B5:TLT Actual DISCUSSION Thread

[Chris Springob]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

By the way, for those keeping score at home, the ISA was founded at the end of Season 4--December 2261. Ten years later would be December 2271. Crusade Season 1 took place in 2267, so if it would have gone five seasons, its final season would have taken place in 2271. These stories thus run concurrently with what would have been the end of the Crusade storyline, assuming Crusade stuck to "1 season = 1 year", and if it had run for five years.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

Don't try to understand it, Elenopa. The B5 rank systems have never really matched any existing military system.

For example: Corwin's a lieutenant, Garibaldi's chief of security and therefore roughly a warrant officer. Who'd be in charge if Sheridan and Ivanova left? Garibaldi, of course; he's command staff, Corwin isn't. But by any existing military rank system, Corwin would outrank Garibaldi by far.

So Lochley was apparently promoted in place, and she's held the same command for ten years. Again, not really matching any present military system; commanders rotate more often than that, so on the one hand it seems like Lochley has fallen into disfavor -- but the promotion, of course, says otherwise.

But on the whole, it doesn't really matter.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

In that case Lochely has not been promoted, just moved sideways.

JMS said somewhere that the process of consolidating what had once been distinct branches of the service into one unifed rank structure was on-going in EarthForce. In the first season we still hear about adimirals, Garibaldi metioned "generals and admirals" being in line to command B5, but thereafter every fleet commander we see, including those in the blue or "naval" part of EarthForce, are all generals. It may be that by 2272 the rank of naval captain has been eliminated and all captains converted to (full) colonels.

Or maybe JMS is just as muddled in his own mind about the whole thing as he's always been, and he just screwed in trying to promote her.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

By the way, for those keeping score at home, the ISA was founded at the end of Season 4--December 2261.

There is some question about what is considered the anniversary of the IA. The organization may have celebrated the date the charter was ratifiied by a sufficient number of races/states in December 2261, or they may instead celebrate the day that the government actually began, when Sheridan took the oath of office as president.

There is historical precedent for this. In the United States July 4th was not universally celebrated as the national anniversary. Escpecially after the Constitution was ratified and came into effect, there was considerable sentiment for dating the country's birth from that doucment instead of the Declaration. In part this had to do with sectional rivalries. The south tended to prefer the Constitution because it tacitly acknowledged the existance of slavery - without ever mentioning the word - while the Declaration had the annoying business about "all men are created equal" in it. The 4th tended to be celebrated in the North. Dates associated with the ratification of the Constitution or the Washington's Inauguration in the South. Lincoln very deliberately referred to 1176 in his Gettysburg Address - "Four score and seven years ago" - to show where he came down on the issue. A few months earlier the Confederate commander of the garrison at Vicksburg, Mississippi, who originally hailed from Pennsylvania, had chosen the day to surrender the city to U.S. Grant after an 87 day siege. "I am a northern man," he reminded his friends and nieghbors, "I know my people. I know we can get better terms from them on the 4th of July than on any other day of the year." it was only after the Civil War that the 4th started to become a really universal American holiday. (Except in Vicksburg, where it would be several decades before the date was publicly celebrated again. )

So conclusively dating events based on the anniversary is tricky at best. It is true that A Call to Arms is generally dated to December 2266 by fans, and that preparations are under way for the celebration of the IA's fifth anniversary, but it is also true that no celebration is seen in the film. Delenn is getting ready for it, Sheridan is out of the spotlight and reportedly fighting a flu bug. Major events like that usually take weeks or months to plan, so I'd lay odds that they date they were getting ready to celebrate in December 2266 was going to fall in January 2267. (Given the events on Earth, the celebration would have probably been slightly muted, but sitll held.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[Mindwalker]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

referred to ...1176...

wow the usa is older than my history book thinks

 

[KoshN]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

By the way, for those keeping score at home, the ISA was founded at the end of Season 4--December 2261.

There is some question about what is considered the anniversary of the IA. The organization may have celebrated the date the charter was ratifiied by a sufficient number of races/states in December 2261, or they may instead celebrate the day that the government actually began, when Sheridan took the oath of office as president.

I'm going with January 2272 for the Tenth Anniversary of the IA. Sheridan took his oath in January 2262, in Season 5 Episode 1 of B5.

http://babylon5scripts.com/B5-TLT-B5-Reunion.JPG
It's soooooooo nice to see some of the band back together. No, that's not in any way a negative remark. I'm just happy. Woohoo!!!

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

referred to ...1176...

wow the usa is older than my history book thinks

You lean things on this site that you'd never learn anywhere else. I'll bet nobody ever told you that William the Conquerer no sooner got England organized to his satisfaction than he turned west and took North America.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Elenopa]

Re: JMS\'s 1/12 post

In the first season we still hear about adimirals, Garibaldi metioned "generals and admirals" being in line to command B5, but thereafter every fleet commander we see, including those in the blue or "naval" part of EarthForce, are all generals.

This is probably true, but I do remember that Ivanova was originally going to be an Admiral in SiL, until it got changed to General.

I think this may have been at a late stage because if you look carefully at her envelope that she recieves, you can just see the top of the A poking out from the label that they stuck on to say General.

I've just got that shot off the DVD, so look at the attachment.

 

[The One Who Was]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

Terly Rothery: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0745186/
(She was Dr Fraiser in Stargate. And she's easy on the old optic nerves...

She was also the character Mary in 4 episodes of Jeremiah....

-D

 

[Dayton3]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

I like the time period the DVDs are being set in myself. And I would tend to agree that they come in at about where the end of Crusade would've been.

As for Lochley being in the same position for 10 years, its entirely possible given that she was on the side of the Civil War that lost that she would've been somewhat out of favor in the years afterwards.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

...given that she was on the side of the Civil War that lost that she would've been somewhat out of favor...

It probably was not a matter of her not staying true to her EarthForce oath (half of EarthForce did the same because many - probably including Lochley - were never given the kind of illegal orders that forced others to throw in their lot with Sheridan.)

I think it more likely that Lochley may have done things during both the Telepath War and the period when the Excalibur was a renegade that displeased some of her superiors. Also in what amounts to a peacetime military it wouldn't be surprsing for someone to stay in a given slot given the lack of promotion opportunities. The B5 command slot is a difficult job, and a tricky assignment - as Garibaldi pointed out long ago. A high-profile assignment, but also one with a high potentiial for carreer suicide. And after the IA is formed, it is less important. Proably a lot of people who would be qualified for it didn't want the job, and those who did want it weren't qualifed. It was also the base of a rebellion against Earth, the flashpoint for the Teep War and was probably at least suspected of complicity with the IA in supporting Gideon when he was officially a wanted man. Altogether B5 was probably something of an embarassment to Earth after 2262, and the fact that its diplomatic mission was largely supplanted by Minbar would have made it less of a priority. Lochley was experience, competent, got along well with all the alien governments, and had close personal connections wiith key figures in the IA, which made her valuable as a diplomat. If she was willing to stick with the post for awhile (and she might given the importance she attached to the place) Earth would be foolish to let her go.

All this assumes that Colonel Lochley is still in charge of B5 and not commanding a ship that is taking shore leave there and runs into a problem. There's no law that says only the station commander can summon a priest to B5, after all, nor is it necessarily the case that the kind of problem that might require a priest to resolve is something that would be handled through the normal chain of command.

Regards,

Joe

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

Lochley was experience, competent, got along well with all the alien governments, and had close personal connections wiith key figures in the IA, which made her valuable as a diplomat. If she was willing to stick with the post for awhile (and she might given the importance she attached to the place) Earth would be foolish to let her go.

Earth would be a very foolish place to go. This is set at the end of Crusade. Earth could have been under quarantine for the last 5 years. Not much room for promotion there.

The supply of spare from Earth would have stopped, so half the Earthforce ships in existence when the IA was formed are probably out of order. A lot of unemployed captains around.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

Earth would be a very foolish place to go.

Did someone suggest that Lochley or anyone else go to Earth?

This is set at the end of Crusade. Earth could have been under quarantine for the last 5 years. Not much room for promotion there.

The quarrantine would have been lifted when the cure was apparently discovered somewhere around episode 211. That's one of the reasons that Gideon's mission would be so critical when it was discovered the cure wasn't entirely what they thought it was. (And give the powers that be one more reason to deny that suggestion or try to keep it secret.)

The supply of spare [parts] from Earth would have stopped, so half the Earthforce ships in existence when the IA was formed are probably out of order. A lot of unemployed captains around.

Yeah,it isn't like they could possibly build factories anywhere else to make desperately needed spare parts.

In the wake of the E-M war Earth certainly would have learned how foolish it was to put all of one's eggs in one basket. I'm sure many components were made in mulitple plants,most of located on varoius colonies. Mars had a thriving industrial sector and Proxima and other planets would have also wanted to be as self-sufficient as possible rather than have to import things from Earth. EarthForce would necessarily have had bases on its own worlds and in League systems to repair and refit its deep patrol ships, just like blue water navies from the British in the 1800s to the U.S. Navy today have had allied bases, coaling stations, oil depots and various support systems scattered around the globe.

The Japanese, Germans and Russians all managed to keep their military industries going during WWII despite having their industiral centers either bombed flat or actually seized by invading armies. (Stalin had whole factories packed up and transported beyone the Urals in the face of the advancing Germans, as I recall.) Somehow I think the Humans of the 2260s would have managed at least as well in the wake of the Drakh attack and that the fleet was still just fine, thanks, apart from those units destroyed in the battle against the Drakh force itself.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Galahad]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

I'm confused now.

Ive just looked up the army and navy rank structures and a navy Captain is the same rank as an army Colonel. In that case Lochely has not been promoted, just moved sideways.

I read somewhere that the rank sctructure of the EA doesn't strictly adhere to an American system, it is more of an amalgamation of models. For example Majors outrank Captains on the show which is more in line with the British model.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

For example Majors outrank Captains on the show which is more in line with the British model.

??? Majors outrank captains everywhere, as far as I konw, as long as you're talking about ground forces. Obviously naval captains are a different matter.

With a few minor exceptions, mostly in the exact classifications of enlisted ranks and things like Sub-Lieutenant being used in the Royal Navy and Ensign in the American one, the two militaries have essentially the same rank structure. (Not surprising since the American military was based on the British model.) In the American Army, Navy and Air Force a major also outranks a captain. A naval captain, in either country, outranks a major. (The user of "captain" in both instances leads to confusion.)

It is not, by the way, the case that Major Ryan outranked the captains of other EarthForce ships that went over to the rebel side. Once they all broke away they were effectively outside the formal rank structure anyway. Ryan was Hague's senior surviving aide and most familiar with his plans. Just as the crew of his ship accepted him as Hague's successor, so did the captains of the ships who saw themselves as joining "Hague's team" in resisting Clark. But strictly speaking Sheridan and all the other captains outranked Ryan. They accepted him as their leader in the battle for purely practical reasons.

And JMS follows the American/British models except insofar as he mixes naval and ground forces ranks. He even correctly makes Garibaldi a Chief Warrant Officer. So there's no indication that he's invented some novel system in which a colonel outranks a naval captain. (It wouldn't make sense to use the conventional names if you wanted a wholly novel rank structure, because no one would understand what you are going without an explanation. Writing is about clarity and communication. You don't deliberately make something obscure and confusing for no good reason. It is relatively easy to figure that generals in blude uniforms commanding spacefleet occupy the same senior rank that used to be called "admiral". Changing the rank equivalencies doesn't make any sense at all and wouldn't be nearly as clear.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[MMarin]

Actual B5:TLT News

These are once again very interesting times.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

I'm not even 100% sure that Ryan was in command in the "Severed Dreams" fight. He, Hiroshi, and Sheridan seemed to be cooperating fairly closely, but deferring to each other in various matters. I always sort of assumed that Sheridan was nominally in charge, as the fight was on his turf.

Did any of them actually give orders to any of the others? Ryan ordered Hiroshi to get to the lifepods, but that was more of a "save yourself, you can't do any more" situation than an actual executive decision.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

The crew of Hague's flagship was certainly taking orders from a "mere" major. And after the battle Ryan seemed to be in overall command of the ships that were sticking together to continue rounding up more of the fleet. Anyway I mostly mentioned him in case anyone confused the Ryan situation was an example of a "major outranking a captain." Sort of a "pre-emptive example".

Joe

 

[KoshFan]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

No question that Ryan was in charge aboard the Alexander, but I'm pretty sure he was the ranking officer aboard her. It seems to me that Sheridan was Senior Officer Present overall, although we don't know much about Captain Hiroshi.

In short, I've never understood where the "major outranking a captain" controversy came from.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: JMS\'s 12/1 post

The supply of spare [parts] from Earth would have stopped, so half the Earthforce ships in existence when the IA was formed are probably out of order. A lot of unemployed captains around.

Yeah,it isn't like they could possibly build factories anywhere else to make desperately needed spare parts.

Easy if Earth is on line, hard if Earth is quarantined. All the colonies were small.