B5 Feature Film to be scriptedTRUE! There will be a feature film going into productio

[Republibot 3.0]

Kevin, as long as you insist on lumping all the books together, your stance that the novels don't count makes some sense. But why do so? The information on what's canon and what's not is freely available so such insistence just doesn't make sense and is kind of like cutting off your own nose to spite your face to discount them. They really enhance the B5 universe.

Jan

Well, JMS himself has said he's pretty displeased with a lot of 'em. I believe there was even a book published a couple years back that listed what counted and what didn't on a book-by-book basis, wasn't there?

Anyway: Right off the bat, we can divide 'em into three batches: The first batch, which sucked excepting for "City of Shadows" and roughly 50% of the Morden book.

The Novelizations, which JMS said contain much that he hasn't decided is canonical or not. (For instance, details Peter David made up)

The Second Batch: These are, on the whole, pretty good, and the first Psicorps book is full-on brilliant. 2nd one, not so much. 3rd one. Meh. Technomate Trilogy was entertaining, but didn't leave me fulfilled. The Centauri Prime trilogy was, I think, the weakest of the batch, but also probably the most 'realistic' in tone.

Then there's the short stories, whcih all count, though a couple of 'em don't make a whole lot of sense. For instance, why would Lyta just throw away a Psicorps warship? She could use it for her own forces, or she could simply go on ISN with it and expose the whole thing.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Huh? The telepath war isn't the five-year storyline. The story is the story of the station.

Well with that kind of thinking we shouldn't have seen the Narn-Centauri war, or the Minbari Civil War, or the Mars resistance, or any of that as they were not the story of the station either.

Of course the Telepath War isn't the five-year storyline. But it is a big part of it, simmering from the first season, and the telepaths were part of most of the major plots. We got the first round of the war between Bester and Edgars in season 4 – Bester won. When Sheridan defeated President Clark, the Psi Corps should have been exposed for what they were. Sheridan knew the Psi Corps were too dangerous to be left to their own devices, it was a situation where one side or the other had to act to take the advantage. Instead we got Byron which really didn't take things as forward as they should have given the amount of time devoted to him. The Telepath War really could have been part of the fifth season but JMS held off on it so he could save it for some other project after the series ended, and that's the point I disagree with as leaving it out not only damaged the fifth season in my eyes but went against the principle of "this is a five year story and no more".

Agree entirely and without reservation.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

When did the telepath war become part of the 5 year arc?

Surely the 5 year arc set up the creation of the IA, via the part B5 played in it. All the parts such as the Narn/Centauri conflict, Minbari Civil War, Mars resistance, Shadow/Vorlon Conflict were part of setting this end point up. The Telepath war wasn't. Sure Sheridan fortold the conflict in rising stars, but it was not a part of the 5 year arc. It was seperate. Self contained. A Possible follow on - or as a part of something else. We even got to see it's endpoint in Crusade. Does that mean it should have been shoehorned into B5? I dunno. I didn't write it, but the guy that did - didn't see the point of putting it in. Maybe he has plans for it in the future? Who knows?

Babylon 5 is the story of the last of the Babylon stations.

Actually, a better question is when did it *STOP* being part of it?

JMS said he'd wrap everything up in 5 years. Of course we now know what he was talking about isn't exactly what we thought: the station blows up, the good guys lose, the Sinclairs are on the run. The End. His lingering thread/spinoff would have been "Babylon Prime". At some point in season 2 he wisely decided to combine his two 10-year stories into one 5-year one.

The Telepath crisis was unquestionably always a part of both of these versions of the story, and there was more than enough room to fit in in. So at what point did he decide to evict it, and why?

My own thinking is that in 1998 things were looking pretty good. He had a contract to finish B5, a new show in preproduction, a spate of TV movies in the works, and probably some not-inconsiderable burnout from 4 years of TV production and sleepless nights. Plot erosion set in, and he had too many pots on the stove. I suspect he decided to remove the telepath conflict in between the seasons, and get back to it later on, in flashback in Crusade (As we saw) and probably in film format as well.

 

[JoeD80]

Yes, yes, yes, I know all that. I've read the books.

The point was *NONE* of that was from the books!

 

[JoeD80]

I suspect he decided to remove the telepath conflict in between the seasons, and get back to it later on

Even at the time Sleeping in Light was filmed, Joe told Bill Mumy that Lennier would die *after year five* in the telepath war. His early notes (seen in Artifacts from Beyond the Rim) have a short paragraph description of a Telepath War movie involving Ivanova.

There aren't any notes that point to these events being set during season five.

 

[Springer]

Even at the time Sleeping in Light was filmed, Joe told Bill Mumy that Lennier would die *after year five* in the telepath war.

May I ask if you have the reference for that? I do remember something similar, but at the time Sleeping in Light was being shot, there wasn't going to be a season five.

 

[JoeD80]

It's in the "Echoes of all our conversations" interview books. Bill Mumy August 5th 1997:

When I read that Lennier was toasted as one who had fallen [in Sleeping in Light], at first I tried to appeal that. I went to Joe and said, "Does he have to die?" and Joe said, "He dies in the great telepath war. He'll die like a hero, and it's way down the line; it's two movies down the line." I said, "Yeah, but he has to die?" and Joe said, "Yes, he's dying. He'll die like a hero and it will be great death, and it's after the fifth season" and blah blah blah.

That's Lennier's fate: he dies in the great telepath war somewhere down the line in the future.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

His early notes (seen in Artifacts from Beyond the Rim) have a short paragraph description of a Telepath War movie involving Ivanova.

Oooh! Any chance you could quote this?

 

[Republibot 3.0]

It's in the "Echoes of all our conversations" interview books. Bill Mumy August 5th 1997:

When I read that Lennier was toasted as one who had fallen [in Sleeping in Light], at first I tried to appeal that. I went to Joe and said, "Does he have to die?" and Joe said, "He dies in the great telepath war. He'll die like a hero, and it's way down the line; it's two movies down the line." I said, "Yeah, but he has to die?" and Joe said, "Yes, he's dying. He'll die like a hero and it will be great death, and it's after the fifth season" and blah blah blah.

That's Lennier's fate: he dies in the great telepath war somewhere down the line in the future.

Ok, so let's break this down objectively.

1) Lannier is dead as of SIL
2) Lannier died at some point after Objects At Rest.

That's fact. That's canon. That's onscreen and beyond debate.

3) JMS said in 1997 that Lannier would die late in the movie series.

This is less certainly canonical, because (A) the movie series never happened, and (B) isn't gonna.

So this tells us what JMS had in mind in 1997, but it DOESN'T tell us what he had in mind in 1995, or in 2000 for that matter. We have a reliable-but-second-hand account of what a writer told an actor about a character. No doubts that this was honest, but as we have REPEATEDLY seen, JMS' plans for B5 changed tracks rather massively several times over the course of the production of the series.

Lannier's fate in 1995 was almost unquestionably different since the fate of the whole station, nay, universe was different at that point. Likewise, after the crash-and-burn of Crusade, JMS could easily have revisited the character's direction. In fact, I'd be surprised if he didn't. He really only had one established canonical fact - Lanier's dead by SIL - and he could do anything he wanted apart from that.

Writers do this *ALL* the time.

 

[KoshN]

Mixed feelings about this. Obviously a B5 movie is an exciting thing to look forward to. I can see lots of plusses in getting a movie - greater interest in B5, more merchandise, more possibilities for getting the original show out on Blu-Ray etc etc. And it will be awesome to see the station on the big screen.

But – a couple of things work against the idea of doing a movie for me. Firstly when the show began I bought into the notion of doing five years then ending, not becoming a franchise.

That doesn't bother me.

While I'm not necessarily averse to doing more, it has to be as good and to fit in with the original series, but the stuff that has come since the initial five-year storyline has not always been as good as the main series itself, so I worry about the quality.

As do I.

It's like it is hard to recapture that magic the original show had.

Yes, after SO MANY YEARS.

Secondly, B5 was the five-year arc, that's what defined it - would it work as a standalone movie with only tenuous links to the original?

No. What would work is a.....you know, at this late date, I honestly don't know. Maybe, The Telepath War, but it'd have to use the original actors in their original roles wherever those characters were used. The thing is, reruns of "Babylon 5" and "Crusade" before the theatrical movie would help the movie.

Maybe the first novel of the Psi Corps trilogy could me made as a theatrical movie, because it doesn't require any knowledge of Babylon 5. Then the second and third of the trilogy could follow.

Third – I really dislike the idea of a reboot. It feels like a disservice to the original show, that somehow it was flawed and needed doing again. Give us a new space-based series JMS, don't regurgitate old ideas.

IF a reboot was going to be done, it should be "Crusade" that gets rebooted, but as a TV show, not a movie, and of course, it couldn't be called "Crusade" these days. Just follow the storyline from the original 12 episodes (not "War Zone"), recast where necessary (Don't recast Galen! Get Peter Woodward!), make minor modifications (e.g. No "uniform issue." Pick one.), shoot the previously filmed scripts and the unfilmed scripts and CONTINUE.

 

[KoshN]

BTW, the ONLY B5 movies that I really disliked were the Rangers pilot, and Babylon 5 - The Lost Tales - Voices in the Dark "Over Here". I liked "Over There".

I love "In the Beginning" and "A Call to Arms".
I like "The Gathering" and "Thirdspace" and "The River of Souls". The Rangers pilot makes "Thirdspace" and "The River of Souls" look great.

I also love ~80% of Crusade. Nobody has to twist my arm to get me to watch Crusade.
Regarding the B5 novels, everybody knows that Dell 1-6 & 8 sucked.
I enjoy Dell #7 more than #9 and Psi Corps #1. Found the latter two to be dry.
I like Psi Corps #2 & #3.
I love the Centauri and Technomage trilogies.
As for the novelizations, I disliked only "A Call to Arms". I liked the novelizations of In the Beginning and Thirdspace a lot.

 

[Springer]

BTW, the ONLY B5 movies that I really disliked were the Rangers pilot, and Babylon 5 - The Lost Tales - Voices in the Dark "Over Here". I liked "Over There".

I love "In the Beginning" and "A Call to Arms".
I like "The Gathering" and "Thirdspace" and "The River of Souls". The Rangers pilot makes "Thirdspace" and "The River of Souls" look great.

I also love ~80% of Crusade. Nobody has to twist my arm to get me to watch Crusade.
Regarding the B5 novels, everybody knows that Dell 1-6 & 8 sucked.
I enjoy Dell #7 more than #9 and Psi Corps #1. Found the latter two to be dry.
I like Psi Corps #2 & #3.
I love the Centauri and Technomage trilogies.
As for the novelizations, I disliked only "A Call to Arms". I liked the novelizations of In the Beginning and Thirdspace a lot.

That's pretty close to my tastes as well actually, other than preferring book #9 to #7 (opposite to you, I found 7 drier than 9) and having little time for River of Souls outside of the great guest actors and one or two scenes. I also disliked Psi Corps #1 and #3 and wasn't a fan of Technomages #1, it didn't feel like B5 at all, same with Psi Corps #1 (I've got the second and third Technomage books but haven't read them yet). Crusade gets better on re-watches for me.

Of course I'm a fan of B5 and I do like all of these to a point, even the poorer novels, but I think any new B5 movie has to be better than all of this ancillary material, otherwise what's the point?

 

[Springer]

It's in the "Echoes of all our conversations" interview books. Bill Mumy August 5th 1997:

When I read that Lennier was toasted as one who had fallen [in Sleeping in Light], at first I tried to appeal that. I went to Joe and said, "Does he have to die?" and Joe said, "He dies in the great telepath war. He'll die like a hero, and it's way down the line; it's two movies down the line." I said, "Yeah, but he has to die?" and Joe said, "Yes, he's dying. He'll die like a hero and it will be great death, and it's after the fifth season" and blah blah blah.

That's Lennier's fate: he dies in the great telepath war somewhere down the line in the future.

Fair enough, that does seem to indicate that by the time of season four, the telepath war was not meant to be in the series, if it ever was. I do feel that is a shame, but never mind.

 

[JoeD80]

His early notes (seen in Artifacts from Beyond the Rim) have a short paragraph description of a Telepath War movie involving Ivanova.

Oooh! Any chance you could quote this?

I will find this when I get home tonight.

 

[KoshN]

BTW, the ONLY B5 movies that I really disliked were the Rangers pilot, and Babylon 5 - The Lost Tales - Voices in the Dark "Over Here". I liked "Over There".

I love "In the Beginning" and "A Call to Arms".
I like "The Gathering" and "Thirdspace" and "The River of Souls". The Rangers pilot makes "Thirdspace" and "The River of Souls" look great.

I also love ~80% of Crusade. Nobody has to twist my arm to get me to watch Crusade.
Regarding the B5 novels, everybody knows that Dell 1-6 & 8 sucked.
I enjoy Dell #7 more than #9 and Psi Corps #1. Found the latter two to be dry.
I like Psi Corps #2 & #3.
I love the Centauri and Technomage trilogies.
As for the novelizations, I disliked only "A Call to Arms". I liked the novelizations of In the Beginning and Thirdspace a lot.

That's pretty close to my tastes as well actually, other than preferring book #9 to #7 (opposite to you, I found 7 drier than 9) and having little time for River of Souls outside of the great guest actors and one or two scenes. I also disliked Psi Corps #1 and #3 and wasn't a fan of Technomages #1, it didn't feel like B5 at all, same with Psi Corps #1 (I've got the second and third Technomage books but haven't read them yet). Crusade gets better on re-watches for me.

Of course I'm a fan of B5 and I do like all of these to a point, even the poorer novels, but I think any new B5 movie has to be better than all of this ancillary material, otherwise what's the point?

Y'know, come to think of it, Dell #7 "The Shadow Within" would make a good movie. They could really play up the horror angle. Might appeal to people. Maybe Henry Cavill (Superman) could play Jeff Sinclair.

Crusade gets better on re-watches for me, too. When I first saw it on TNT, in the TNT-mandated order with the black uniform episodes first, I wasn't too thrilled with it, and would've given it about a 6.5 out of 10. Now, overall, I'd give an 8.5 or 9 out of 10. I really got to like almost all of the characters. By comparison, I give Babylon 5 a 10 out of 10.

 

[JoeD80]

His early notes (seen in Artifacts from Beyond the Rim) have a short paragraph description of a Telepath War movie involving Ivanova.

Oooh! Any chance you could quote this?

I will find this when I get home tonight.

Here are some highlights from it (trying to keep it short since I probably shouldn't quote the page verbatim):

Psi Corps Thriller
...
Telepath War. Home Sapiens versus Homo Superior.
...
Or - teep vs. teep, using mundanes as tools.
...
Ivanova is "caught," known latent, pulled in, finds by resistance, knows she's sympathetic. She and Sheridan briefly on opposite sides.
...
Have to intercept/stop at end, big fight - how do teeps fight, can they affect pilots? Combine force of mind -> hive (10 Million Years to Earth)

According to the editor's note, 10 million years to earth is supposed to be a reference to the movie "5 Million Years to Earth" about a battle against a hive mind.

 

[ranger phil]

Y'know, come to think of it, Dell #7 "The Shadow Within" would make a good movie. They could really play up the horror angle. Might appeal to people. Maybe Henry Cavill (Superman) could play Jeff Sinclair.

i was thinking the same thing. Have Babylon 5, but have this mission going on - some potential for some really scary shit right there with the shadows.

or even the Vorlons.. Dont forget the Vorlons 'collect' beings and adapt them as well.

oh and Henry Cavill as sinclair? Genious. Wasn't sinclair meant to be in all the way through till Mr O Hare became ill?

Unless JMS wants to respect those that have left us and not recast characters per-se. There (for example) can never be another G'Kar...

Or he could just think 'sod it' and recast everyone. Cameos for BB + MF as Sheridan and Delenn (prez + missus) would be sweeeeeet. I dunno. you could get alll giddy and excited but in reality we know nothing. It's all in JMS's head at the moment.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Oooh! Any chance you could quote this?

I will find this when I get home tonight.

Here are some highlights from it (trying to keep it short since I probably shouldn't quote the page verbatim):

Psi Corps Thriller
...
Telepath War. Home Sapiens versus Homo Superior.
...
Or - teep vs. teep, using mundanes as tools.
...
Ivanova is "caught," known latent, pulled in, finds by resistance, knows she's sympathetic. She and Sheridan briefly on opposite sides.
...
Have to intercept/stop at end, big fight - how do teeps fight, can they affect pilots? Combine force of mind -> hive (10 Million Years to Earth)

According to the editor's note, 10 million years to earth is supposed to be a reference to the movie "5 Million Years to Earth" about a battle against a hive mind.

Thank you very much for typing that.

More than a little vague, though, isn't it? It does clearly indicate he was thinking about a movie, though.

 

[Lyta's Shadow]

The idea of sitting in a cinema to watch something related to Babylon 5 seems so fantastical. I cross all my fingers and toes but I think there's a greater chance of the Shadows returning from beyond the rim with baskets of candy and fluffy kittens for everyone. Please let me be wrong!

 

[Republibot 3.0]

The idea of sitting in a cinema to watch something related to Babylon 5 seems so fantastical. I cross all my fingers and toes but I think there's a greater chance of the Shadows returning from beyond the rim with baskets of candy and fluffy kittens for everyone. Please let me be wrong!

You know, I kind of hope you're not wrong.

Not to be negative. I desparately want more B5, and I doubt you'll find anyone outside a mental institution who's more obsessed with it than me. This particular project has been troubling me, though.

If someone wanted to reboot everything between "Objects at Rest" and "Sleeping in Light," hey, I'm right with ya' there. Mulligan! Want to tell the continuing adventures of the B5 characters? I'm there. B5: TNG? Cool. Rebooting B5 as a TV series? Well, I'm less enamored of that, but I can understand the appeal, and I wouldn't rule it out.

Rebooting it for a movie, though? This seems misguided. Compressing 110 hours of story into 6 hours of screen time told over the course of 6 years or so. I dunno, I read that and I feel something break inside me, and I think it might just be one revival attempt too far.