control. Oh well. That was the format in which B5 needed to be continued. And it still could. Hollywood has gone sequel/prequel/reboot crazy. New creations seem to be out of the question at the moment, it's simply not done. Which is sad, even pathetic, I could use many words for what I hope is a weird phase. But what if that leads someone at Warner Bros. to say 'What about Babylon 5? It already exists. And we already own it.'
I've never seen anything suggesting that the Telepath War was supposed to be a trilogy of films. Where was that? I do think the story could be told really well in six hours. 1.5 hours for In the Beginning felt a bit rushed to me, although I loved the film overall. I guess that's fine for Minbari, but once there are telepaths involved, things get complicated. We all know how those people are.
Raw Shark
"Sex Cauldron? I thought they shut that place down!"
Krusty the Klown
Don't think that ever happened.
Well you know this info isn't exactly secret. The beginnings of an outline were published in the movie script book. Not too much there. However, Lyta and Lennier were set to die.
There was also a more complete outline of a different feature film idea that had nothing to do with the telepath war.
Huh? The telepath war isn't the five-year storyline. The story is the story of the station.
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Republibot 3.0
Regular
I go back and forth on this. I want more, but at the same time I kind of want less. I like the idea of a solid beginning, middle, and ending, which is part of what attracted me to the show. Not every series needs to spawn an endless franchise. On the other hand, I keep eating pizza, and I don't even like it all that much, so...
JMS actually didn't say he'd wrap everything up. He said he'd wrap everything up except for one plot thread, which he'd follow up if there was enough interest. We now know that the 'wrapping it up' meant Sinclair, DeLenn, and Baby David on the run, hunted by the whole galaxy after B5 blew up and the Shadows won the war. Dangling thread is "What do the Sinclairs do?"
Kind of a downer. Midway through, he decided to merge his initial B5 concept with his "Babylon Prime" spinoff concept, and that's the show we got, which, honestly, I think is better than the show he planned. I count us lucky.
That said: he's showing clear signs of plot erosion by the last season. Stories meander, arcs are unfocused, or exist to set up stories we'll never see. He was making movies and in preproduction on another series. It got away from him. Instead of wrapping everything up, or leaving just one (new) thread dangling, we got like a dozen.
- what became of Lennier?
- The Telepath Crisis?
- Bester and Garibaldi?
- The Drakh?
- Others.
I get that some of these were "Life goes on" things, and I'm cool with that, but a lot were just sloppy, or hail-mary passes he threw assuming he'd be in a position to catch 'em later on. And he wasn't. And that irritates me.
Republibot 3.0
Regular
I could have articulated that better. Sorry. What I meant was "B5 was conceived of as a 110 episode show. They could easily have included the entire Telepath Crisis *WITHIN* that 110 episodes."
Jan
Regular
What makes you think he was assuming that he'd be in a position to "catch 'em later"? None of those things occurred *on the station & within the five-year history* and therefore weren't part of the 'documentary'. As it is, Bester and the Drakh were nicely covered in the books and Lennier would have been if the script for "The Path of Sorrows" had gone as planned.
One either accepts what the show purported to be and realize that history isn't neat and tidy or you complain about sloppiness that doesn't really exist.
Jan
Republibot 3.0
Regular
Ok, wellllll most obviously, the repeated attempts to revive the franchise strongly imply he didn't intend to just stop. From the first season, he said he had interest in doing an off-B5 spinoff. "Crusade" wasn't that (It was "Babylon Prime") but clearly he never intended to just stop. It was never *just* about the station, but that particular series was.
Secondly: setting up a conflict that we'll never see the payoff for is not JMS style. He's not aristotelian. (Nor are any good-hearted storytellers, really)
Thirdly, Crusade was clearly intended to catch at least some of these pitches, hence the Bester and other Teep episodes. Fourthly, JMS own comments about wanting to do a Telepath War movie.
Fourthly, and I can not stress this enough, the books don't count. I don't care what anyone says, I dont' care what JMS said, the books represent a deuterocanon at best. If JMS decided to do a new story about Garibaldi and Galen, do you think he'd hesitate one second and think, "Oh, wait, this conflicts with that crappy thing John Vornhort wrote twenty years ago, I can't do it. Oh well." No. The books in every franchise are subject to change without notice. JMS wanted tie ins, and he *wanted* them to count, but in actual practice that didn't work. The second batch did tie in (And I take them more seriously, though I've talked with a couple authors and they've said JMS didn't really give them much input), but they were basically a stopgap. Worth reading, but not scripture.
The only thing that counts is what you saw on screen.
Even JMS has said that most of the books can't be taken terribly seriously. Of the first batch, only one and a half count.
Who?
How much was written for the trilogies isn't a secret. Although the Psi Corps outline isn't there, we can read the full detailed Centauri trilogy and Psi Corps trilogy outlines that Joe wrote in the volume 2.5 script book.
Not sure why you are the arbiter of what counts and what doesn't, but I'll play:
Dead. "Sleeping in Light."
The Psi Corps had a fleet built up in hyperspace. "The Corps Is Mother, The Corps Is Father"
Lyta had a fund to fight back against the Psi Corps built Garibaldi built up by 2264. "Wheel of Fire"
Lyta removed Garibaldi's block. "Wheel of Fire."
Garibaldi survived. "Sleeping in Light"
Took over Centauri Prime ("Movements of Fire and Shadow" / "The Fall of Centauri Prime")
Londo freed Sheridan with the promise that Sheridan help them. ("War Without End")
So...what wasn't answered exactly?
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Jan
Regular
Kevin, as long as you insist on lumping all the books together, your stance that the novels don't count makes some sense. But why do so? The information on what's canon and what's not is freely available so such insistence just doesn't make sense and is kind of like cutting off your own nose to spite your face to discount them. They really enhance the B5 universe.
Jan
Jan
Springer
Regular
Well with that kind of thinking we shouldn't have seen the Narn-Centauri war, or the Minbari Civil War, or the Mars resistance, or any of that as they were not the story of the station either.
Of course the Telepath War isn't the five-year storyline. But it is a big part of it, simmering from the first season, and the telepaths were part of most of the major plots. We got the first round of the war between Bester and Edgars in season 4 – Bester won. When Sheridan defeated President Clark, the Psi Corps should have been exposed for what they were. Sheridan knew the Psi Corps were too dangerous to be left to their own devices, it was a situation where one side or the other had to act to take the advantage. Instead we got Byron which really didn't take things as forward as they should have given the amount of time devoted to him. The Telepath War really could have been part of the fifth season but JMS held off on it so he could save it for some other project after the series ended, and that's the point I disagree with as leaving it out not only damaged the fifth season in my eyes but went against the principle of "this is a five year story and no more".
ranger phil
Member
When did the telepath war become part of the 5 year arc?
Surely the 5 year arc set up the creation of the IA, via the part B5 played in it. All the parts such as the Narn/Centauri conflict, Minbari Civil War, Mars resistance, Shadow/Vorlon Conflict were part of setting this end point up. The Telepath war wasn't. Sure Sheridan fortold the conflict in rising stars, but it was not a part of the 5 year arc. It was seperate. Self contained. A Possible follow on - or as a part of something else. We even got to see it's endpoint in Crusade. Does that mean it should have been shoehorned into B5? I dunno. I didn't write it, but the guy that did - didn't see the point of putting it in. Maybe he has plans for it in the future? Who knows?
Babylon 5 is the story of the last of the Babylon stations.
Surely the 5 year arc set up the creation of the IA, via the part B5 played in it. All the parts such as the Narn/Centauri conflict, Minbari Civil War, Mars resistance, Shadow/Vorlon Conflict were part of setting this end point up. The Telepath war wasn't. Sure Sheridan fortold the conflict in rising stars, but it was not a part of the 5 year arc. It was seperate. Self contained. A Possible follow on - or as a part of something else. We even got to see it's endpoint in Crusade. Does that mean it should have been shoehorned into B5? I dunno. I didn't write it, but the guy that did - didn't see the point of putting it in. Maybe he has plans for it in the future? Who knows?
Babylon 5 is the story of the last of the Babylon stations.
Republibot 3.0
Regular
Condition on anonymity, sorry. Writers don't get paid much, and working writers don't want to endanger their income by saying things that may be interpreted badly about folks who gave them work. Added to which I've been trying to crack into the professional writer biz for years, and I'm sure blowing people's secrets (Psssst...guess who Bruce Boxleitner's ghostwriter is!) is not a way to endear myself.
Same thing that makes you decide I'm probably not the arbiter.
As a general rule of thumb in fictional universes, stuff you see onscreen counts. Stuff you didn't doesn't. Star Trek III: The Search for Spock counts. The Star Trek/Madballs crossover comic doesn't.
Yes, yes, yes, I know all that. I've read the books.
Lets put this another way: Let's say "The Empire Strikes Back" was a bomb, so "Return of the Jedi" never got made. Later on, Lucas has some of his friends write a couple books telling you, more or less, what would have happened. Would you be satisfied by that, or would you rather actually SEE the movie?
I'd rather see the movie. Even if I know what's going to happen, I'd rather see it. That's all.
