B5LR: Disappointment

[GKarsEye]

Why can't G'Kar believe more in some myths than others? Most people in real life do that.

Just because he take some "myths" seriously, doesn't mean he has to believe in everything. Being spiritual doesn't always mean being gullible.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[Lareth]

B5LR takes place in 2265, 2 1/2 years after Objects at Rest. Humans helped design the Valen, not the Liandra, which is why the Valen looked like a flying brick according to David Martel. Exactly when humans started joining the Rangers is unclear to me.
Certainly after Sinclair became Ranger 1, but possible before that, after the Earth/Minbari war. I'd have to reread To Dream in the City of Sorrows to be sure.

I thought this was very good for a pilot. As a stand-alone movie, it goes nowhere. I was pleased with the acting, especially considering all the other pilots I've seen, like The Gathering, which was not even close. Lots of lines in this one were throw-aways for people who know the backstory well, but I expected that. The ending was weak, as nothing was really resolved or explained. Again, fine for a pilot but not a stand-alone.

The potential for the new series looks very good to me, although I really prefer the Crusade story line. I like the idea of a crossover between them, though.

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Lareth

A Non-Aligned World unto myself.

 

[Akai]

As far as comparing Legend of the Rangers with the Gathering one thing must be kept in mind: The Gathering was introducing the viewer to a new universe, new alien races, new ships, a new "look" in general, as well as new characters and a lot of political complexities. Naturally the result is going to be a bit messy but it's enough to be the foundation for a very successful five year long series.

Legend of the Rangers does not have the same excuse for its shortcomings. It already has an established universe with a well defined history, alien races, ship designs, etc. Yet it still manages to fail horribly. Part of that has to do with lousy dialog, a dull cast of characters, relying on cliches about a renegade captain and his misfit crew on a broken down ship, removing just about every familiar element from prior B5 continuity (different jump point and hyperspace FX, no Whitestars or Sharlin cruisers, Minbari cities looking different, different Ranger uniforms, no collapsable pikes, etc.), having yet another uberpowerful ancient alien race as the main threat, not to mention some gaping plot holes (if the Valen is the Rangers' best new ship and it is on such an important mission why give it a piece 'o crap ship with an unreliable crew as its only escort? Why didn't the Valen have fighters that it could have deployed to defend itself? If the Hand is so friggin' old and powerful then how could they have been so easily bamboozled--twice?). Crusade did a much better job establishing itself in a one hour pilot that had been dumbed down by the TNT pinheads. I was really expecting a lot better from JMS and company after all these years of great programs.

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Spoo: it's what's for dinner.

 

[Dunedain]

I stand by my original statement:

G'kar NEVER thought the myths were just myths

G'kar was a very spiritual Narn. It seems counter to his nature to dismiss the scriptures of Shaquann as poppy-cock. There's no evidence in B5 that he ever had to warm up to the idea of a dark force actually existing in the universe.

Besides, even if he did once think that the myths were just myths, what use is it referring back to an opinion twice removed? As of 2260, everyone knew there was something to the myths. Seems to me it would have been more germane to say "until recently, I thought these myths were referring to the Shadows."

guess I just have a problem with a movie about the Rangers that says the word "Shadow" all of twice.

Random question: when is the chronology to this? I thought I read that it was around 2264, but Dulann said that humans helped build the Liandra (maybe I'm remembering wrong). The Liandra is 20 years old, placing human architects in the Rangers around 2244. B5 starts in 2258, 10 years after the Earth-Minbari war (placing the end of the war around 2248). What are humans doing in the Rangers 4 years before humans and Minbari have had any contact?

as I said, I could be remembering some line from the movie wrong.... please enlighten. Thanks

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[jaxb5ranger]

I'll take a stab at this, coming at from someone who rated the movie a solid 'B':

""As far as comparing Legend of the Rangers with the Gathering one thing must be kept in mind: The Gathering was introducing the viewer to a new universe, new alien races, new ships, a new "look" in general, as well as new characters and a lot of political complexities. Naturally the result is going to be a bit messy but it's enough to be the foundation for a very successful five year long series.
Legend of the Rangers does not have the same excuse for its shortcomings. It already has an established universe with a well defined history, alien races, ship designs, etc.""

And LotR still had to introduce all that and more to new viewers while also paying due respect to the established viewers. Just because you know what happened in B5 does not mean everyone else watching did.

""Yet it still manages to fail horribly.""
A matter of opinion...

""Part of that has to do with lousy dialog,""
Some was lousy, some was brilliant. It certainly had the feel of the rest of the body of JMS' work

""a dull cast of characters""
really? So in a 2 hour movie, every character should get, what 20 minutes to make us love them? I thought the characters that got significant screen time (David, Sarah, Malcolm, Dulan, etc) were very interesting.

""relying on cliches about a renegade captain and his misfit crew on a broken down ship""

Such an abstraction can be made about every told in every medium. It's silly beyond belief to dismiss the story on such a sophmoric point. Do you also think the Illiad is "a bunch of guys fighting over a woman"?

""removing just about every familiar element from prior B5 continuity (different jump point and hyperspace FX, no Whitestars or Sharlin cruisers, Minbari cities looking different, different Ranger uniforms, no collapsable pikes, etc.)""

Yep those are really the things that made me love B5 - I've lost count of the number of times I've told people "Man you should watch this show - they have the BEST hypersapce effects, and man you will just love the cool pikes!" I like B5 for more substantial reasons. Plus, you're inaccurate. We did see the old Ranger uniforms, they explained the lack of familiar ships (they were stretch thin with thier wide ranging responsibilities). As for the cities, grow up: they still incorporated Minbari flares and supports in a different arrangement. So you're going to insist that they have to look identical? I guess Savannah and New York look the same to you?

""having yet another uberpowerful ancient alien race as the main threat,""

I think others have covered this point before - I'll skip it: either you are patient with the story or not.

""if the Valen is the Rangers' best new ship and it is on such an important mission why give it a piece 'o crap ship with an unreliable crew as its only escort?""

Explained in the movie. Feel free to watch the scene where the Liandra's assignment is revealed. Plus who said the crew is unreliable? It's a new crew, but that's not the same thing. Plus, consider: the mission is supposed to be clandestine. Two ships attract less attention.

""Why didn't the Valen have fighters that it could have deployed to defend itself?""

How do you know it doesn't? It was ambushed.

""If the Hand is so friggin' old and powerful then how could they have been so easily bamboozled--twice?)""

Arrogance on being fooled. Not thier true technology as to why the explosions had the effect.

""Crusade did a much better job establishing itself in a one hour pilot that had been dumbed down by the TNT pinheads.""

Except that if JMS had had his way, A Call to Arms would have served as the only intro to Crusade. And we'd have learned about the series and characters by jumping right in. This seems to follow that pattern. I think most people are of the opinion that War Zone is a very weak episode.


""I was really expecting a lot better from JMS and company after all these years of great programs.""

Somwhere along the line, if you could, let us know what would have made it better for you rather than just griping. And something substantial - not just pikes, and the effect of the jump gates.

Look I don't like the gunnery pod's punching and kicking. I got tired of hearing "We live for the one, we die for the one". I thought Dulan's uniform looked like a bathrobe, and I think the Hand's ships were not shown very well. But with those faults, I find the movie was still very good.

I hope you're just having a case of unrealistic expectations. I hope you'll give the series (if it comes) a chance. I just think you're being unfairly harsh.



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-Devin Barber

 

[Casper]

Just wondering. Did anybody read the last paragraph? I stated that with a little help and some TLC the show may become a great success. I just fell that the people involed with the movie (behind the camra) have been working together for years. By now they should have a handle on how to make a great show, but it seemed like thwey were forced to do a job that noone whated to do. Iwas being so harsh becuase we as veiwqer, and fans expect more. If this goes to a series I hope they well take all the postings with some weight.

 

[Akai]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Somwhere along the line, if you could, let us know what would have made it better for you rather than just griping. And something substantial - not just pikes, and the effect of the jump gates.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
First thing, I would have liked to see a scenario in the beginning of the film that better illustrated why the Rangers are supposed to be willing to give up their lives in a fight. Say, for instance, if the Raider ships had been hitting some trade routes near some worlds that could be potential ISA allies. By deciding to run instead of fight to the death the captain allowed some Raiders to get away and later cause some further trouble that causes the potential ally to lose confidence in the Rangers..seeing them as meddlers instead of a force that actually cares about protecting civillized worlds. I would have liked to hear at least a reference to Ranger One, even if she could not appear in the movie, as having something to do with assigning David to the Liandra. I would have liked to hear a little more background on the Liandra aside from it being haunted. I would have liked to heard a bit more about the background of the crew members besides some cryptic naming ceremony. I would have liked the ghost subplot to be more hinted at instead of being so obvious..leave it up to later episodes to develop the plot and make it a lot creepier. I would have liked to see the Valen have a chance to defend itself just a little bit before being blown away. I would have liked to see a plot that did not revolve around another ancient horror from billions of years ago. When the war between the Shadows and the Vorlons ended and the First Ones left the galaxy I got the impression that the show's theme from that point on was that the younger races would now have to make their own destinies...and deal with the consequences of their efforts...and the rest of Season 4 and all of Season 5 dealt with that theme very well. Even in A Call to Arms and Crusade that theme was continued with the Drakh war. The Drakh were very formidable on their own but they were still one of the younger races, trying to take the place of the Shadows while the humans and the Minbari were on their way to taking the place of the Vorlons. That worked very well, but throwing yet another ancient super powerful race into the galaxy seems to cheapen that theme. The press behind LOTR said that the movie would be about the Rangers trying to restore order to a galaxy thrown into disarray by the Shadow War, and there is certainly plenty of politics and intrigue and crisis to be found among the younger races...I think that a plot revolving around defusing a war between worlds or something along those lines would have better illusrated what the Rangers stand for. Of course I would have liked to see the weapons pod idea done a little differently but I now understand why it ended up the way it did. I could have done without the constant repetition of "We live for the One, we die for the One." The Rangers should be about actions, not catchy phrases; it should be a philosophy that they live and breathe without the stiff posturing. I would have liked to see one of the Warrior Caste give G'Kar a swift kick to the nuts for intruding on one too many Gray Council meetings.

Obviously none of that is going to happen because the movie is already done and I'm just going to have to live with it. A Call to Arms kind of put me off at first but I came to really like it with repeated viewings and maybe the same will be the case for LOTR. I do hope that there will be a new series based on LOTR, although I'd still rather see Crusade brought back from the grave (I was just getting into the story in the last six episodes!!) and I'm sure that a lot of these issues will be fixed and I'm sure that I will love it. It doesn't change the fact that I was a part of a group of four die-hard B5 fans that were wanting to take a hot shower to wash off the experience of watching the movie on Saturday night. I feel that it just wasn't up to the standard of the other movies...nonetheless I do feel pretty confident that it could do well as a series.
Thanks again.

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Spoo: it's what's for dinner.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My wife and I gave the B-5 Ranger movie 4 out of 5 stars. As in excellent.

We thought the acting was very good. Much better then I thought it would be. I was very pleased. We are both huge B-5 fans!!!
The hugest probably. I'm sure someone out there will claim otherwise, but it's true.
we're completely ape for JMS's world.

The movie stands alone as being rather unique. Legend is a new fresh ship, a new crew, a new view on a old idea. So let's give them some space to let the universe develop before we start bashing, okay?

What do you mean the first season of B-5 was bad? What about Babylon Squared, Mind War, The Grail, Voice In the Wilderness I& II, And The Sky Full Of Stars and on and on....... Those episodes were very rich in plot tapestry, not to mention intense and well acted. How can you claim to be a true B-5 fan and not like season one? Your intitled to your opinion of coarse, but don't butcher a good season. Just because the Shadows weren't in it doesn't mean it was lame. Give season one a far shot. Go back and watch the episodes I mentioned again, I think you will agree you under estimated it. They are very well made.

As for your comment about Legend of the Rangers not having a cohesive storyline.... How do you know it isn't left vague for a reason? Isn't that what season one is for? If the show develops I'm sure JMS will explain much better all the minuet details, right down to the last tastey morsel.
So keep your britches on,... it will only get better. That I promise you!!! [Heh, were talking about Joe Straczynski here people... The mans a genius........]

I do however which to comment on two troubling things. As much as it does burden my heart to have to say it. I didn't care for the human virtual weapon deal. My wife and I thought it was cartoony. But no pilot is 100% perfect. But please change that JMS, please,please,please. No offense intended though.

What is up with this 'Hand Of God' stuff. A evil dark enemy with a name like that. Come on, kinda bordering on God slamming don't you think? That's treading on dangerous ground. We care for you JMS very much, I want the Lord to bless you not curse you. I hope you reconsider the name. Drop the God part. Just 'The Hand' is fine.

All things considered though, other than those two things,I felt it was a mighty fine, KICK BUNS project. Wild effects, sweet ship designs and superb acting. Especially by Dylan. I would be honored to call myself a Ranger fan, any day of the week. I salute you JMS for all the risks you took on this project and your valient efforts to keep the dream alive. Keep up the good work and God bless.

As for the 'negative everything' writer I'm responding to.... Losen up a little bit I think you'll be plesently suprised if you give life a chance. Heck give B-5 LR a chance......Not everything is gloom.

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Steven S McLaughlin

[This message has been edited by for the one (edited January 27, 2002).]

 

[PsionTen]

At its best, the movie was only slightly above-average. Frankly, I was expecting something truly kick-ass. I suppose the only exceptional thing was the special effects ... Minbar has never looked so good. Other than guys who played David and Dulann, everyone else was either so-so all the way to bad. That chick who played the gunner should probably reimburse her paycheck, because she didn't do a thing but read off lines and look surprised. The storytelling had holes, the main one which was pointed out in cinescape... did it really take a ship full of ghosts and and hour for these guys to figure out that there was a spy on board? This friggen' ship didn't know the signal was coming from the Liandra because of "line of sight?" Gimme a break.

All in all, I would give in two-and-a-half stars out of five. I can see now why sci-fi wanted to wait and see how it did before it commissioned a new series. This is the death knell of the B5 franchise.

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

 

[GKarsEye]

PsionTen, I think I saw you on an episode of the Simpsons once, where you ran a comic book store.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[Recoil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
PsionTen, I think I saw you on an episode of the Simpsons once, where you ran a comic book store.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oso true. But you gotta give the guy some credit GKE. At least he isn't one of these mofos that has popped up since the 19th just to bitch and moan. He has been around the last 9 months telling us all how much he didnt like Crusade, and all sorts of flaws he found in B5. Yessir, 4 stars of complaints. People, are we really suprised that he didnt like this movie? I for one called that reaction quite some time ago from this fella.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

 

[Tigara]

Ya know what? I think someone should set up a b*tch and moan forum so the complainers will stop clogging this one. Just a thought

Personally I'm quite fond of LOTR

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Sheridan:Are you sure we can't jump
Lennierositive
Sheridan:Then we have a problem
Lennier:No $h!t Sherlock
Sheridan:RUN FOR IT!!!!
Downbelow Sound Archive

 

[Tigara]

Of course we must always be accepting to misguided thoughts in the kingdom of the blind.

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Sheridan:Are you sure we can't jump
Lennierositive
Sheridan:Then we have a problem
Lennier:No $h!t Sherlock
Sheridan:RUN FOR IT!!!!
Downbelow Sound Archive

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Akai:

I noticed many valid expectations in your post, but they don't really fit within 2x42 minutes.

I hope to see them in the series.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I would have liked to see one of the Warrior Caste give G'Kar a swift kick to the nuts for intruding on one too many Gray Council meetings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But why? He never did intrude any Gray Council meetings. You don't accidentally walk into the Grey Council. This was the Ranger Council -- which guides the everyday activity of Rangers. Most Minbari governmental assemblies have nine members.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>What is up with this 'Hand Of God' stuff. A evil dark enemy with a name like that. Come on, kinda bordering on God slamming don't you think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have nothing against slamming any concept, should it seem justified. I guess it's my Shadow side with no respect for authority. But this is clearly not a case of "slamming".

I find it perfectly comprehensible. This far, JMS has shown great respect for all beliefs, but he does like to remind that every belief can be misused. And he likes to ask difficult questions.

During our short history, the list of people who have justified their crimes with being "the hand of god" has grown pretty long. This is one of the difficult questions our kind has to face.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 24, 2002).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

*Sigh* more unintelligent criticism. I should expect it but still it rankles me.

1) Its G'Quan not Shasquan or anything similar. Know the universe before you criticize. If you can't remember, check out the Lurker's Guide at www.midwinter.com.

2) G'Kar was a very angry Narn but also the first to realize that the evil mentioned in the book of G'Quan was returning. It wasn't until he was touched by Kosh did we start to see a mystic side start to come out. Even then he didn't complete his journey until Season 5. That has nothing to do with any other myths that may or may not exist in the B5 Universe.

2) As other mentioned the Liandra is a Minbari ship and the Valen was built by human and Minbari. It was also destroyed rather quickly by the SERVENTS of the Hand, so it never got a chance to defend itself. Sad to say we will never know its true capabilities.

3) Hand=Shadows. Really? Aside from them being old and sealed off in another dimension what else do we know about the Hand? Only what a traitor decided to mention. Is he right? Is G'Kar right? Who knows? Yet people are looking at the movie and assuming they completely understand this threat and its going to be exactly like the Shadow war. Please, don't be stupid ok. Did we hear of the thirdspace aliens before the movie? Show me the scene where Lorien or anyone sat down and explained every detail of the B5 Universe from start to finish. Unless you can do that, you are assuming a lot and we all know what assuming makes you.

3) Tuzanor looks different, no this that or the other.. First, Mibar is recovering from a destructive civil war. Think Hiroshima looks the same now as it did before the Bomb? How about most European cities. Of course it looks different!

On a more practical note, JMS has pointed out that all the special effects from B5 and Crusade have been LOST! The raw material was given over to WB who managed to lose it. Hence no neat special effects to drag from the archive. Everything had to be rebuilt from scratch. This explaiins why they couldn't just toss in a Sharlin there, a star fury here so on and so forth. Re-rendering all those effects to give a 2 second thrill was simply too expensive.

Its sad to think that alleged fans of B5 completely forget how many times JMS has shown us something with one hand and then completely twisted it about with the other. To paraphrase G'Kar, nothing with JMS is exactly what it seems.

Think about this, those of you expecting another Shadow war, Delenn in "Rising Star" mentions both the Telepath War and the Drakh War, but no war with the Hand. Now while the Hand may or may not play a role in either conflicts, its a safe bet that whatever plot the Hand creates it will not involve a huge shooting war. That points to something subtler and different. Which is the hallmark of the B5 universe.

Sheesh, show some faith!!

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Lyta lives!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Nyght, I couldn't agree with you more! It's one thing to have constructive criticism. But many of the people on this topic just shredded the movie to bits and that is highly unfair.

And what the heck is up with you PsionTen?
What do you mean B-5 LR spells the death blow to the franchise? Look, if you don't like it at all, then don't watch it! But don't go destroying a good thing for the rest of us. And yes

I"m rippen mad!!!

This can be a KICK-IN Bun serious if the corporate heads and the fans give Mr Straczynski a change. PLease everone, I beg you, those who like it, write in and say it.
Those who didn't, try and be a little patient until we at least are well into the new serious. Remember, constructive criticism is a tool for the wise, but word bashing is the path of regets.

So let's keep JMS's dream alive.........

Word to the wise.........
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"You have always been here." Kosh (Speaking to Sheridan, from: All Alone In The Night)

"Love to stay, can't, have to go, kiss kiss, love love, bye." G'kar (B-5 LR)

 

[bakana]

I keep seeing posts that assume the Enemy we saw in this movie was the Hand.

But the Movie very specifically SAID it was a coalition of Servant Races who are trying to find a way to release the Hand from the Prison the First Ones left them in.

Unless the servant races Succeed, we might never see the Hand.
Which has to count as a GOOD thing.
Considering just how nasty the Shadows could be without much more than stern disapproval from the other First Ones, imagine just what sort of Class A SOBs the Hand must have been to get sentenced to Eternity in Prison.

Hey, JMS is doing Lucifer's fall into Hell.

Or, perhaps it's Cthulu.


As far as the Hand declaring themselves to be the "Hand Of God", why take umbrage with JMS over his Characters' blasphemy??

Just because the Hand makes grandiose claims (Through a Servant Race's mouth, at that) doesn't make that claim true in any sense.

It does give us an idea what motivates the servant races.
They are stupid enough to fall for the old "Worship me, I'm Evil, but I'll spare you if you grovel" routine.
They are either too stupid and gullible to deserve pity or they are so psycho they look forward to dying horrible deaths when they succeed in releasing the Hand from prison.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited January 25, 2002).]

 

[Technomage Roanna]

I had to wait to see the movie because I was away. In the meantime I'd read some of the bitter comments and was afraid I would not find enough to like in the show to be able to comment.

Putting aside the trashy invective masquerading as "true fan" criticism, acting and writing in any show are the things I rely on to keep my interest in a show.

Then I watched my tape.

And I had to laugh. With joy.

And at the snarky little comments that made B5LR sound like the equivalent of an artistic misdeameanor committed on an unsuspecting world.

Yes, there were some clunky lines. (and no, repeating the "Live for the one" motto didn't both me in the least. "Semper Fi" anyone?)

And Capt Gregg was stiff and wooden long before he hit the deck, I'm sorry to say.

But disappointed? HELL NO!!!! This was vintage Straczynski. He left holes to be filled in later, and shoveled misdirection at us, and made bad jokes. Quelle surprise.

And straddled the gap between those of us who get all the in jokes about Swedish meatballs and those who think B5 is a vitamin found in dark green leafy vegetables.

It set up the initiating conflict of the series, and introduced us to some fascinating characters. Which is exactly what a pilot is supposed to do.

Let me repeat that. EXACTLY WHAT A PILOT IS SUPPOSED TO DO.


The production design is new, but clearly rooted in the universe I was already familiar with. I like the command table very much. And the gunnery pod approach will take some getting used to. That's the price of innovation, and I'll gladly give it a chance to grow.

To those who are sitting with knotted knickers about the design of the ships and the "look" of hyperspace, I suggest a cool cloth and a nice lie down until the snit passes.

Congratulations to all the production staff and cast. Whatever color the light is on the series decision, you've done some excellent work I hope you will look on with pride for years to come.

My letters to SFC and the sponsors will be going out Monday. I want more, more, more.

Ro

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A ship in a port is safe, but that's not what ships are for.

Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper

 

[bakana]

The thing I find funny about people's reaction to the gunnery pod is that something similar was the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the Holographic battle display during the Shadow War.

OK, you've got the entire battle spread out around you.
Place IFF info on that same display.
Red halo around enemy ships, perhaps.

Then, the people standing/sitting in the middle of that display simply Point to the targets they want the computer to shoot.

In point of fact, that's how it's done NOW, except we use Solid computer/radar screens, not holographic.
The Weapons/Tactical Officer looks at the Radar/Computer display, decides which targets are most important/dangerous, points to the targets using a joystick or mouse, presses a button to designate a Target, then presses Another button to tell the computer Which weapon(s) to use.
He keeps doing this until he runs out of targets.
The computer relays the info to the people operating the particular weapons and they take care of things from there.
Until they run out of targets.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[RW7427]

Love, your post Ro!

Yeah, we should remember that this was just a pilot movie. I personally liked it very much, but agree that there were plot holes and etc., as all pilot movies have. JMS probably left it that way so that he could fill those holes when it got to series.

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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.