Doctor Who: The End of Time (You have been Warned)

[Jade Jaguar]

Thanks. I'll pay more attention, when I rewatch it.

 

[darth_librarian]

Just seen it all. The better half was the latter half, but still far far too much going on. The final scenes were rather fun. I'll pop back with some more thoughts later on.

 

[Chilli]

On first viewing, I was underwhelmed. The blatant Star Wars rip-offs, overlong ending, Martha and Mickey (WTF!?!), it felt overdone.

Honest question .. which parts did you feel were Star Wars rip-offs, aside from the council chamber?

And yeah .. Martha and Mickey .. er .. didn't RTD already marry Martha off with this Tom Milligan guy?

And can someone please explain the logic behind that cabin thingy to me - in particular the part where they vent the radiation into it? In other words, the system is constructed to vent radiation to .. the one place someone is guaranteed to be. :wtf:

.. anyone have any guesses about the msytery woman, btw? Susan?

And isn't Rassilon .. quite, quite dead?

I actually enjoyed it more than the first part, but am still glad RTD's "arc" has come to an end. I'm not sold on Matt Smith either yet, and I'm not actually too thrilled about some of the things I've heard Moffat say about where he wants to take the show ... but I still trust him to make something that doesn't suck. Considering how everything he has ever made for TV is great (not just for DW - Press Gang was quite good, Jekyll was great, and Coupling is the bestest of best things ever made for TV), he had better not make the show suck.

 

[Galahad]

Honest question .. which parts did you feel were Star Wars rip-offs, aside from the council chamber?

Gun Turrets

And yeah .. Martha and Mickey .. er .. didn't RTD already marry Martha off with this Tom Milligan guy?

Weren't they merely engaged? Can't recall.

And can someone please explain the logic behind that cabin thingy to me - in particular the part where they vent the radiation into it? In other words, the system is constructed to vent radiation to .. the one place someone is guaranteed to be. :wtf:

I got the impression that there was a malfunction caused by the Doctor shooting the console which reversed... err the polarity of the neutron flow!:vulcan:

.. anyone have any guesses about the msytery woman, btw? Susan?

Going with either Romana II,III or later or as suggested... The Doctor's mother.

And isn't Rassilon .. quite, quite dead?

Yeah but if the timelords had perfected resurrection technology (not just the Saxon ritual but the original regifting of a body to the Master), then it stands to reason that they'd resurrect their biggest baddest historical figure... particularly if they had gone nuts.

and I'm not actually too thrilled about some of the things I've heard Moffat say about where he wants to take the show ... but I still trust him to make something that doesn't suck.

Can you elaborate on what he has said?

 

[Galahad]

Oh and I totally called it on Wilf! (ahem! scroll back)

 

[Chilli]

Can you elaborate on what he has said?

I can't recall his exact words, but I read an interview at some point in which he indicated that the doctor might be "romantic lead" of a sort. Which, for me, just isn't the doctor, in any incarnation.

 

[Kribu]

Going with either Romana II,III or later or as suggested... The Doctor's mother.

Who, of course, should by all previous TV canon be dead (Two mentioned something like that) and/or a human anyway (according to Eight). Not that it's impossible, but, dunno, some explanation might have been nice.

Yeah but if the timelords had perfected resurrection technology (not just the Saxon ritual but the original regifting of a body to the Master), then it stands to reason that they'd resurrect their biggest baddest historical figure... particularly if they had gone nuts.

In which case, shouldn't there have been, dunno, some explanation? Even the tiniest reference? As it was, throwing the name Rassilon out there meant nothing to New!Who fans and made classic!Who fans go "bzuh?", so... what's the point?

Gah. I enjoyed the first half an hour or so of part two (certainly more than anything of part one), pretty much until the Doctor crashed into the Naismith mansion, but from there on it was either too much wtf or just plain boredom (the whole 20 minutes of goodbyes) - I just kept thinking "Deathly Hallows epilogue all over again" during that; it really came off like RTD was determined to have all his favourite characters seen either paired up on-screen or at least have an "All was well." regarding them.

I'm not the least bit sold on Eleven yet but I'm aware that the fifteen seconds of screentime he got, plus the trailer for S5, isn't enough to judge.

I'm hoping Matt Smith will be good (I've only seen him in Ruby in the Smoke before, and wasn't particularly impressed, but that may well have been because I didn't care for the character); I just don't really care for his looks (but I didn't with Tennant either, and ended up tolerating him), which is my problem and not his.

After End of Time, I'm looking forward to whatever Moffat has in store, anyway. He is an excellent writer, I'm just too worried about him making too much (too much = any) of it about romance and/or sex, and casting the youngest actor ever as the Doctor didn't make that worry of mine go away. It doesn't help that I really disliked The Girl in the Fireplace and certain parts of Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead.

 

[darth_librarian]

My assumption with Rassilon was that he was resurrected and re-elected as they needed a firm war leader, possibly after the previous chancellor (Romana?) was whacked by Daleks. He then started creating a load of monsters with silly names that Tennant rattled off. All of this was hinted at, yanked out of no-where then totally pissed on and ignored in true RTD fashion.

As to the identifty of the woman, its either Romana, the Dr's Mum / Daughter / Wife/ or Donna.

For everything in it I loved (including the over indiulgent 15 minutes) I found stuff I hated (the above, naff star wars laser gun bits ...)

And the radiation chamber thingy was totally pants and a Wrath of Kahn rip off. For one thing, you could see the gaps in the doors ...

The S5 trailer has me excited though. Silly me. I have no real problem with him as a romantic lead now. Number 10 was practically nobbing everything in sight.

 

[Galahad]

I liked both parts of TEoT, but was less happy with the ending of Pt.2. I thought the extended good-byes were unnecessary, and that the Tardis exploding and catching fire during transformation was just wrong.

I'm more in line with Darth on t his one... and I actually choked up twice (Firstly The Doctor's willingness to sacrifice himself for Wilf and Wilf's desperation for him not to have to do it just for him.... and secondly 10's last line).

I especially found 10's silent farewells to Martha, Mickey, Sarah-Jane and Luke moving... the look on his face said it all... and only Sarah-Jane really understood just from reading his face).

The TARDIS exploding and catching fire might seem wrong from a purely in universe perspective... however I think it works. I believe it's bending the fourth wall without breaking it. It's an in universe acknowledgement of Tennant's importance to the revival of Doctor Who as a franchise. Yes it became popular again with Ecclestone... but Tennant magnified and consolidated that popularity and became so well established as the Doctor in the public conscious, that he displaced even Tom Baker as the nation's favourite Doctor.

So Ten's voice cracks up a little (not totally, just enough to appeal to us to fill in the rest of the emotion) and the TARDIS grieves with us.

 

[Sindatur]

I didn't have any problem at all with the long goodbye, I was teared up quite a bit after all the drama leading up to it (All the hints in the prvious spoecials and the ending of Waters of Mars). I actuallly didn't even realize Mickey was Martha's husband, so yea, that was forced, unless she never mentioned the name of her fiance (don't remember if she did or not)

About the exploding TARDIS, I'm wondering if maybe the massive dose of radiation, delayed his regeneration long enough for him to make his silent goodbyes, and that resulted in a violent regeneration this time around.

Makes perfect sense that Rassilon would be the insane Time Lord President, even if not properly explained, but, again, maybe Moff will dive further into it?

Many people theorized that the lady guiding Wilf was the White Guardian, is that still possible or did we get proof positive she was an actual Gallifreyan? I'm hoping it's a mystery they'll stretch out over Matt Smith's opening episodes and build an arc around the White and Black Guardians (or maybe around Susan or Romana, if she was one of them?) and maybe that's why it was left mysterious.

 

[Chilli]

I didn't have any problem at all with the long goodbye, I was teared up quite a bit after all the drama leading up to it (All the hints in the prvious spoecials and the ending of Waters of Mars). I actuallly didn't even realize Mickey was Martha's husband, so yea, that was forced, unless she never mentioned the name of her fiance (don't remember if she did or not)

She did mention his name - Tom Milligan. But others are right - they were engaged, not married.

Oh, another thing that struck me as kind of off: Jack is currently off to find himself/to learn to live with himself after he killed his own grandchild. The Doctor finds him .. and makes sure he scores at a bar. :wtf:

(Well .. it could have been somewhere/sometime else on Jack's timeline. We will see, depending on if Russel Tovey's a regular on Torchwood next year)

 

[Sindatur]

I didn't have any problem at all with the long goodbye, I was teared up quite a bit after all the drama leading up to it (All the hints in the prvious spoecials and the ending of Waters of Mars). I actuallly didn't even realize Mickey was Martha's husband, so yea, that was forced, unless she never mentioned the name of her fiance (don't remember if she did or not)

She did mention his name - Tom Milligan. But others are right - they were engaged, not married.

Oh, another thing that struck me as kind of off: Jack is currently off to find himself/to learn to live with himself after he killed his own grandchild. The Doctor finds him .. and makes sure he scores at a bar. :wtf:

(Well .. it could have been somewhere/sometime else on Jack's timeline. We will see, depending on if Russel Tovey's a regular on Torchwood next year)

It's probably "real-time" for Jack, because Russel Tovey has a similar look to Ianto (IMHO), so it was probably the Doctor arranging a date for Jack to get over his loss of Ianto, but, yea, Jack's lovelife would be way under priority compared with killing his own grandchild (I actually had forgotten about that, personally, thanks for the reminder)

 

[Jade Jaguar]

"The Woman" is played by Claire Bloom, a well-known actress in the 60s and 70s. I didn't realize that, until I saw the credits.

Using gun turrets is 'ripping off Star Wars?" Give me a break!

I noticed that the Doctor fell through a huge, ornate skylight... kinda like a White Star on Z'Ha' Dum... is that a rip off?

It seemed to me, too, that the Doctor called Timothy Dalton "Rassilon." Maybe there will be more on that later.

 

[Chilli]

"The Woman" is played by Claire Bloom, a well-known actress in the 60s and 70s. I didn't realize that, until I saw the credits.

Using gun turrets is 'ripping off Star Wars?" Give me a break!

This is kind of ad hominem .. but considering how open RTD has been in the past about seeking inspiration in other materials, I would be very surprised if the scenes in question were not Star Wars inspired. (Yes, even if it didn't occur to me at first - the turrets, at least. The council chamber was obvious for me too)

When watching the first episodes of Torchwood, I was pretty shocked, really, at how blatantly it was ripping off the Whedonverse - Angel, in particular. What really surprised me, though, was when I ran into an interview with RTD where he flat out said that the idea of Torchwood came to him when he was watching Angel, and decided that he wanted one of those too.

While I think this sucks, I respect that RTD is at least honest about it.

It seemed to me, too, that the Doctor called Timothy Dalton "Rassilon." Maybe there will be more on that later.

I don't think so, really - I don't think we'll see much of New Who revisited in the new season, save material from Moffat's episodes. Moffat has been very adamant about doing his own thing once in charge. Which I for one don't object to - RTD's continuity was getting a bit messy towards the end.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Look, gun turrets existed long before Star Wars, yet no one accuses Lucas of ripping off any of the countless films that used them. Star Wars doesn't OWN gun turrets, so I think it is preposterous to accuse anything that comes after Star Wars of ripping them off. I would even extend that to cover if RTD was inspired to use them, by Star Wars. You just can't rip off something that everyone has been using for decades.

On the IMDb, they are referring to Dalton as Rassilon, so I'm not the only one who thinks he is.

I must admit that Sinead Keenan, as Addams, brought out a passion in me for spiky green female spacelings that I didn't know I had... I wish I could see what she looks like as a human.

 

[darth_librarian]

Thats as maybe, but the whole turret thing was an obvious Star Wars homage / rip-off. The whole setup of the scene, the way the guns looked, the corridor between them. RTD was just putting his spin on it by putting Bernard Cribbins in there.

The Doctor refered to Dalton as Rassilon by name.

 

[Galahad]

Look, gun turrets existed long before Star Wars, yet no one accuses Lucas of ripping off any of the countless films that used them. Star Wars doesn't OWN gun turrets, so I think it is preposterous to accuse anything that comes after Star Wars of ripping them off. I would even extend that to cover if RTD was inspired to use them, by Star Wars. You just can't rip off something that everyone has been using for decades.

I don't personally see it as THAT big a deal. I was simply referring to what I perceived as the reference. However all this part of the discussion has done, is remind me of George Lucas' aggressive policy towards science fiction that succeeded Star Wars. He singlehandedly drove original BSG into the grave on grounds of plagiarism... even though there were clear differences in the story. I think he's become an imperialistic bully and has built an illuminati of once maverick directors who have now become the establishment, around him.

On the IMDb, they are referring to Dalton as Rassilon, so I'm not the only one who thinks he is.

The Doctor explicitly calls Dalton "Rassilon", so I don't think there is any doubt.

 

[Chilli]

To not speculate any further on what RTD might or might not have been thinking when he set up that scene, I asked my sister about what he says about the scene in the Audio Commentary. In RTD's own words: "I wanted to have Wilf as Luke".

He also admits that Jack's bar scene was more than just inspired by Star Wars.

Another fun thing about the commentary: Apparently, RTD and Julie Gardner are speculating on who the mystery woman might be.

 

[darth_librarian]

To not speculate any further on what RTD might or might not have been thinking when he set up that scene, I asked my sister about what he says about the scene in the Audio Commentary. In RTD's own words: "I wanted to have Wilf as Luke".

He also admits that Jack's bar scene was more than just inspired by Star Wars.

Another fun thing about the commentary: Apparently, RTD and Julie Gardner are speculating on who the mystery woman might be.

As you said, least he is honest about it. And fair enough, although I found it all a bit cheesy. The mystery woman thing should keep a large portion of the Internet going for a while, more easy writing !

 

[Sindatur]

"The Woman" is played by Claire Bloom, a well-known actress in the 60s and 70s. I didn't realize that, until I saw the credits.

Using gun turrets is 'ripping off Star Wars?" Give me a break!

This is kind of ad hominem .. but considering how open RTD has been in the past about seeking inspiration in other materials, I would be very surprised if the scenes in question were not Star Wars inspired. (Yes, even if it didn't occur to me at first - the turrets, at least. The council chamber was obvious for me too)

When watching the first episodes of Torchwood, I was pretty shocked, really, at how blatantly it was ripping off the Whedonverse - Angel, in particular. What really surprised me, though, was when I ran into an interview with RTD where he flat out said that the idea of Torchwood came to him when he was watching Angel, and decided that he wanted one of those too.

While I think this sucks, I respect that RTD is at least honest about it.

It seemed to me, too, that the Doctor called Timothy Dalton "Rassilon." Maybe there will be more on that later.

I don't think so, really - I don't think we'll see much of New Who revisited in the new season, save material from Moffat's episodes. Moffat has been very adamant about doing his own thing once in charge. Which I for one don't object to - RTD's continuity was getting a bit messy towards the end.

Certainly Moffat will want to do things his own way and take the show in his own direction, but, we can hope that he and RTD sat down and discussed where Moff wanted to start from. For example, Moff might have said "I want to start with a Black Guardian/White Guardian story arc, can you slip in a mystery person (I think I want to use a woman for the White Guardian this time) for me to pick up the thread with". Or, he might have said he wants be able to play with the Time Lords, so, he might have suggested RTD open that door up for him to expand upon, etc.

Or maybe not....