earth ships

Arrghman · Feb 4, 2002

the omega is one of my favorite designs from b5... its so brutally strong, function over form, so ugly its attractive... and no, im not kidding either

oooo, look at them go...

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superbob · Feb 5, 2002

Valid points Dark Archon (hope I got it right), some of them I have to disagree with you. The Narns were never given the chance to take the Centauri on. They always fought a battle of attrition. (as far as I know thats how they kicked the centauri off their planet?) The point is although they were held in slavery for over a century, they took all their resources and boosted their developement. I believe that thew Centauri ships are better but marginally. Their design is more for show than capability. The Narns would have one.
Being the patriot that i am I must admit to liking the Omega class ships from earth. Bulky, ponderous yet somehow quite imposing. Bring out the bricks on engines. A close would be the Narn destroyers.

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 5, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Archon:
The Narn are the weakest of the original five main races. A hundred years of slavery tends to handicap a society. Until recently, their obsession for revenge was going to be their ultimate doom. The interesting thing to note is that while the Centauri are more powerful than the Humans and the Narns, they are the only one of the three races that are stagnant or declining.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, not quite.

"They are a dying race"
"Who, the Centauri or the Narn?"
"Yes"

Though of course one might assume that with the help of Kosh ("Dust to Dust"), G'Kar reinvigorated his people. But from what was said not the least by JMS, it looks more likely that they will forever remain in the shadow of the Minbari and humans.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 5, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Superbob said
The Narns were never given the chance to take the Centauri on. They always fought a battle of attrition. (as far as I know thats how they kicked the centauri off their planet?) The point is although they were held in slavery for over a century, they took all their resources and boosted their developement. I believe that thew Centauri ships are better but marginally. Their design is more for show than capability. The Narns would have one.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True the Narns did finally drive the Centauri away, but as you said it was a War of attrition. I think G'kar said it best, not sure which episode. The Narns made it not worth the time and effort of the Centauri to stay and occupy. They didn't drive them away through conventional methods of war. More like through guerilla warfare and acts of terrorism.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Irmo said
No, not quite.

"They are a dying race"
"Who, the Centauri or the Narn?"
"Yes"

Though of course one might assume that with the help of Kosh ("Dust to Dust"), G'Kar reinvigorated his people. But from what was said not the least by JMS, it looks more likely that they will forever remain in the shadow of the Minbari and humans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very valid point. Although I don't know exactly if Kosh said that meaning there is nothing the Narn could do to change their fate. Or if he was commenting on the Narns current state of affars. I believe the Centauri are doomed because they have passed their climax and are an old race. The Narns are still young enough to change things around for themselves, at least in my opinion.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

bakana · Feb 6, 2002

JMS said that the Narn & Centauri never quite make it to Energy Being.
They have themselves trapped in an evolutionary dead end.

Humans make it and eventually the Minbari, but the Narn & Centauri just stagnate.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

superbob · Feb 6, 2002

I suspected as much. Not to sound like a pessimist but I would have thought that humans don't make it, too much holding us back. Although I have to admit, humanity goes through a rebirth of some sort evey so often, industrial revolution, the renaissance (spelling?).
I really did like the Narns though. Oh well like the saying goes
"If you hold on too tight you're gonna lose the edge" - Topgun

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 6, 2002

i bet the other first ones had the same problems younger races have, but being a few million (billion?) years older, they've had more time to work it out. divisions and civil wars and all that probably happened to the vorlons before they all started believing in nothing but order and reason.

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**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 7, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>JMS said that the Narn & Centauri never quite make it to Energy Being.
They have themselves trapped in an evolutionary dead end.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Shadows would remind that as long as you are alive, evolution has no dead ends. If they are not dead, they are alive -- and becoming First Ones is only a matter of time.

No end is a dead end: you can go where you want either directly or curving. If you don't get wiped out, you will eventually get where you wanted... and can continue, set a new target, choose again and make new mistakes.

In the end, we never know if any of them made it. Cause after billions of years the preceivable universe would have ended (either in darkness or fire, of which Kosh suspected the second).

Nobody knows if they managed to bail out and continue in some form. I guess some did, as natural processes seem to repeat themselves both on small and large scale -- even of everything lost, something remains.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 07, 2002).]

Quagmire · Feb 7, 2002

We do know whether the Narn, Centauri, Minbari, and Humans became first ones(no, no, yes, yes).

How...because JMS said so.

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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny

Galahad · Feb 7, 2002

I'd like to think the Narn or the Centauri... particularly the Narn, eventually do make it, perhaps when the Humans and Minbari have to move on.

Otherwise there is the danger of the Drazi becoming caretakers of the galaxy. Instead of the Shadow War you get the Colour War.

If you are green you will evolve into better beings.

But purple is quicker and less stagnant.

A dying alien emperor on a mission of peace on a station in neutral territory gazes into the encounter suit of a knowing Drazi.... "How will this end?"

"In a pot of purple dye"

I think when we quit the Milky Way, we should go and do over the Shadows just for a laugh, and for old times sake... but of course the whole point is we'll be past that then.

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"

Teekas Dragon · Feb 8, 2002

I think that the narn would eventually be close to obtaining "first one" status (despite the fact that JMS said otherwise so this is just me thinking here and nothing of worth). The narns and the centauri both had something major holding them back from this goal. The Centauri had their want to re-obtain their greatness.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td> Which i would hope would be stopped when Vir became emporer, just because his view were so much different from that of the "average" Centauri. </td></tr></table>

The narn had their hate that they had to let go of before they could start to rebuild and move on. Which with G'kar being such a spritual figure and having so many ppl who believe in him (thanks to a certain Vorlon we all know and love). So i think that if either of them would have had a chance to become something better and bigger than what they were it would be the narn since they were closer to releasing their hate then the Centauri of releasing their dreams of the past.

Here's a site you can visit for some pretty cool pics of the ships, i don't know how much of this would be considered canon but it's still an interesting site to look at.

B5 Tech-Manual

Enjoy
Jerome

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I am a Ranger. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. We live for the One. We die for the one.

En'til'zha · Feb 8, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I think that Earthforce design may have been run Americans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

America and Earthforce are both reletively young compared to other nations/races. For that reason less emphasis is given to aesthetics and more placed on practicality. the other races in B5 have had much more time to perfect their spacecraft, whereas Earthforce is more interested in producing large numbers of capable ships. The same can be said for American city design.

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"Watch the Shadows, they move when you're not looking..."

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 8, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Teekas Dragon:

The narn had their hate that they had to let go of before they could start to rebuild and move on. Which with G'kar being such a spritual figure and having so many ppl who believe in him (thanks to a certain Vorlon we all know and love). So i think that if either of them would have had a chance to become something better and bigger than what they were it would be the narn since they were closer to releasing their hate then the Centauri of releasing their dreams of the past.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The question is to which degree they do that. Even G'Kar had to struggle with adherents who pointed out his writings during the time he himself was consumed by hatred. It is hard to convey to an admirer that the great, infallible G'Kar changed his mind...

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

bakana · Feb 9, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The question is to which degree they do that. Even G'Kar had to struggle with adherents who pointed out his writings during the time he himself was consumed by hatred. It is hard to convey to an admirer that the great, infallible G'Kar changed his mind...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a direct analagy to our own religious whackos who read only the parts that can be twisted into a message that reinforces their own hate.

They read those passages over and over and pretend that the Rest of the message doesn't exist.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

superbob · Feb 9, 2002

True, G'kar isn't the saint he wants to be. He , however, did take a pivotal step in the right direction. Realising his own shortcomings and made the attempt to better himself. Maybe he beat it maybe he didn't. The point is he tried, personally I think thats a step in the great one direction!
C'mon everybody I feel a group hug coming on here!

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"

Várzea · Feb 18, 2002

Let's not forget that the centauri conquered the entire Beta system in nine days!!

But i think they became first ones, after humans and minbari, and stayed to help the younger races evolve but they started a fight over which way was right to do that, the centauri believed it was conflict, and the narn, order, and then...well you'll know what i mean...

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If you drink wine, you should be able to enjoy the hangover or learn from it, if you can't do that, dont drink wine.

admiraldave · Feb 18, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Arrghman:
the omega is one of my favorite designs from b5... its so brutally strong, function over form, so ugly its attractive... and no, im not kidding either

oooo, look at them go...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, that ship above and right of the Agamemnon, is that a Warlock?

IIRC, the Warlock class was supposed to incorporate Shadow technology, but there have been snags in that part of the development. That and the lack of an artificial gravity system.

Admiral Dave

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Hey (hey) hey somewhere
You threw your fear in the sea of no cares ...

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 18, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Um, that ship above and right of the Agamemnon, is that a Warlock?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope, it is a ship made by a fan CGI-modeler. He called it a "Tempest" cruiser IIRC - it's supposed to be to the Hyperion what the Warlock is to the Omega & Nova...

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"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 18, 2002

Hello friends, i'm new to this place and find it all quite intersting, as it is hard for me to find people to talk B5 on, lots of time it is to far above their heads for them to fully understand. Anyway down to the topic here.
First lets address the ships. They'res acutally very few ships in B5 that i do not like, actually I cant think of any at this time. But the Earth Omega's are one of my favorite. Rather they can beat a Centouri Primus Cruiser, that can be debatable, They are actually very evenly matched. The Primus has longer range and faster firing rate then the earth counterpart along with better anti-fighter capablitiles. Though the primus lacks the rear protection and does not have as much fighters as the omega does. The narn ships look kool, but the narn make their ships to look allmost organic so races that are not so familier with them will think them stronger then they are. techology speaking the G'Quon is the same tech as the Nova dreadnought and does not have atrificial gravity.
Now to who is tougher then who. The Minbari are for sure the toughest of the younger races though that is not in dispute it seems. The Centouri are next on the list, having now equal terrioty to the Earth Alliance, but once had one quarter of the galaxy. They maintain 400 years older then the other races. They also maintain their techology advantage easily. The problem the Centauir experience is that they entered a declines, one reason is because of Centouri rejecting how quickly they were advancing, and now they want the opposite. The Narn are the weakest of the races only entering space around the year 2210. They also have to rebuild they're world after the Centouri, but you have to hand it the the Narn, they were able to make themselves a major power within 50 years where it took Earth around 70 to 80 years. But at present the Centouri are no longer in the Alliance remember. They also have new designs rabidly going off the assebly line, that shows that their 400 year advantange is showing.

And no one can perdict the future, and though JMS is one of my all time favorites not even he knows who will make to first one status, (which by the way is how old you are), how long did it take him to write 5 years worth of this univeres? and it'd take a very long time to write a few million years worth if you know what I mean.

I may have forgot to address somethings but this is what i remember off the bat, any question, or misunderstanding, please go ahead and address them!!

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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

bakana · Feb 19, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Let's not forget that the centauri conquered the entire Beta system in nine days!!
But i think they became first ones, after humans and minbari, and stayed to help the younger races evolve but they started a fight over which way was right to do that, the centauri believed it was conflict, and the narn, order, and then...well you'll know what i mean... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but JMS specifically said that the Centauri and the Narn never make it.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

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