Dollhouse

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Here's what I'm thinking at this point. Alpha and Echo sort of had a thing with each other, just more further along developed, like Victor and Sierra started to have in this season. But then, I really need to rewatch the episode to get a better sense of everything that happened there at the end of the episode.

Alpha reprogrammed Echo, but obviously not as Caroline. So, perhaps he met Echo at the Dollhouse, or in one of her personas. But, I don't think he knew her as Caroline, unless perhaps Caroline had spurned him, and he wanted to make her into someone who would want him.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Did no one else catch when Ballard more or less said HE was a doll? It was when he saw Victor, who he said he had known his whole life, which struck me as rather strange.

I don't remember Ballard saying he was a doll or him saying that he had known Lubov (Victor's Russian mafia imprint) his whole life. I remember him seeing Victor and freaking out wondering if anything in his life was real, but I didn't interpret that as him calling himself a doll.

 

[Cell]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Cell, every week your whole reaction seems to be in finding what you see as fault in the show. Why bother waiting until a possible second season to stop watching since you don't seem to get any enjoyment out of the show now?

I started the first season and enjoyed the first 7 or so episodes, but then Joss seriously screwed up by moralizing every episode and the show has gone downhill since then. Because I'm this far, I'll at least finish the first season.

The Dollhouse designer persona that Alpha was using expressed fear that the Dollhouse would have him killed, yes, but he also eventually expressed fear (as fake as it might have been given that he was playing Ballard) that Ballard would kill him too when Ballard pulled out his gun in the apartment of weed. Plus, the persona Alpha was playing was someone who's hyper-anxious; if you've never dealt with a person in real life that uncontrollably experiences hyper-anxiety, then it might seem stupid to you, but it made sense to me, even if scripted a bit for comical effect. Hyper-anxious people can be easily intimidated. Plus, Alpha has a lot of really weird shit floating around in his head thanks to the whole composite event that made him what he is; I wouldn't be surprised if the high-anxiety bit wasn't completely faked but part of one of Alpha's past imprints coming out amongst all the crazy floating around in his head.

The problem is that Ballard never once came across as menacing, and later he even told Alpha flat out that if he didn't cooperate he would report his weed to the feds and send him to jail. So, the shroud of Ballard killing him was gone, but he still went along, I never bought that, not for a second.

Ballard's shown himself to be impulsive plenty before now, so it doesn't seem any different to me now that he's become little more than his obsession for getting Caroline out of the Dollhouse. That obsession easily could be making him not thinking everything though as thoroughly as someone else might would.

He hasn't been shown to be stupid though, and last night he was shown to be incredibly stupid, something I didn't buy. If they had followed through with the breaking point theme then I would have bought it, but the writers, and Tamoah, portrayed Ballard as normal the entire episode, not someone at their last wits on this issue.

Cell, have you ever wondered if you're in the wrong line of work? You keep watching things you don't like...

Not really, most of what I watch I like. Dollhouse is the only show I watch that I find to be mediocre and I didn't find it to be that way until recently. Plus, it's by the team behind Firefly, so I will at the very least give it a shot, but so far it's been a big let down.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Huh. Well, it just seems you're often very critical of things that I like a lot, and it bugs me. Part of it is, my "willing suspension of disbelief" is extremely strong until other people start pointing out problems, after which I can't ignore them. So I may be shooting the messenger.

Also, Whedon does nothing but moralizing.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I don't remember Ballard saying he was a doll or him saying that he had known Lubov (Victor's Russian mafia imprint) his whole life. I remember him seeing Victor and freaking out wondering if anything in his life was real, but I didn't interpret that as him calling himself a doll.

I took it as a hint that he was wondering if HE might be a Doll. Otherwise, why wouldn't something in his life be real? But, I don't really think he IS a Doll, just that he is freaking out about this stuff...

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I took it as a hint that he was wondering if HE might be a Doll. Otherwise, why wouldn't something in his life be real? But, I don't really think he IS a Doll, just that he is freaking out about this stuff...

His life is centered around his obsession with the doll house. His girlfriend is a doll, his mafia informant has now been revealed to be a doll. I can totally see why he would start to think, "Damn, is anything in my life real"? With his obsession, and the loss of his job, those really are the only things in his life

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

. If they had followed through with the breaking point theme then I would have bought it, but the writers, and Tamoah, portrayed Ballard as normal the entire episode, not someone at their last wits on this issue.


.

I can't agree with you there. Ballard has quite obviously been growing progressively more obsessed, and more aggitated. True, he doesn't act out on it as overtly as some, i.e. Alpha. Also true, he isn't really at his wit's end, but someone can be quite aggitated, increasingly so, without being at their wit's end. Some stay in that state almost continuously...

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

His life is centered around his obsession with the doll house. His girlfriend is a doll, his mafia informant has now been revealed to be a doll. I can totally see why he would start to think, "Damn, is anything in my life real"? With his obsession, and the loss of his job, those really are the only things in his life

I don't really disagree with that, I was just thinking they were hinting at the possibility of something deeper, probably as a red herring.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I don't really disagree with that, I was just thinking they were hinting at the possibility of something deeper, probably as a red herring.

Heh, to be honest, prior to this episode, I did wonder if Ballard may actually be Alpha and not kow it, what with the way everyone is dolls.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I took it as a hint that he was wondering if HE might be a Doll. Otherwise, why wouldn't something in his life be real? But, I don't really think he IS a Doll, just that he is freaking out about this stuff...

I saw that bit as him just being hyperbolic or perhaps nihilistic but not that he was actually considering his being a doll to be an actual possibility.

 

[Cell]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Huh. Well, it just seems you're often very critical of things that I like a lot, and it bugs me. Part of it is, my "willing suspension of disbelief" is extremely strong until other people start pointing out problems, after which I can't ignore them. So I may be shooting the messenger.

Also, Whedon does nothing but moralizing.

Not always, and usually when he does he's actually spot on with it, ie; not shoving morals onto people who don't have any.

I do get you about the not wanting to hear about problems bit.

I can't agree with you there. Ballard has quite obviously been growing progressively more obsessed, and more aggitated. True, he doesn't act out on it as overtly as some, i.e. Alpha. Also true, he isn't really at his wit's end, but someone can be quite aggitated, increasingly so, without being at their wit's end. Some stay in that state almost continuously...

It felt to me like they just dropped in this episode after brilliantly bringing along that aspect of Ballard in the past few eps.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yeah, that was good. Must have more!!

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yeah, that was good. Must have more!!

Ditto.

 

[Recoil]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I dont think getting more is likely. Ratings have been constantly slipping.

That said, I was gone for a couple of weeks and just caught up and watched the finale, and I liked it. I thought Alan Tudyk was AWESOME. They also used him brilliantly. They introduced him as very Wash-like character. Silly, funny, a bit neurotic, which was very familiar to Whedon fans who loved Wash. But when he slashed up Victor and you find out he was Alpha...he really REALLY pulled off the intimindating psycho part well. It was something completely new Ive seen from him and he did it great. Frankly, he did a much better job at handling different personalitites than Eliza has done in the show so far.

When Dominic (in Victor's Body) called out Whisky, I pretty much knew that Dr Saunders was really a doll. First, he was sort of looking in her direction. Second, Alpha made that comment "How long have you wanted to be a doctor" and thats how it played out in the finale.

The finale was also well done, and you cant help but think of how dreadful this technology is and they showed it off well. Basically saying anyones personality and anyones body are interchangable is a scary concept. Alpha's comment about "they are all pretty much the same." The only saving grace is that Alpha's original character has clearly carried into his Doll persona and is more powerful than the technology --- the human soul concept.

If this show were to continue I think it would be telling the story of a very different type of apocolypse. Not like each season of Buffy where there is some clear bad guy going to destroy the world. This would be a very different kind, with humanity getting destroyed or changed by completely different means.

Too bad I dont think its getting renewed though. I didnt enjoy the first few episodes of the show but it really has gotten better and better...

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

JW seems to think there's a good chance of renewal, and they're getting a revenue stream off Hulu, so, they may be generating enough revenue combined to continue with a second season.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yeah, I enjoyed the finale. Ballard is going to work for Dollhouse? Are they going to make him a doll? Is that the price he paid to give November back her identity? And, why did he bali out November, and not Caroline?

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yeah, I enjoyed the finale. Ballard is going to work for Dollhouse? Are they going to make him a doll? Is that the price he paid to give November back her identity? And, why did he bali out November, and not Caroline?

Adelle says:

ADELLE
We'll find him. I have confidence now. Our new contractor has skills which inspire it.

To me, that says that he's not going to be a doll since it's his own skills that she thinks will enable them to find and stop Alpha.

Perhaps he picked Madeline to free from her contract as penance for his having used her. With him working for the Dollhouse to hunt down Alpha, he's on the inside, and still has opportunities to free Caroline.

The script for the episode reveals that there was a bit cut from the episode. Sierra and November were written to be there at the end alongside Echo, Ballard, and Boyd fighting against Alpha. That's what we saw them being programmed for in the episode, but their part of the final battle was cut out. It's kind of a shame too because there's one little bit of that cut part that I think is hilarious:

Paul looks across to Boyd. Boyd shakes his head -- do not get in their way. Paul ignores it. Here comes November, slamming a fresh clip into her weapon. Paul steps in front of her. She doesn't even slow.

Boyd starts heading over to pull him out of the way.

BOYD
Ballard! Just back away!

PAUL
It's ok. I've seen how you do this!

And November is nearly on top of him when --

PAUL (CONT'D) (with purpose)
You need therapy.

WHACK! She bashes him with the butt of her weapon without breaking a stride. He goes down. Boyd crouches at Paul's side.

BOYD
Treatment. You need treatment.

PAUL (dazed, head ringing)
No, no. I'll be fine.

He passes out.

And speaking of fun little moments, one of my favorites was this exchange:

ALPHA
Lay back in the chair!

ECHO
You lay back in the chair! I'm done laying back in the chair. I am ready to rinse and spit!

I love that little quick quip, which reflected back to a comment earlier in the episode about Alpha's imprint chair looking like a dentist chair. I can get so much joy out of little moments like that.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

To me, that says that he's not going to be a doll since it's his own skills that she thinks will enable them to find and stop Alpha.

Perhaps he picked Madeline to free from her contract as penance for his having used her. With him working for the Dollhouse to hunt down Alpha, he's on the inside, and still has opportunities to free Caroline.

I think you are almost certainly right, but I think they were deliberately a bit ambiguous.

And yes, I think that is a good explanation for why he picked Madeline.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I just read over on Whedonesque that Dollhouse has been renewed for another 13 episode season.

 

[Recoil]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I just saw that too. Unbelievable!