Day of the Dead

[eirik]

How many times can I watch B5 episodes until I get sick of it? I don't know but the number is getting pretty high.

In this episode, I remembered something that annoyed me and I thought I'd share it with you.

When Morden asserted that Lennier would betray the Rangers, those who have seen all of Season 5 may know what that might be referring to. Although, we really don't know for certain but I'll leave that point alone for now.

To me, I feel as though, while a poor choice of words, Lennier betrayed the Rangers in this episode, "Day of the Dead". More precisely, Lennier let the Rangers down by missing a fantastic opportunity for intelligence.

Morden was at the heart of the Shadow efforts. He was aware of much regarding the Shadow allies or minions, including the Drakh and others. These minions are known to present a threat to the Interstellar Alliance and others. If I had been Lennier, I would have seized this opportunity to learn what I could from Morden about the minions. Instead, Lennier, as far as the episode and subsequent episodes indicate, he did not. What a bummer!

Eirik

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It never ends; it only changes!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Lennier chose what he believed... and this was something he had no wish to believe. If someone would tell me that I will betray something which I value, and refuse to present any proof... then I would consider it malicious and ignore. It seems that Lennier didn't quite understand what Morden meant.

Perhaps he also believed that he would get nothing useful out of Morden. Morden himself said that he knew only the future, not the present.

And any plans he had been drawing for the Shadows... were already dismantled, failed and gone. Broken by their own creators. Morden would know very little about the Drakh -- because when acting alone, the Drakh do not act like Shadows.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 14, 2002).]

 

[eirik]

Remember Morden's last words with Londo when Londo destroyed the Shadow base on Centauri prime, something about the Shadow allies getting their revenge upon him and Cenaturi Prime.

Morden knows more than Sheridan does about the Drakh. He may not know their current plans. But he may know how the operate, how they organize, their capabilities, their strengths and weaknesses, and he may even know if they have a home planet and where it might be located.

He also knows of the other Shadow allies. He may only know their names and a little background information on them but still it would be more than Sheridan has on them, as far as the B5 productions have let us know.

So, I think Morden would have extremely valuable information about the Shadow allies, considering that Sheridan knows almost nothing about them.

Eirik

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It never ends; it only changes!

 

[Arrghman]

the ISA at this point has only seen the drakh once... they dont even know if they really are a threat, and lennier had no reason to even trust morden anyway...

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[eirik]

There's no guarantee that Morden would say anything. But even lies are informative. The Cold War was fought along these lines. Lennier still could have learned much about the Shadow allies. Besides, I suspect Morden wanted to share information.

Eirik

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It never ends; it only changes!

 

[GKarsEye]

eirik, you are assuming that that was indeed Morden who visited Lennier. But Morden is dead.

We don't know what it was that caused people to see dead folks. It is equally or more plausible to understand that they were visions, personifications, or representations of dead people. Morden's ghost-like doppelganger, then, would not actually know all the stuff that Morden would know. He only knew what he had to tell Lennier.

The Day of the Dead provided people with the opportunity to speak with those who the need to speak to, not with those they want to speak to. Sometimes they are the same (Garibaldi's case, perhaps), and sometimes they are not, as in Lennier's case. Lennier needed some "tough love," and who better than Morden to provide a cold, hard look at reality?

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[Morden]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daave:
when was the first time the ISA saw the Drakh?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More or less, in "Lines of Communication."


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"Ink on a page!" -Refa describing the moral depths of a treaty.
"Life is life, whether it's wrapped in skin, scales or feathers." -Dr. Franklin

 

[GKarsEye]

Lennier, you're welcom, I suppose. I'm always happy to be a cause for one of your novelic posts.

And to answer your question: no, no one outside the Brakiri "zone" saw any dead people.

If it was indeed some tech and/or telepathy, that would certainly explain why it was so important for the Brakiri to own the space.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[bakana]

Well, if it had been an Illusion, Telepathic or otherwise, the Stellarcom & Babcom systems wouldn't have recorded Garibaldi's adjustment for communications to the rest of B5 as originating on the Brakiri homeworld.
It's kinda tough to hypnotize a computer, let alone the entire communication system.

Plus, I seem to recall that, when Lochley called Sheridan to report what was going on, Sheridan saw Zoe in the background of her call.

This is one of those things that is best to accept at (more or less) face value.
JMS didn't explain How it happened.
Just that it Did.
And that it will be 200 Years before it is possible to study it again if they want to figure out just What really goes on during the Day fo the Dead.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[crazybillyo]

How far does this day go back in Brakiri history? If less than a millenium, might want to suspect techomagery...

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Sheridan: Are you trying to cheer me up?
Ivanova: No sir, wouldn't dream of it.
Sheridan: Good, I hate being cheered up. It's depressing.
Ivanova: So in that case we're all going to die horrible, painful, lingering deaths.
Sheridan: Thank you, I feel so much better now.

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> How far does this day go back in Brakiri history? If less than a millenium, might want to suspect techomagery...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, since it's a Religious event that only happens at 200 Year Intervals, it is unlikely to be technology.
There just isn't any Payoff in a fraud that happens so rarely.
Plus, the religious angle makes it likely that it goes back Much further in Brakiri history.
5 times in 1000 years isn't often enough to embed it so deeply into the Brakiri culture that it becomes Universal which this seems to be.

The evidence is that, on the Brakiri Homeworld, Everyone gets a visitation.
That's just too much fraud for Anyone, even the Vorlons and Shadows, to manage.

BTW, note that the Brakiri are not surprised that all the Non Brakiri in the zone got visitations.
That would mean that alien visitors to the Brakiri homeworld on previos occasions had also been visited and that the Brakiri expected it.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited February 16, 2002).]

 

[hypatia]

What kind of visitations do you suppose the children get (and others who might not know anyone who has died yet?)

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"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

 

[GKarsEye]

bakana, it's possible (of course, I'm just hypothemasising here), that the religious tradition of the Day of the Dead is ancient, and that people reported seeing dead folks, much the same way we have "records" of prophets and messiahs performing and predicting miracles. All of us can point to such reports of "miracles" that we don't accept: for example, a Christian would deny that Mohammed's spirit ascended to heaven, a Jew would deny that Christ was resurrected, an atheist would deny both, etc.

Perhaps at some point, as the tech and/or drugs became available, they were quietly introduced into the ceremonies.

What would be the motivation? To strengthen the people's faith.

Besides, people don't need drugs or telepathy for this sort of thing. Sometimes, faith is enough. Just look at voodoo rituals. Participants whip themselves up into a frenzy and become "posessed." Perhaps such a thing used to be done by the Brakiri, which was later gradually replaced or enhanced via tech or drugs.

But of course, we just take it at face value, I know. It's fun to guess and make stuff up, though.

hypatia, remember Londo wanted to see the first Centauri emperor. If such a thing is possible (seeing a historical figure or someone you never met before), then children could also see someone they never met before. Perhaps an ancestor.

Or, children might be immune. I wouldn't want my kids talking to dead people- that could seriously f*** them up.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

[This message has been edited by GKarsEye (edited February 16, 2002).]

 

[eirik]

If the Day of the Dead phenomenon were brought about consciously by the Brakiri, they would have one hell of a tool that could be used for war or espionage.

I do not think the Brakiri can control it other than by attracting the phenomenon when it returns. The Brakiri were spreading some kind of powder around. They evidently learned that this can somehow attract the phenomenon. I doubt they have the slightest clue as to how it works because they could then employ this technology for other means that would make them quite a power.

As for my original bone to pick with Lennier, whether or not he would get any useful information from Morden is irrelevant to my point. Lennier didn't even try! Nothing ventured nothing gained. He might have learned much.

In the scenes with Lennier, Morden seemed to want to talk with Lennier; he wanted to answer Lennier's questions.

In the mage novel (#3), Morden didn't feel that he was worth saving even if he wanted to be saved. This sports a bit of guilt or conscious. If the aborition (sp?) truly was Morden, I should think he'd at least want to explain why he did what he did either to boast of it or to justify it or maybe even to express regret.

But Lennier didn't give him a chance to open up. Naturally, in response, Morden wore his mask of cool and unperturbed that served him so well with the Shadows.

Lennier didn't even try. We all fail to seize opportunities one time or another. He simply screwed up.

Eirik

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It never ends; it only changes!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Lennier acted very strangely. If a Shadow agent, dead or not, would turn up in my quarters, I would ask him to leave.

If he would wish to talk but I would not, he should go and find someone else to talk with. I sure as hell wouldn't walk away and leave Morden into my quarters! Hell knows what he might acieve, ghost or otherwise.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[wipster]

Lennier was shaken up by Morden's comments about 1) how Delenn would never love him in the same way he loved her, and 2) that he would betray the Anla'Shok... he did not want to believe either and therefore tryed to shut out Morden completely and convince himself that he was never there, making these "predictions" untrue, because he did not want to 1) admit them to himself (even though I'm sure he subconsciously realized it about Delenn), and 2) believe he could ever betray the Anla'Shok.

I find it rather ironic, because the entire reason he returned to B5 for this episode (at least that he admitted) was to be part of the "Day of the Dead." When he didn't get want he wanted (whatever that was), he tried to convince himself it didn't happen. Funny what unrequited love will make you do...

Zoot zoot

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Wipster

"Live Long in Prosser"

 

[bakana]

The premise of "Day of the Dead" is that each person who receives a "Visitation" gets the person and/or message which will be of most benefit to his/her soul.
They are, of course, free to reject that message as Lennier did.

As far as questioning Morden, Lennier couldn't ask any Other questions without first accepting the message that was given him.
He seemed to Know that from his research into the Brakiri legends he had studied.
I suspect that Lennier came to B5 hoping for a message that would tell him his Dreams would come True.

Lennier wasn't strong enough to overcome his dissappointment in getting exactly the Opposite message.

So, he retreated from the message.
First by trying to retreat Physically, then by retreating into meditation.

After all, he knew he couldn't Kill the Messenger, since Morden was already suffering from an advanced state of decomposition.




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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> the ISA at this point has only seen the drakh once... they dont even know if they really are a threat, and lennier had no reason to even trust morden anyway... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


when was the first time the ISA saw the Drakh?

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[En'til'zha]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
JMS didn't explain How it happened.
Just that it Did.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JMS didn't explain it because he didn't write it, Neil Gaiman did (he's the author that the Gaim are named after). If you've ever read anything by him before you will know that the events probably were spiritual.

Anyway, this is B5 not ST, we don't need technobabble explanations for things, not knowing is part of the mystery. But if you look at the evidence we are presented with it seems likely that it was 'real', otherwise station personel would have been able to find some trace of drugs or energy emissions or something.

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"Watch the Shadows, they move when you're not looking..."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thank you, GKarsEye. You reminded me of an interesting possibility. What if it was a telepathic device? A device which collected information from the memories of everyone within reach... and assembled it into imaginary personalities, presenting them to its "audience"?

"Morden" would have been what Lennier knew about Morden. "Zoe" would have been what Lochley knew about Zoe. "Dodger" would have been what Garibaldi knew about Dodger.

Each had the potential to trigger an important realisation... not about the outside world, but about oneself. The people were random. They were not relatives, not friends, not of the same race. Their messages were personal. This would suggest that they were not real personalities, more like assembled impressions. Meant to convey a message from within. For some it may have done good -- if they understood. For some it may have been worthless, for people like Lennier seem the kind who have to realize things on their own.

The only exception is Kosh. Kosh brought information from outside. Lochley knew nothing about Kosh. But can we assume that Kosh had the capability to become an exception? Vorlons have awesome telepathic powers. Perhaps they can leave messages into lifeless objects? Kosh lived on the station, and the station itself may have contained a message from Kosh.

The thoughts and suspicions from Kosh could have *forced* themselves into the loop. The machine would have picked them up, and delivered to the most likely recipient. A cryptic message from the past, influenced by Vorlon senses... which seem to include some awareness of the future?

--------

Now that I think of it... did anyone outside the zone see the "dead people" via electronic means? Did Zoe show up on Lochleys communications session? If not, she may have only existed in her mind. This would bring up the question of what prevented Lennier from:

A. Walking away from his quarters.

B. Asking Morden to get out of his quarters, or kicking him out. Why did Lennier try to leave... when the natural course would have been to kick out Morden?

The answer might be:

A. The machine responsible for the phenomenon added some spatial effects to telepathic ones. This would be backed up by the fact that the zone was isolated from the rest of the station.

B. The illusion was designed to guarantee that this would not happen. The "exception procedure" for handling this could have been Morden saving Lennier. I would find it unlikely for Morden to assist Lennier. Although unlikely things do happen, such as Lennier deciding not to assist Sheridan.

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Few mysteries can survive the SNT, and this one still resists solving. But thanks to GKarEye, I believe to have untangled a bit, at least for myself. Naturally, there could be a hundred other explanations.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 16, 2002).]