B5:TLT Actual DISCUSSION Thread

[PillowRock]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

Because B5 fandom has, from the beginning, been so much more of a 'net based community than Trek or even X-Files fandom, I suspect it is one of the few series that sold the majority of discs via the web rather than at brick and mortar stores.

Except that I think that this shifted at least part way back toward a more normal mix once many of those active-on-the-net fans became aware of WB's recurring hub problems in the packaging ..... and the associated high rate of scratched disks and return / exchange issues. (I know that I made that switch in buying habits when the third season came out.)

No matter how good an e-tailer is about exchanging scratched disks, it's always easier and quicker to deal with that stuff locally. And those sets got so bad that I can recall standing at the Best Buy sevice counter cannibalizing two or three sets to construct one good one after my exchanged set also had scratched disks.

 

[Recoil]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

Not that I felt that an opinion such as mine was worthy of triggering a rant, but I guess I can see that if you are frustrated with hearing something over and over. However, I'm not the only one that shares the opinion that the Rangers movie was far below spectacular (don't care what the reasons were, it just was). Still Jan, I really gotta disagree with your philosophy on the matter.

I fully realize that if I added up all the hours of B5 that were spectacular, and those that were "bad or wasted" that the good GREATLY outnumbers the bad. No need to convince me of that. Also, as far as B5 TV-movies went, Rangers was the only one I felt was truly *bad*. All of the others had strong points, even the weaker one (which IMO was River of Souls).

What you don't realize, is that not everyone thinks like that, or should think that way. My point was that Rangers was the *LAST* B5 project that there was, so it left a sour taste in a lot of peoples' mouths. Now does that mean that TLT could just pick up where Rangers left off in the bad department? No, of course not. But its only natural for people to have that little voice in the back of their head, referring to the last B5 project we all experienced.

And that is really what my point was. I'm not trying to be a harbringer of doom here in saying that its gonna suck. I don't think it will, for a lot of reasons. I was only saying that there is that little voice in the back of my head because of Rangers that had me a bit nervous. And IMO, thats only a bit natural.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

Not that I felt that an opinion such as mine was worthy of triggering a rant, but I guess I can see that if you are frustrated with hearing something over and over. However, I'm not the only one that shares the opinion that the Rangers movie was far below spectacular (don't care what the reasons were, it just was). Still Jan, I really gotta disagree with your philosophy on the matter.

I fully realize that if I added up all the hours of B5 that were spectacular, and those that were "bad or wasted" that the good GREATLY outnumbers the bad. No need to convince me of that. Also, as far as B5 TV-movies went, Rangers was the only one I felt was truly *bad*. All of the others had strong points, even the weaker one (which IMO was River of Souls).

What you don't realize, is that not everyone thinks like that, or should think that way. My point was that Rangers was the *LAST* B5 project that there was, so it left a sour taste in a lot of peoples' mouths. Now does that mean that TLT could just pick up where Rangers left off in the bad department? No, of course not. But its only natural for people to have that little voice in the back of their head, referring to the last B5 project we all experienced.

And that is really what my point was. I'm not trying to be a harbringer of doom here in saying that its gonna suck. I don't think it will, for a lot of reasons. I was only saying that there is that little voice in the back of my head because of Rangers that had me a bit nervous. And IMO, thats only a bit natural.

You make valid points Recoil, but, do you believe fans of B5 would automatically look at Rangers and worry, or would they recognize the difference between "filling in details" of an existing series as TLT is doing, versus trying to start a whole new series with a whole new arc (As Rangers failed to accomplish). I think most B5 fans acknowledge that The Gathering had it's weaknesses on the surface, that didn't look so bad when reviewing it with the whole series behind you.

 

[Recoil]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

You make valid points Recoil, but, do you believe fans of B5 would automatically look at Rangers and worry, or would they recognize the difference between "filling in details" of an existing series as TLT is doing, versus trying to start a whole new series with a whole new arc (As Rangers failed to accomplish). I think most B5 fans acknowledge that The Gathering had it's weaknesses on the surface, that didn't look so bad when reviewing it with the whole series behind you.

Of course note, but then, I'm not making that comparison either. My opinion of Rangers (and perhaps others opinion as well) was based on its merits. Period. I didn't compare it, as a standalone pilot, to that of a show with an arc. I looked at Rangers for what it was, a standalone story, with plot, dialogue, and a tale to tell. And on those merits, I felt it wasn't very good and I didn't like it. Hell even if I were to view it as a story set in the B5 universe it wouldn't change my opinion of it.

So no, I'm not making these complex comparisons. Although its ironic in that both TLT and Rangers are doing the same thing. They are "filling in details" as you put it, in the B5 universe.

And for the record, "The Gathering" didn't really impress me either. I watched it when it came out, and tuned out B5 for good. It wasn't until I caught it in reruns years later (and even then I started watching those reruns in Season 2) that I saw the show as a whole for what it was. I was not the only one on this board, I'm sure, that had that experience.

But you just can't compare Rangers being a pilot of a potential new show, to the Gathering. Sorry, but the B5 universe and JMS had over 5 years under their belt when they filmed Rangers, and they learned a LOT in that time. Because it was a pilot isn't a an excuse for it falling short. It just did (at least to me), and that's all there is to it.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

I solved the "sour taste" problem by never watching LotRangers.

 

[Jan]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

I solved the "sour taste" problem by never watching LotRangers.

Then you missed some great comedic moments for G'Kar and the last performance of Andreas Katsulas. Your loss.

Jan

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

I didn't have a problem with the Rangers pilot; it didn't look any worse (or better) than the original broadcast version of "The Gathering," IMHO. And in the case of the Rangers pilot, we at least had history with JMS and knew about his abilities and talents. Which is why I'm always surprised by the visceral, negative reaction this project causes in some people. Where's the patience, and the trust? Where is the love, people?

 

[KoshN]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

What you don't realize, is that not everyone thinks like that, or should think that way. My point was that Rangers was the *LAST* B5 project that there was, so it left a sour taste in a lot of peoples' mouths. Now does that mean that TLT could just pick up where Rangers left off in the bad department? No, of course not. But its only natural for people to have that little voice in the back of their head, referring to the last B5 project we all experienced.

And that is really what my point was. I'm not trying to be a harbringer of doom here in saying that its gonna suck. I don't think it will, for a lot of reasons. I was only saying that there is that little voice in the back of my head because of Rangers that had me a bit nervous. And IMO, thats only a bit natural.

The appearance of Sheridan and Galen should go a long way toward comforting those nerves.

G'Kar and the last performance of Andreas Katsulas.

That's 50% of why I bought it. The other 50% is due to Dulann, Na'Feel and Firell.

I didn't have a problem with the Rangers pilot; it didn't look any worse (or better) than the original broadcast version of "The Gathering," IMHO. And in the case of the Rangers pilot, we at least had history with JMS and knew about his abilities and talents. Which is why I'm always surprised by the visceral, negative reaction this project causes in some people. Where's the patience, and the trust? Where is the love, people?

It is because of our history with JMS and what we knew about his abilities and talents. It's so far below what we were used to after the midpoint of Season 1 of B5, and it's far below 99% of what we got in Crusade. It was like being taken out of a warm bath and thrown into an icy river, not pleasant at all. It was a SHOCK. That shouldn't be so very hard to understand.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

I didn't have a problem with the Rangers pilot; it didn't look any worse (or better) than the original broadcast version of "The Gathering," IMHO. And in the case of the Rangers pilot, we at least had history with JMS and knew about his abilities and talents. Which is why I'm always surprised by the visceral, negative reaction this project causes in some people. Where's the patience, and the trust? Where is the love, people?

Patience, trust, love? From the entertainment industry? :laugh:

I'm going to risk JMS fandom here, and say:

1) Rangers was very weak. It had its moments but... not enough. It never swept you up in anticipation.

2) To some fans it seemed like a quickly thrown-together project. Some fans (not me) even referred to it as "insulting".

Unfortunately, JMS really raised the bar on science fiction, and some of his fans are worried that nothing that isn't part of a long-term developed overall theme will be very good.

I will note: I am not one of them. I didn't like the pilot, but loved the characters, and figured JMS would fine-tune the rest as the series went on. Which, of course, it never did.

So all I'm saying is: some fans who love the series B5, and note some serious weaknesses even in the B5 tv-movies, are just afraid they haven't seen something that they like from JMS since season 5, B5.

Oh, and I won't bring up comments I've heard about Crusade, it might cause someone here to have an attack. And I personally was crushed when it didn't go on.

Anyhow, JMS has an odd following: some who are guaranteed to watch/buy anything he puts out, and some who are real pains in the bottom-side because "this isn't as good as B5".

So, we shall see what we shall see. Keep the interest up, and I guess kick the nay-sayers on the shins. :devil:

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

Patience, trust, love? From the entertainment industry? :laugh:

No, from the fans. But apparently your "laugh" response still fits.

Regards,

Joe

 

[KoshN]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

Patience, trust, love? From the entertainment industry? :laugh:

Amy means from B5 fans, not the industry (e.g. The Sci-Fi Channel, Warner Brothers, etc.).

I'm going to risk JMS fandom here, and say:

1) Rangers was very weak. It had its moments but... not enough. It never swept you up in anticipation.

Agreed.

2) To some fans it seemed like a quickly thrown-together project.

<Raises hand.> That'd be me.

Unfortunately, JMS really raised the bar on science fiction, and some of his fans are worried that nothing that isn't part of a long-term developed overall theme will be very good.

I will note: I am not one of them. I didn't like the pilot, but loved the characters, and figured JMS would fine-tune the rest as the series went on. Which, of course, it never did.

I loved some of the characters. OTOH, some were awful.

So all I'm saying is: some fans who love the series B5, and note some serious weaknesses even in the B5 tv-movies, are just afraid they haven't seen something that they like from JMS since season 5, B5.

In my case, since Crusade.

Oh, and I won't bring up comments I've heard about Crusade, it might cause someone here to have an attack.

I'm guessing that'd be me, ...but you could be talking about Tim.

And I personally was crushed when it didn't go on.

I was crushed when The Sci-Fi Channel didn't continue Crusade and instead went with the Rangers pilot. To me, that was the only natural outcome. Yes, JoeD, I know why they didn't continue Crusade, now, but then, not continuing Crusade and instead going with the Rangers pilot seemed utterly ridiculous.

Anyhow, JMS has an odd following: some who are guaranteed to watch/buy anything he puts out, and some who are real pains in the bottom-side because "this isn't as good as B5".

I'm somewhere inbetween.

 

[Recoil]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

Well this thread certainly has gotten off topic a bit, although its still B5 related so at least it belongs on this group of forums.

Just gonna say this.

I am a JMS fan. He put the bar for Television (not just SciFi) way above anything else I have seen. Few shows come close.

I do get tired of his close supporters and die hard fans defending every single thing the guy does as if he is perfect. Hes not. Rangers is proof. But at the same time, it was below the standards he set for many reasons.

I'd wager if you asked JMS himself, and if he would ever give an honest answer, he would probably tell you Rangers was one of his worst projects.

I really didn't mean for this to turn into a rant fest, but hey, everyone has opinions.

Lastly, as I said before, while Rangers was weak, I still do think TLT will turn out to be good. I think Sheridan, Galen, and the others being in the show will assist with that, but I do think it will be a more polished and thought-out project than Rangers "appeared" to be.

While I do look forward to TLT and have since its first announcement, there always is that little tiny spec of doubt saying "what if...". I'm probably not the only one who has it, and its only natural. But as I said, its a pretty tiny spec, far smaller than deserved the attention it got here.

Anyway, now back to our regularly scheduled news thread.

 

[Jan]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

I do get tired of his close supporters and die hard fans defending every single thing the guy does as if he is perfect. Hes not. Rangers is proof. But at the same time, it was below the standards he set for many reasons..

Ah, Recoil...I know you're not doing it on purpose but I think you've only got one more of my major hot buttons to hit. You just happen to catch this one because I was busy when Hypatia wrote "I'm going to risk JMS fandom here, and say..."

_I_ get tired of people repeating the old canard that there are a bunch of "close supporters and die hard fans defending every single thing the guy does as if he is perfect." Baloney. What you'll actually find is a bunch of fans who are willing to *try* anything that JMS turns his hand to whether it's novels, TV, comics, fairy tales, movies, columns or whatever. Try. Not necessarily like, but at least try. They may just not find it necessary to go on (and on and on in some cases) about whatever they don't like, instead focusing on the positive. Dismissing people who have different opinions from yours as 'followers' or 'die hard fans' is insulting because it sets you and your opinions up as being 'better' or more 'realistic'. That may not be what you mean, but that's exactly the attitude that comes across.

You don't have to love everything JMS writes to be a Straczynski fan (you just need to be able to spell his name <g>) and you don't have to be a JMS fan to be a B5 fan. You don't have to adore Crusade or Rangers or the TV movies to be a B5 fan, for that matter. And you shouldn't have to be labled a 'follower' if you happen to enjoy things others don't and defend the things you like as vigorously as they proclaim thier dislikes.

"The universe speaks in many languages but only one voice..."

Jan

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

Jan makes an excellent point, and it's definitely a hot-button issue for me, too. One of the reasons I think there is this perception of a bunch of die-hard JMS fans who even think that what he does in the bathroom doesn't stink <g> is because of the existence of the moderated newsgroup. JMS hangs out there. So while that doesn't completely preclude negative commentary, it does dampen it quite a bit. I liken it to a cocktail party: if you were at somebody's house having drinks with an author, where it was a party for that author, most people wouldn't walk up to the author (or loudly say to the room in general) how much they thought the author's second book in the series stunk. Most people would realize that that is a breach of etiquette, and that there are plenty of other places where that opinion can be expressed -- but a cocktail party for that author wouldn't be the most appropriate choice. (Once in awhile though, some drunk idiot comes in and starts spouting sewage and has to be reminded to be civilized...)

Sure, Rangers may not have been the best thing JMS ever did, but if I put down every book that didn't grab me on the first page, I'd have a lot of unread books in my house. Similarly, I don't much care for JMS's comic, "Book of Lost Souls" for various reasons, but it doesn't mean I'm going to stop reading Amazing Spiderman, or not pick up Thor when it starts, because I fear that JMS is suddenly going to start using Gaimanesque cliches in ALL of his comics.

JMS has a lot of 'literary capital' with me. I'm not going to start slamming TLT before we've seen it, or start wringing my hands in worry over it six months before it's out, because JMS has proven to me that he knows how to write television. I say, innocent until proven guilty. How do you think most of you would have looked back upon Bablyon 5 if we'd only had the first two or three episodes, or even just the pilot, and then the show was pulled?

 

[Sindatur]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

See, I also think Rangers was the weakest of all of Babylon 5, as it stands. The weak stuff in the original series (The Gathering, and the weaker episodes) we can see their places in the arc, and understand at least what was the reason for them, and most have a strong B story to go with the weak "A" story). However, I don't think Rangers was "filling in the details of the original" as TLT is doing, and I don't see it as a stand alone story. I see it as the first couple pages of chapter 1 of a new B5 story that never had the chance to develop, and in that sense, I compare it to the Gathering, which by itself is very weak, but, when viewed as part of the original Babylon 5 story, The Gathering has it's merits. We haven't seen what Rangers could become, so therefore we can't see the merits. I think if Rangers had the opportunity to go all the way through, we would definitely be able to see the merits of it.

TLT, on the other hand, already has it's arc from B5, and will merely be the details behind things we heard briefly mentioned, at least that is the impression I have gotten.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

No, from the fans. But apparently your "laugh" response still fits.

Regards,

Joe

And I think asking for patience with this lot is... a nice dream.

If it's any consolation, Joe, I don't think anyone is outright saying "I'll believe a TLT dvd will come out when I see it for sale".

I think even those have lightened up a bit. Either that, or they've become silent.

Speaking of impatience, will someone mention it when it's available for pre-order?

 

[RW7427]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

If it's any consolation, Joe, I don't think anyone is outright saying "I'll believe a TLT dvd will come out when I see it for sale".

I think even those have lightened up a bit. Either that, or they've become silent.

I'm one of those being silent.

But once I see that movie out I'll be all happy and stuff.

 

[RMcD]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

I think all my anxieties around TLT can be summed up in four words: 'Firefly and Battlestar Galactica'. The reason I have no real problem with the Rangers pilot is that it came (just) before those two series, and in the period 1993 - 2002 even sub-par Babylon 5 was still the best sci-fi being committed to television by far. But the above series really underline the amazing progression that's happened in just 5 years, and I don't think it's unfair to say that in some respects the standards and expectations are different now than they were then (although I would never compare the original B5 to later series, because they aren't contemporary and B5 paved the way).

Obviously TLT is designed to appeal to existing B5 fans - it doesn't need shaky-cam, overlapping dialogue or vast expensive sets and effects, nor should those things be shoehorned into it because that's not what B5 is and it wouldn't be B5.. On the other hand it's impossible to ignore the fact that things (and existing fans) have moved on, and that even such quaint notions as human actors wearing prosthetic makeup to play aliens aren't really of the moment any more.

So what I'm hoping to see (and fairly confident of, given what JMS has said) is something that's both unmistakably B5, and yet at the same time at least some minor reinvention, just to acknowledge the fact that we are not in the same place now that we were even the relatively short time ago that Rangers was made..

 

[T_Fleming]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

Just a comment regarding "Rangers".

When my girlfriend (eventual wife) and I first sat down to watch "The Gathering" back in 1993 (February I think) I fell asleep after the first hour. It bored me. There were some things that were interesting, like Kosh and the Vorlons, however I found the whole Idea of a United Nations in space to be a bit mundane. Moreover, I was unimpressed with the Commander. I thought his demeanor was almost to relaxed. Anyway, in short, I thought "The Gathering" was not very good.

A year later when the B5 series finally made it to air, my girlfriend bugged me to watch it. I figured "OK, if it sucks I can have fun making fun of it". Well, I remember that it didn't suck. Yet the preview for next week's episode would show something that I thought would be foolish. We'd tune in again expecting it to suck. It didn't. By the end of season 1 we were hooked (I also thought that Sinclair was a fantastic character).

Of course my point in all this is that "Rangers" didn't get a chance. As a pilot I like it better than "The Gathering". It seemed to show more possibility. I didn't have any problems with the strange weapons systems. I just kept imagining where this could all go.

Back in 1999, I got into several on-line fights with people who were unimpressed with the "Crusade" pilot "Warzone". It sucked, it wasn't as good as B5 yada yada yada. They failed to see the potential. Yet I stand by the fact that the first 13 episodes of "Crusade" (especially the initial five before TNT interference) best the first 13 of "Babylon 5". These days I find many more people that lament the death of "Crusade" than probably watched it and appreciated it at the time. Perhaps the DVDs and the clarity of time has allowed this.

My point in all this is that any judgment about "Rangers" must be made with caution. It's objective was NOT to be a stand-alone movie. Its objective was to set the stage for the story (whatever that was going to be) to come. And like "The Gathering" it had both positive and negative aspects. Imagine if B5 had ended after "The Gathering", if anyone did discuss it it would mostly be in a negative light. Having seen what "The Gathering" set the table for, we can (or at least I can) look back and say "Hey that wasn't so bad". Unfortunately "Rangers" will never get that sort of redemption.

 

[KoshN]

Re: Actual B5:TLT News

I think all my anxieties around TLT can be summed up in four words: 'Firefly and Battlestar Galactica'. The reason I have no real problem with the Rangers pilot is that it came (just) before those two series, and in the period 1993 - 2002 even sub-par Babylon 5 was still the best sci-fi being committed to television by far. But the above series really underline the amazing progression that's happened in just 5 years, and I don't think it's unfair to say that in some respects the standards and expectations are different now than they were then (although I would never compare the original B5 to later series, because they aren't contemporary and B5 paved the way).

Talking about the look (e.g. of the CGI) and the sense of visual continuity with the B5 universe (which IMHO, was an area where the Rangers pilot was very weak), if B5:TLT come out at B5 Season 5 thru Crusade level, I'll be happy.

Obviously TLT is designed to appeal to existing B5 fans - it doesn't need shaky-cam, overlapping dialogue or vast expensive sets and effects, nor should those things be shoehorned into it because that's not what B5 is and it wouldn't be B5.

It'd be nice if the CGI effects approached BSG 2003+ level, nice, but not a requirement for me to like B5:TLT.

On the other hand it's impossible to ignore the fact that things (and existing fans) have moved on, and that even such quaint notions as human actors wearing prosthetic makeup to play aliens aren't really of the moment any more.

Moved on? Sure, we are watching other shows, but that doesn't mean that we will view "human actors wearing prosthetic makeup to play aliens" as quaint or old fashioned. Just because BSG 2003+ and Firefly didn't do that , doesn't mean that "human actors wearing prosthetic makeup to play aliens" is now passe.

So what I'm hoping to see (and fairly confident of, given what JMS has said) is something that's both unmistakably B5, and yet at the same time at least some minor reinvention, just to acknowledge the fact that we are not in the same place now that we were even the relatively short time ago that Rangers was made.

I'm hoping to see something that is unmistakably B5 (familiar aliens and ships) but with higher quality (higher res./more detailed) CGI.