Dollhouse

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

This aspect has bothered me, too. It seems that much of the use of "Dollhouse" is as a high-tech brothel, and no one seems very concerned about that.

On the contrary, a lot of fans have raised that point. And the show has raised the point repeatedly. One of the most interesting aspects of the show, for me anyway, has been how the people there justify what they're doing... and what happens to them as those justifications begin to snap under the strain.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

This aspect has bothered me, too. It seems that much of the use of "Dollhouse" is as a high-tech brothel, and no one seems very concerned about that.

On the contrary, a lot of fans have raised that point. And the show has raised the point repeatedly. One of the most interesting aspects of the show, for me anyway, has been how the people there justify what they're doing... and what happens to them as those justifications begin to snap under the strain.

Repeatedly? As in more than once, I guess so. But, IMO, they have pretty much glossed over it, in the context of the show, not mounted any real philosophical defense. But, I agree with you on the rest.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Repeatedly? As in more than once, I guess so. But, IMO, they have pretty much glossed over it, in the context of the show, not mounted any real philosophical defense. But, I agree with you on the rest.

You do realize that most of the characters are supposed to be villains, right? I don't think they're trying to mount a defense. I think they're trying to show how indefensible it is.

As for the glossing over it... yeah. Early in season 1, definitely. Later on, we have one character describing the Dollhouse thusly: "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." In the most recently aired ep. we have the supervisor telling the geek, "Everyone who works here does so because they have had their morals compromised, except you: you work here because you have no morals at all," and the Dollhouse's owners setting aside the masks and outright stating they don't view the dolls as people. The curtain is being drawn back.

Since it's my theory that the whole show is one giant critique of capitalism, I think some of this tracks to the horrible, horrible things we all do here in Western Civ. ... and justify in our own minds in various ways. In other words, it's not a bug, it's a feature. Like Kosh's hand.

Or I could be massively fan-wanking. We'll see when the show's done.

 

[Recoil]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Many women who tried the show out have a major problem with the "Female abuse" that the show centers around.

This aspect has bothered me, too. It seems that much of the use of "Dollhouse" is as a high-tech brothel, and no one seems very concerned about that.

Which is odd for a Joss show. I'm sure he meant things to come across differently as he is usually very slanted towards empowerment of his female characters....but the message never came across in this series, and yea, it does basically seem like a high-tech brothel.

Bizarre, but there you have it.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Many women who tried the show out have a major problem with the "Female abuse" that the show centers around.

This aspect has bothered me, too. It seems that much of the use of "Dollhouse" is as a high-tech brothel, and no one seems very concerned about that.

Which is odd for a Joss show. I'm sure he meant things to come across differently as he is usually very slanted towards empowerment of his female characters....but the message never came across in this series, and yea, it does basically seem like a high-tech brothel.

Bizarre, but there you have it.

Yea, and then you also have Eliza Dushku as an exec Producer, and she strikes me as a strong woman, that wouldn't be involved at that level (as well acting the part) if there wasn't some intention of redemption for the female characters

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

You do realize that most of the characters are supposed to be villains, right? I don't think they're trying to mount a defense. I think they're trying to show how indefensible it is.

As for the glossing over it... yeah. Early in season 1, definitely. Later on, we have one character describing the Dollhouse thusly: "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." In the most recently aired ep. we have the supervisor telling the geek, "Everyone who works here does so because they have had their morals compromised, except you: you work here because you have no morals at all," and the Dollhouse's owners setting aside the masks and outright stating they don't view the dolls as people. The curtain is being drawn back.

Since it's my theory that the whole show is one giant critique of capitalism, I think some of this tracks to the horrible, horrible things we all do here in Western Civ. ... and justify in our own minds in various ways. In other words, it's not a bug, it's a feature. Like Kosh's hand.

Or I could be massively fan-wanking. We'll see when the show's done.

Well, I don't think we disagree as much as you think we do. You are right as to why they don't mount a defense. When I say "gloss it over, in the context of the show," I could be more direct and say that most of the principals don't make a big deal of it. As for most being villains, well yes, but they are at least a bit subtle about portraying it, and try to play most characters sympathetically. I'm not saying it should be done otherwise, but that is part of what I meant by glossing over. The occasional statement about morals actually makes them seem more human, and less monstrous, since they can admit their flaws.

The critique of capitalism angle hadn't occurred to me, but may well be right. After all, we're all just capitalist whores, forced by the system to play a part...

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

The critique of capitalism angle hadn't occurred to me, but may well be right. After all, we're all just capitalist whores, forced by the system to play a part...

Yeah. Watch the "street interviews" in "Man on the Street" again -- especially the last two. Then watch "Epitaph One." It's a critique of capitalism, all right. After all, Joss once had Buffy liberate enslaved workers (making weapons, no less) with a hammer and sickle.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I thought the recent back-to-back eps were great! Here is an article/interview with Joss, long, lots of interesting info...

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/12/dollhouse-fox-joss-whedon.html#more

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I thought the last two were great exciting fun, especially with Summer Glau on board. But if anything, the two before (before the November-long hiatus) it were more fun to unpack. These were just a ride, not quite so thought-provoking.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I enjoyed the balance they are bringing now. With the DC Dollhouse, the misogyny is going on the other foot. Dollhouse run by women, and the dolls are men, even a Senator.

There was a comment about Sierra leaving 2 years ago, I believe. Did we skip ahead 2 years during the hiatus to advance the plot due to the cancellation (not complaining, just trying to keep up)

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I have to say, this show is really flying now. It's almost rushed, but not bad, and definitely they aren't pulling any punches or wasting any time... three episodes left.

 

[snockit]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Agreed, these last episodes are going great. It is almost to bad the show is going since it is strong now, at the same time, who knows how long it would have taken Joss to get to this level; and at least we are getting a completed story without a surprise cancellation. (they at least gave him the road to finish the story up)

With the time lines in the show, yes, they have been jumping forward often, ie. last weeks they skipped over 3 months ... pulling the story forward and skipping all those filler episodes I guess ...

Still, great watching now, be interesting to see how it ends.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

On the AVS Forum Dollhouse thread, I predicted that Adele's giving Topher's plans to Rossum was to get her back in their good graces, so she could thwart Russum's plans, and now we see that is true in the previews. Yeah, I think the recent string of EPs have been great. I'm looking forward to seeing the final three.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I've really been enjoying these last 6 episodes of DollHouse, it's a shame they alienated so many people early on with the mysogyny, I think the series as it winds down is doing a pretty good job of redeeming itself.

Nice prediction there JJ, that betrayal of Topher really pissed me off at Adele and these last two episodes didn't do anything but make me angrier at her, until the final act, when the truth comes out.

I would have liked to have seen things go a little slower, like maybe twice as many episodes this season to get to the finish line. IF they continue going two episodes a week, with the other 3 episodes, that means 1 week is 2 episodes and 1 week is 1 episode. Any chance they may air Epitaph One before the final episode (Titled Epitaph Two) to make it two weeks of two episodes and to allow those of us who haven't gotten the DVD set to see Epitaph One?

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I think the three EPs in January are just one hour each, and I don't think they have any plans to air Epitaph 1.

I'm going to make another prediction. I think Boyd is a plant, out to bring down Rossum. He may be working for the same people who had gotten Ballard assigned to investigate the Dollhouse, or someone(s) else, possibly part of the US Gov. And yes, I realize that he is openly working with Adele now, to bring down Rossum, but I believe there is more to it than that...

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I've been informed that we get at least a little backstory for everyone. Certainly it would seem we're going to get Caroline's story; that leaves Adelle and Boyd.

(Heck, on a totally different show, word is that Shepherd Book's backstory is finally going to be revealed.)

 

[vacantlook]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Well, tonight's episode was certainly a WTF. Whew!

 

[Recoil]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yea, it was a WTF all right. What remains to be seen was it a "WTF that was brilliant and I can see how that all makes sense from what has been done in the past." Or is it a "WTF? Final Five Cylons? Did you all just put a name in a hat?"

The finale will tell.

And yes, things were very accelerated this season. I think when they got greenlit for a second season, they knew that the 15 episodes were going to be it, so they told as much as they could and tried to fit their entire concept into the 15 episodes....and I think they are doing a good job of it.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I've been pretty sure Boyd was a plant of some kind, for a long time... but to find out he IS Rossum was a big surprise to me! Another powerful EP. One to go, postponed a week due to a Haiti telethon.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

I dunno, I would have written this last one differently. On the other hand, it ended very well, and as I expected.