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Babylon 5 Rangers

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**DONOTDELETE**

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Babylon 5, the creator JMS created a fantastic story line behind Babylon 5. Althought, it was the orginal story line is what made it great. And the fantastic graphics that was made with it. I really do hope they are the same before so far from the little B5LR preview, it didnt show any ships and the ship seem to have been smaller inside. I hope that they suprise me and make the graphics just as good. Wasnt just the graphics and script that made it great, it was also the characters, the acting. All fantastic. I was really hoping for Delenn and Sheridan to be in it. They both are the head of the Alliance and Share equal authority over the Rangers. I wish that they could have been in this new series more than anything. But G'kar, he is a wise choice as well. He is one of there greatest actors. He will bring a nice spark to this new series. Thanks..
 
G'Kar is not in the series, because there is no series yet. All we have is a pilot movie, that may become a series. But, I have little fear about the new movie/series. JMS writes great characters, like in B5 and Crusade. He writes great stories, as in the above, and he chooses good actors, as in the above. I have no doubt B5LR will be the same. I do not want any B5 or Crusade regulars as regulars in the possible series. We already saw that story, it is time to tell another one. I would love cameo appearances, though.

I think that Legend of the Rangers will fire our imaginations to new heights, just like Babylon 5 did, and Crusade tried to. All we have to do it wait, and give JMS our support (by watching).


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"Good things come to those who wait"

The entire series like Dekion said is unknown, scifi needs to test this new movie on the market. As for cameos I think the most mentioned characters would have to be Sheriden and Delenn. There's just one problem with that though. Since they are in charge of the rangers it is likely that they would be mentioned fairly often which means they would have to appear fairly often. (and everyone knows that wouldn't happen) so in all reallity it looks like if there was going to be a show, in the storyline the plots of B5 characters would be advanced sometimes without their appearence. Such as hearing reports about characters and so on.
Now any fan of B5 or Crusade would probably find this somewhat annoying, but it is a necessary evil...

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Yes, you are right in saying that the CGI was part of what made B5 so good. And being that the Rangers project is also JMS work, I'm sure he will not settle for a product inferior to B5. I think we have a lot of good things to look forward to!

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Sheridan to Bester:
And I could nail your head to the table, set fire to it, and feed your charred remains to the Pak'ma'ra.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Since they are in charge of the rangers it is likely that they would be mentioned fairly often which means they would have to appear fairly often.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is wrong on both counts. Franklin Roosevelt was President of the United States and Commander in Chief of the Armed forces for most of WWII. Chester Nimitz was in over-all command of U.S. Naval forces in the Pacific, while Dwight Eisenhower was commander-in-chief of all Western Allied forces in Europe.

If you were doing a series about a destroyer in the Pacific or a Tank platoon in Europe you odds are you wouldn't hear a lot about any of these people because the regulars wouldn't be getting their orders from them, but from folks much further down the chain of command. And they might not ever appear on-screen in the series. How many times did Harry Truman or Douglas MacArthur visit the 4077th during the run of M*A*S*H? (OK, MacArthur drove past the place in a jeep once.
smile.gif
)

Logically the crew of one of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of Rangers ships working with the alien races to undo the damage from the Shadow War would rarely have direct contact with Ranger One or the President of the Alliance. There wouldn't even be a reason to refer to them all that often. I doubt that the President or the Chief of Naval Operations are discussed on a daily basis aboard U.S. warships.

Yes, I'm sure there will be cameos when the budget and schedules allow, but I don't think they will be frequent, and I don't think that will cause any problems.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Joe is correct, I did 4 years of service, (USAF,) and I mentioned the President / Commander in Chief as much as I do today. Although our unit received 2 Presidential Unit Awards, (consecutive,) we did not see, meet, or even hear words written by the President.
Also, as a reminder, this ship is not in favor with the Rangers, and Ranger One or The President of the Alliance might hear if the ship was lost. Kind of in the text of...
"The Liandra has been lost near the (pick you fav.) system"
Ranger One replies, "Send a Whitestar to investigate."
No banners, no heavy sentiment, just an old ship gone. I like this not being a 'center of attention' vessel, it will give a a true view of what being a Ranger is all about!

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[This message has been edited by Hesperous (edited June 26, 2001).]
 
I have to agree, reluctantly, that the chances of seeing much of the B5 cast in the series is almost nil, and since we don't even know for sure that there will be a series it seems pointless to keep on discussing the series as if it were a sure thing.

As for cast appearances, do you recall in The Coming of Shadows there was a message from Sinclair on Garibaldi's screen. I believe JMS said that was done by a long distance interface while Michael O'Hare was working in New York. Using that method, it would be easy to put in little cameo messages from one of the actors without having to fly him/her up to Vancouver.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I believe JMS said that was done by a long distance interface while Michael O'Hare was working in New York.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I think JMS said it was done before O'Hare left for New York...

On the LG page for TCoS:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>We nailed a piece with Michael before he left for New York; when we shot "Points," he had long since returned to NY and was in the process of pursuing other things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And in a message dated 06/06/1994:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The reason Michael was here today was so we could film a piece that will appear later in season two, and will set up the framework for further appearances by Sinclair down the road.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a message dated 10/02/1994:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>We knew that Michael would be returning to New York soon to pursue some long-standing options, and since we knew we'd be needing him (and I knew where and when), I scripted out material for when he is seen again, and we filmed that prior to his jaunt so we wouldn't have to shlep him clear across the country later, and in case he should indeed be busy at the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for cameos by Sheridan or Delenn in Rangers, I'd think that could happen occasionally when the crew visits the Ranger HQ on Minbar. And they could run into Franklin on Earth, Garibaldi on Mars...
smile.gif


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vakie

[This message has been edited by vakie (edited June 26, 2001).]
 
In terms of graphics... if anything they will be held back. What can be done today is far, far beyond B5's days. If anything they'll be holding it back to match B5 a bit more. I wish they wouldn't... I'd rather just go for straight-off realism.


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Dreg: "Most beauteous and supremely magnificent one, this dark spell I hold in my worthless and scabby hand is our gift to you, most tingly and wonderful Glorificus..."
Glory: "Please, call me Glory. And get up, looking at you is hurting my neck."
Dreg: "Forgive me, shiny special one. I beg of you to rip out my inadequate tongue."
Glory: "Gimme."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> If you were doing a series about a destroyer in the Pacific or a Tank platoon in Europe you odds are you wouldn't hear a lot about any of these people because the regulars wouldn't be getting their orders from them, but from folks much further down the chain of command. And they might not ever appear on-screen in the series. How many times did Harry Truman or Douglas MacArthur visit the 4077th during the run of M*A*S*H? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think thats a little over said. In that case it might be. But this isnt the United States Military. In what war have u ever heard of the US being apart of that involved the President at the war zone or even in the same country as the war was going on and giving orders? That is very very very unheard of by a United States President
smile.gif
dont you think? Sheridan and Delenn faught in the Shadow War. Sheridan fought in the Earth Alliance civil war, and faught to defend Earth against the Drahk. Now how many of you can say that u think a US President would do the same? HAHA, I think not my fellow B5 fans. So according to your comparison with the government of the Interstellar Allaince and the United States, well, lets just say Kosh said it best a few times, "Impudent", "Incorrect", "Irrilavent". :) Have a Good Day :)

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[This message has been edited by CaptSheridan (edited June 28, 2001).]
 
I disagree with the above... (Don't want to copy the entire posting by "CaptSheridan"

Sheridan was a military officer in all the above mentioned wars, (except the Drahk engagement, but he was given the visions, and had no choice.) As a Military Leader in the Shadow War, it is his responsibility to be at the front in the final battle. Prior to that, most of his time was spent in the war room, planning, Governing B5, ect. Fighting in the EA civil war, again he was a Military Leader, on board the Flagship of his fleet, (the Agamemnon!!! We love the Agy!!!
laugh.gif
), again, as is his responsibility.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Sheridan and Delenn faught in the Shadow War. Sheridan fought in the Earth Alliance civil war, and faught to defend Earth against the Drahk. Now how many of you can say that u think a US President would do the same?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, except for the Drakh attack on Earth, all of the fights you mentioned took place before there was an Interstellar Alliance - and obviously before Sheridan was President of it. So, this point is mostly, to quote your post, "Irrelevant!" In the Shadow War and the Earth Civil War Sheridan was acting as what he was - a soldier. Only later did he go into politics. This has been the pattern with many U.S. Presidents, from George Washington to Dwight Eisenhower and beyond.

BTW, James Madison personally commanded U.S. troops outside Washington D.C. during the War of 1812 - the last time a President directly commanded troops in the field. (Although Lincoln travelled close to the front lines during our Civil War, and was close enough to the fighting that the building he was observing from drew fire at least once.)

The situation in ACtA is an exceptional one on many levels. Galen essentially manipulated Sheridan into acting in secret because he was the only one who could do what had to be done. And, of course, ACtA was told mostly from his point of view, and involved the crew of the ship he was on. If the movie had been about the crew of one of the Earth destroyers that was suddenly pulled into the final battle, the movie could have been made without Sheridan in it, and it is very unlikely that the crew would have had any contact with him.

I notice that you completely ignore the rest of my analogy - that of the service Chiefs and other high-ranking military personnel to Delenn's position of Ranger One and Entil'Zha. Eisenhower and and other high ranking staff officers in the ETO made it to Europe. But they still didn't hang around with every random tank crew.

Again, it is a matter of what the story is about. If Rangers is about the particular crew of a particular Rangers ship on a mission in alien space they are not going to be stopping in a Minbar every other week and we are not going to see Sheridan and/or Delenn very often.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Good points all of you. You claimed that Sheridan was a military leader and it was his responsibility and yatta yatta. Oh course it was his responsibility, he was the leader. But how does that stop an American president from doing it. I mean, be honest with me, am I wrong when I thought the presidents title in the military was the Commander in Chief? I mean, its his responsibility and his duty to be at the front line of a battle as much as Sheridan was in his battles.. He might have had the visions during the Drakh war but doesnt mean he had to be on the Excalibar at the front of every single ship. He could have stood in the back and commanded the fleet. And when u said about the Shadow war that he was on a Minbari ship and in the battle room, maybe so but he was still there and in the war. How many of you know an american president present at world war 1, 2, vietnam, the korean conflict, any of the above. Lincoln was there at times yes, but was he there for every major battle like Sheridan was at most the battles. He put his life on the line several times as Captain, even when he knew he was the leader of the allied ships and he knew his responsibilities, he still took risk that Presidents or "leaders of huge fleets" havent done. Still very hard to compare the US military and government to Sheridans leadership. They both had great responsibility. As Captain he mine as well been a President. He led those ships into the Shadow War like he was a President because he was the commander in chief of that fleet. Looking forward to hearing some replies to debate this more. Good day.

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"The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice. The language is not Narn, or Human, or Centuari, or Gaium, or Minbari. It speaks in the language of hope. It speaks in the language of trust." ~ It speaks as One! We are One!
 
I beleive there were several times when Patton was reprimanded for getting Too Close to the action during WW2. He did have a bad habit of climbing into a tank and heading for the front lines. There are a number of photos showing him with most of his torso Out of the hatch while the shooting was still going on.

Patton was an anomaly. A talented General who was also an Adrenaline Junkie. Few Adrenaline junkies live long enough to make it to General. They tend to get both themselves and their troops killed.




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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
????

Also George Washington, as President, led a detachment of troops at one point - during Shay's Rebellion if memory serves.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I have said before, bravo on the Herculian memory, Joe. He led troops against the farmers who did not like the whiskey tax.

Being Commander-in-chief does not mean they go to the front. Think of the disruption in the overall war effort if the President was killed becuase he went to the front. Consistent leadership at the upper levels is key. In WWII, although it is hard to say for sure, think of the possible disruptions that could have resulted from Roosevelt or Churchill been killed or captured coming back from Tehran or Yalta, or even what may have occured had Roosevelt lost the 1944 election. Although I doubt that Secretary Stimson would have let him do it, Stevenson could have tried to have his own people take over key positions like Sec. of war, state, etc.

You generally do not want anything to happen that will disrupt the chain of command. Look at the trouble the federal troops had in the early years of the US civil war, when they were going through commanding generals like they all had the plague.

You need to go back and look at those examples you gave. Joe is right, Sheridan was a regular line officer in all of those engagements except for ACtA. Therefor it was his duty to be there.




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A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both.
 
BTW, the scenes showing Sherdan commanding the battle for Earth from the Agamemnon are wrong from a military perspective. JMS lack of military background shows here.


The episode shows Sheridan taking over the Agamemnon and the Captains Post so he can command the battle. It can't be done like that. If he commands the Battle, he isn't going to be able to command the Agamemnon at the same time. Both are Full Time Jobs. The Agamemnon's captain would keep HIS job. Sheridan would tell each ship's captain "Go There and Do This" including the Agamemnon.

In reality, the Aggie would stay pretty close to the center of the fleet so that Sheridan could keep track of the Entire Battle.

Interestingly enough, in the battles against the Shadows, we see him doing just That from the Minbari ship. He's telling, not individual ships, but entire Groups of ships where to move in order to do the most good. Which is how fleet command works in real life. The Head Honcho (Admiral) directs the Fleet's Squadrons, each of which has a Junior Admiral or Commodore aboard to tell the individual captains what to do in response to the Fleet Admiral's orders. The individual ships each has a Captain who directs ONLY his/her own ship according to the Junior Admiral's orders.



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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The Agamemnon's captain would keep HIS job. Sheridan would tell each ship's captain "Go There and Do This" including the Agamemnon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is exactly what General Lefcourt does while commanding the Earth Forces at Mars. He directs the battle, like an admiral on this flagship, the ship's captain fights the ship (to the extent that the flagship is directly engaged.)

So with those scenes, Sheridan's actions in "Into the Fire" and the Gray Council's command at the Line as shown in In the Beginning it seems that JMS did have some idea of how these things should go. More likely the anomaly of Sheridan taking the center seat aboard Agamemnon was a deliberate excercise of poetic license.

In fact, the ship may still have been fought by the Aggie's captain, with Sheridan commanding just the battle until quite late in the fight when Agamemnon is isolated and he personally gives the order to ram the last defense platform. Since the ship wasn't fitted out as a flagship and had no separate facilities for a commanding admiral and his staff, it might just have been easier for Sheridan to run the battle from the Captain's seat while the actual skipper controlled the ship from another bridge position.

Finally, from a story point of view, it was important that Sheridan resume his interrupted command of Agamemnon for the final battle, no only for his own character arc, but as the last of a series of acts of near-fatal hubris, thereby underscoring the symbolic reason the ship was given that name in the first place.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
????

File this one under "unclear on the concept." B5 is a fictional TV show that nonetheless tries to be as realistic as possible while still adhering to the rules of drama. Therefore, in things like ACtA you get Sheridan in situations which no military leader would be permitted to get into. (And why all this picking on the American President? Somebody want to name me a British Prime Minister who led troops from the front during any major wars?)

The fact is that in the age of rapid-firing weapons hardly any senior military commanders run things "from the front." It isn't practical. The day when Napoleon or Wellington could actually stand on a hill and see the battle taking place before them is long gone. I suggest reading British military historian John Kegan's book The Mask of Command if you want to understand the changing role of military leadership. Grant "led" from the rear, for the most part, where he could direct operations. So did Eisenhower, Bradley and the British Imperial General Staff. Montgomery and Patton put themselves closer to the action, but were rarely in the lead when their forces moved.

(Winston Churchill very much wanted to go in with the first troops on D-Day, but his military advisors wisely stopped him. Of course, Winston always was a bit of a romantic.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>How many of you know an american president present at world war 1, 2, vietnam, the korean conflict, any of the above.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The American President for most of WWII was wheelchair bound, not exactly the most mobile person in the world. Nonetheless he travelled to Europe and Africa during the War, and the Soviet Union immediately afterwards. Eisenhower toured Korea. John Kennedy never went to Vietnam, but he sent his Attorney General (and brother) on a fact-finding mission there. I believe Lyndon Johnson also visited troops in Vietnam. What's your point?

"Commander in Chief" is not the military rank of the President of the United States. The President is a civilian. The Constitution makes him Commander in Chief and requires that he appoint all officers as a way of establishing absolute civilian control over the military. (Abuses by military authorities were one of the major reasons the revolution happened in the first place. The Framers of the Constitution were very suspicious of standing armies, and with good reason.

The Constitution never anticipated the President personally taking the field at the head of an army, just controlling what that army did from behind the lines. (Although, as noted, James Madison did just that when the Federal City itself was invaded by British troops. Also George Washington, as President, led a detachment of troops at one point - during Shay's Rebellion if memory serves.)

So your nitpicks don't apply, and the essential point of my post, that the fact that Rangers will be a new show, about new characters, not Babylon 6 or B5: The Next Generation still seems to have escaped you.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:

Finally, from a story point of view, it was important that Sheridan resume his interrupted command of Agamemnon for the final battle, no only for his own character arc, but as the last of a series of acts of near-fatal hubris, thereby underscoring the symbolic reason the ship was given that name in the first place.

Regards,

Joe

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah, that whole Orestia thingy. Very good point. You got to love symbolism.

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A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both.

[This message has been edited by The Juche Warrior (edited June 29, 2001).]
 
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