Enterprise: "Azati Prime"

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

You're in a crowd of few on the Berman thing. Main stream magazines have called for his ouster

To hell with mainstream magazines... that's just their opinions and politics rules.

and I can trace the beginning of ST's decline to his taking over the reigns. Do some research on the man and you'll find he's, at the least, supported writers and producers (Braga) who have repeatedly insulted the fans. Berman himself has said that the fans are "stupid."

I don't see how Trek can decline since he took over the reigns when he's held the reigns for pretty much all of Trek ever. If you count the original series a success, then everything since as bad/a failure just because Berman ran it you'd be a) wrong; and well that's it, just point a. TNG was a massive critical and financial success. DS9 was also a success, but of course not to TNG standards in ratings, but already TV was changing.

As to Berman reportedly calling fans stupid, please provide a link.

If you gave up on Stargate...your choice...too bad, you've missed some great moments and great character interplay. Stargate has that great ensemble casting and characters as a team and family that has been sorely missing from ST.

I see a load of Jaffar running around in some woods, then it's the end. Repeat for every episode. I did like it, but it just got so tired. Then they let Shanks back with total disregard for fans, and got rid of Nemec. This is the fan response you want Trek to take?

DS9 and Voyager (not so much Enterprise) had fantastic casts that really worked well together. DS9 in particular... just amazing.

If you love Trek, I simply can't see why you're hanging on as Berman and Co. systematically ignore and destroy the universe's history, which was rich and full of ideas if someone were imaginative enough to actually see them.

What exactly have they destroyed? Continuity is a bitch because let's face it they have around 600 episodes of Trek. Would you like writing to those restrictions? Where it counts they get it right... not that some head makeup has changed on Species 182... that's just fanboy crap. Other times they skirt it (no need for the Ferengi in Enterprise). But I don't think there's amy major issues.

Insurrection was what I call, dead erection...it never got up and I fell asleep.

You were just saying Trek didn't have great moments and great character interplay, yet you fell asleep in the film that offered it in bucketloads. Insurrection hit all the spots. Good moral story, great characters, good script... Michael Piller is great. But then, he is in Berman-Trek, i.e. anything after 1987, so you wouldn't like him.

Oh, and I can also tell you that Bryan Singer has been approached by Paramount to direct the next ST film

Singer wouldn't be able to do it for a long time yet.. he's very busy. I also can't see him coming down to do Trek.

No, face it, Bermans' days are numbered. One thing I can also say from my source is that Berman reportedly approached Lucasfilm in hopes of working there, but was flatly turned away.

He's in a multi-year deal with Paramount, so unlikely.

No one is too fond of him, that much is clear. He has driven one of the largest worldwide fan bases in history away and left one of the biggest money making creations in history on the brink of extinction. Not a good thing to have on your resume.

He also created one of the biggest monkey making creations in history, and took it to new heights. That does look good on your resume.

I just love that Berman can be credited with all the bad things in Trek, yet none of the good things.

 

[Mike G]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

What Antony said.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

"He also created one of the biggest monkey making creations in history, and took it to new heights. That does look good on your resume."

Sorry, but I find that a fascinating Freudian slip there.

I have no idea to blame, all I can say is I thought TNG was better than the original series, and DS9, though ripped off from B5's premise, was also quite well done.

But everyone knows the show went into a nose-dive after that. I agree with the fans who say: give it a rest. Do no Trek at all for at least 3 years.

I understand the writing has gotten much better on Enterprise lately. I really must watch it again, but there's the rub: I already lost interest. I am finding it difficult to sit through an episode since the one I chose to sit all the way through last time was the 'everyone human is asleep' episode. NOT a good episode to try to get back into Enterprise with, I gather.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

DS9 was good because of Ira Behr, Ronald Moore, and the other writers, who insisted on having their way over Berman.

Berman is probably a good businessman, but should leave the creativity to others.

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Sorry, but I find that a fascinating Freudian slip there.

Ooops.

GKE, I totally agree. Ira and co. were the masterminds behind DS9. Braga is not as good a writer, and when he runs things I don't think Trek is good. That's probably why Berman tried to get Ira on to Enterprise for season three (I don't think that's public knowledge.. hate to say it, but I know it from someone-in-the-know).

I think Berman does care, and he does get involved... but he's the CEO. CEOs make some decisions, but that's it. That's why I think Berman being blamed for the fall of Trek is utter nonsense.

I agree with Hyp and many people that Trek should have had a rest. But Paramount wanted more... again, not Berman's fault. They'd have done it with or without him.

 

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

DS9 was good because of Ira Behr, Ronald Moore, and the other writers, who insisted on having their way over Berman.

Berman is probably a good businessman, but should leave the creativity to others.

Dead on. Thanks. And I will try to find the magazine article where Braga, my bad, not Berman called the fans stupid...Berman merely insinuated that he could do whatever he wanted to a beloved universe and the fans would follow blindly because they were gullible (insinuated not stated outright). Guess that is sadly true in some cases, but not in the majority.

I remember this article clearly because there was a fan outcry for Braga's termination...it was around the time GENERATIONS was coming out I believe and VOYAGER was making its launch.

As for Berman being under contract...don't mean squat if they cancel the show. His contract is null and void and he's gone. Period. As to Singer being approached...he's a huge Trek fan and is unhappy himself with what's been happening to ST in the last ten years. Remember, Stewart and Spiner are both friends with Singer as well.

You do know that PS and BS basically usurped Berman on Nemesis right? They kinda went over his head to Paramount directly on many issues, partly to decrease his control over the film.

Berman was NOT in complete control of Trek until Gene died. Though Gene was relegated to consultant at that point, much of his influence was still strongly felt on TNG. When I referred to "the beginning of the end" for Trek was post GR's death. That would include the last two seasons of TNG (which is when all the techno-babble and psycho-babble started to get really bad and the idea of technology solving most of the problems became more and more a tool in ST -- this was the diametrically opposite idealogy that GR brought to ST, for him it always man over machine.)

Was DS9 a good show? Yes, for the most part, but you hit on one thing...its ratings weren't nearly what TNG's were and, though starting in a good position, slid steadily during the entire run of the show. Voyager, again, strong start but the ratings slid badly, worse than DS9's, throughout -- thought they did have a slight resurgence towards the end. ENTERPRISE started at around where VOYAGER was and has badly lost ratings ever since.

Most ST characters today are interchangeable and uninteresting people. To me DS9 was a good show, but was mostly a soap-opera in space (and I mean soap-opera in a bad way) and was a rip-off of B5, which I found did the job a zillion times better and made Trek out to be the creativeless, unimaginative thing it was becoming more and more. Repeatedly ST has stolen from B5 and others, even itself. There are people still clinging to ST, but I'm sorry to have to tell you, most of the true fans left long ago...sad to watch a dear friend die. I've given each incarnation a chance, but for the most part I just don't care to watch mediocre SF when I have better things to do. Especially when I can see so much potential still there.

And as for violation of cannon..the Okuda's went through a great deal of effort to reconcile the history and create a cronology. To me, it would be an invaluable tool to help keep with established fact and if you must depart, make it something I can buy and do it in a way that I can see it and say..oh that makes sense. No, I've come back to ST again and again...and each time I just end up angry and upset.

Someone wanted examples of timeline distortion by Berman and Co....so here's a big one..during the time that ENTERPRISE is set, we should be in the middle of the Earth/Romulan war and the Romulans shouldn't have but a fraction of the technology they have. Also, the idea that Vulcans don't practice Mind Melds and haven't for centuries is ludicrous...there is backstory supporting the fact that for one thing, Sarek should be alive in this time, and he's been doing mind melds all his life. Oh, and then there's this horrid attack on Earth that no other time frame has ever mentioned. And we use phasers, though THE CAGE clearly dictates that phasers didn't yet exist. Then there's the tricorder thing....gee they're awfully advanced compared to what Kirk had. If you're going to set something in the history of the Trek Universe, then do it right..don't make it TNG times with different sets and some new uniforms...

Trek needs a break yes...but there are still great stories to tell out there that will fit into the ST universe very well. As for following cannon with 600 eps? Shatner not only does it in his novels but uses them to fix the f*@k-ups Berman repeatedly creates...and he does it in a way that usually has me saying something like..."That was cool. What an ingenious way to to explain that screw up...I love you Shatner."

Don't think for one minute that I don't love Trek...I do...I love it too much to watch it continually get dragged through the mud and slim of mediocrity and bad and visionless writing. T'Pol acts about as Vulcan as an emotionally challenged ADHD child on ritalin. Come on...either make it Trek or create your own damn show.

As for how would I feel having to write stuff in that universe and be bound by its history and rules...I say...any day...bring it on. Watch the commentary on ST6 sometime...Nicholas Meyer (who I would LOVE to take over Trek) has a great way of wording just how you do exactly that...make Trek something exciting, character oriented and fulfilling while making it true to its own history. It is the unimaginative that claim it can't be done...thus even more of a reason why I claim Berman as such.

To think that Trek can't be cancelled...you're living in a dream...it's ratings are tanking and Paramount, thank God, has finally taken notice of just how much (millions, literally) of the fan base has vanished -- possibly never to return.

Sorry, ain't buyin' the party line...I tried again and again to do so...but it was always the same ole schtick.

CE

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

You do know that PS and BS basically usurped Berman on Nemesis right? They kinda went over his head to Paramount directly on many issues, partly to decrease his control over the film.

And to get more money.

Ant, I think you can place a lot of the blame on Berman. As my CEO told me the other day, a CEO gets some of the praise and all of the blame. He didn't have allow Braga as much control as he did. They didn't have to approach Trek with the cynicism that Trek fandom is a bunch of geeks, that continuity is unimportant, and that you can change the very nature and purpose of a series season by season. In fact, it is this aspect of Enterprise that makes me dislike and dismiss it: it was hailed as a return to the classic Trek idea of awe and exploration and has devolved into a non-continuity-related mess of a cheesy Andromeda-type drama. When I first saw the opening credits (and got over the awful song), the images of exploration really got to me and I was so hopeful that they were going to tap that spirit. Seeing it today is like a joke.

 

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Thank you GKarsEye...well said. Hey, to quote ST6, "The Captain is responsible for conduct of the crew under his command."

This crew's conduct has been abysmal. Not to mention one reason to despise Berman and Braga if none other is that they hate the original cast and have no respect for their portion of the Trek universe or what they did to create this universe...I mean come on, if it weren't for them we wouldn't have Trek...and he has no respect for the years and effort they've put into it, especially Nimoy...who's wonderful cultural contributions to the Vulcans are all but non-existant anymore. Of course Berman probably doesn't like him because he walked out of Berman's office and told him no thanks on GENERATIONS because Berman was demanding that Nimoy do things his way or the highway...so Nimoy basically told him to shove it. God I love Leonard!

Nope, Berman and his croonies have got to go..it's Trek's only hope.

CE

 

[vacantlook]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

In fact, it is this aspect of Enterprise that makes me dislike and dismiss it: it was hailed as a return to the classic Trek idea of awe and exploration and has devolved into a non-continuity-related mess of a cheesy Andromeda-type drama.

It's interesting, before I got to your post, GKarsEye, I was reading through the long one by colonyearth before it and started wondering if Berman and/or Braga would be more happy over on Andromeda where the past two years TPTB at that show have totally obliterated the depth the characters started out with and have taken the plots from a Captain from a lost age trying to rebuild civilization to a Captain and a collection of fifth-wheel characters having "adventures." I mean, take one of the most recent episodes of Andromeda

Andromeda
spoiler
space

where they made a complete mockery of Rev Bem and the faith he developed from years and years of fighting off his Magog nature and flat-out had Captain Hunt say he knew he (Hunt) was the "chosen one."

I can't help but to contrast how Hunt reacts here to the possition of being a chosen one and how Delenn and Sheridan reacted when they encountered Sebastian in "Comes The Inquisitor." Delenn, while she believed herself to be in a place where she would be highly influential in the coming Shadow War, was willing to die to save Sheridan trusting that someone else would take her place in the fight. On Andromeda, Hunt on the other hand seems too sure he's perfect and is the chosen one and all that crap, and the writers keep him being that way, that he seems like he's only a "leader" and the "chosen one" because they writers say so and not because it realistically fits with the story.

spoiler
space
ended

So, getting back on topic, I miss good Trek. I literally grew up on The Next Generation and even today I half-way find myself surprised that I no longer watch Trek (Enterprise specfically) and half-way see no reason to watch.

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

As for Berman being under contract...don't mean squat if they cancel the show.

He is in a contract with Paramount, not for Trek.

You do know that PS and BS basically usurped Berman on Nemesis right? They kinda went over his head to Paramount directly on many issues, partly to decrease his control over the film.

Heard the rumors... from the typical sources that also said Picard was going to die yada yada. Spiner was already getting his creative awe in, both were producers... they've already made plenty of demands. Patrick Stewart says in every interview going that Nemesis was the best and his favourite, and Berman was most certainly involved.

The only people that are really upset with Berman are the likes of Wil Wheaton and Garrett Wang.

Berman was NOT in complete control of Trek until Gene died. Though Gene was relegated to consultant at that point, much of his influence was still strongly felt on TNG. When I referred to "the beginning of the end" for Trek was post GR's death. That would include the last two seasons of TNG (which is when all the techno-babble and psycho-babble started to get really bad and the idea of technology solving most of the problems became more and more a tool in ST -- this was the diametrically opposite idealogy that GR brought to ST, for him it always man over machine.)

Gene was rather out it by around season two... very ill and not in control in his last few years. Berman had his hands half on the reigns in season one, and by season three Gene was not involved.

You look, like many Trek fans, at Gene through rose coloured glasses. But Gene, although he created a great franchise, was not the saint that people see him to be. He did TOS, which lasted three seasons (season three thanks to Bjo and her friends). The Motion Picture was considered somewhat of a disaster, and Gene was basically deposed in time for Star Trek II. For Star Trek II, which you love, Gene had been cut out. Then he created TNG, but soon took his hands off the reigns. Sure he created some great stuff. His moves to have a women first officer and a black officer were great. But he was also a cheat, took money for the TOS music (thus the composer refused to work with him again) and is reported to have many of the flaws that he tried to remove from his show.

Conversely, the technobable seasons as you call them, were Trek at its height of popularity.

It is just not the black and white issue that you see, of Gene doing the great stuff, and everything else starting to decline.

Was DS9 a good show? Yes, for the most part, but you hit on one thing...its ratings weren't nearly what TNG's were and, though starting in a good position, slid steadily during the entire run of the show. Voyager, again, strong start but the ratings slid badly, worse than DS9's, throughout -- thought they did have a slight resurgence towards the end. ENTERPRISE started at around where VOYAGER was and has badly lost ratings ever since.

Vague, and incorrect. You are comparing shows over a period of 17 years. There are many factors. TNG and DS9 were in syndication. Voyager was on UPN. UPN only has a 85% market reach for one, and is still a network that is in the red and finding its feet.

TV has changed massively. Ratings for all networks are down across the board, because there's more choice (read dilution). Key demographics are down for all networks. Over the years TV has changed rapidly.

In addition to this, TNG was the only sci-fi show on the air. X-Files came along, and every sci-fi mag going was all the twitter about it. Now there is tonnes of sci-fi, and a sci-fi channel and all sorts.

Go find a sci-fi show that was getting TNG's ratings. You will not find one. Or one even close. So Trek can't reall be expected to get those figures when TV is radically different now.

The only thing I will say is indicative of problems is Enterprise's slide. It started off with 12 and a half million viewers. So it proved that people were interested. But it's lost a lot since then. Probably because the show wasn't greatly interesting. I think they tried for the TNG days... weeks went by without phasers even being fired on that show. But people demand different TV now. They've changed now, tried to move the show... but of course getting people back is hard.

Repeatedly ST has stolen from B5 and others, even itself.

You say Trek has bland characters, then steals them from elsewhere. I'm sorry, DS9 is anything but bland. The likes of Dukat, Weyoun, Damar, Kai Winn.. sorry, I can't agree with you. As to DS9 being a rip-off of B5, that's a whole other topic... I can't agree with that one either, the shows are so different.

during the time that ENTERPRISE is set, we should be in the middle of the Earth/Romulan war and the Romulans shouldn't have but a fraction of the technology they have.

I don't think there's any firm evidence of when the war happened. I believe it was just before the birth of the Federation, so legitimately may not be for a while yet.

T'Pol acts about as Vulcan as an emotionally challenged ADHD child on ritalin. Come on...either make it Trek or create your own damn show.

And there is a reason, which they've been hinting to for a lot of the season. If you wait and see, you'll see what's been going on.

I would like to say as one final point, that all this defense may make people think I'm very pro-Trek. Well, not really. I think for the most part Enterprise has been bland, but getting a bit better of late. All I take issue with this the generalisations of why and when it happened. I don't think it's that easy.

I really must publish the article I've written...

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Yes, please do, Antony. I'm sorry, but even I remember reading an exerpt from an interview that indicated a lot of what I think you are asking for proof of. (Sorry, Dory here has no idea what source it was, other than online somewhere.)

Enterprise is making hell with the "Trek" timeline. To deny it is foolish. To claim they have some ultimate explanation might be more plausible.

I forgive Trek for changing the look of the Klingons. That's just improving makeup ability. But come on, Ant. As much as I have not recently viewed Enterprise on a regular basis (translation: I usually turn on the episode, walk into the computer room and ignore it ) it is painfully obvious they are not trying to make the series they claimed they wanted to make.

The Ferengi and Romulans are only part of it.

Quite frankly, I was hoping for more of a "Chief O'Brien on DS9" atmosphere. New technology that is breaking down and causing trouble, new encounters that no one is ready for but must learn to cope with instantly.

That could have been such a great series.

As it is now, I stand by my original assessment:

The dog is the most interesting character.
And they need to hire good writers if the series is ever going to be more than pap.

 

[Mike G]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Someone wanted examples of timeline distortion by Berman and Co....so here's a big one..during the time that ENTERPRISE is set, we should be in the middle of the Earth/Romulan war and the Romulans shouldn't have but a fraction of the technology they have. Also, the idea that Vulcans don't practice Mind Melds and haven't for centuries is ludicrous...there is backstory supporting the fact that for one thing, Sarek should be alive in this time, and he's been doing mind melds all his life. Oh, and then there's this horrid attack on Earth that no other time frame has ever mentioned. And we use phasers, though THE CAGE clearly dictates that phasers didn't yet exist. Then there's the tricorder thing....gee they're awfully advanced compared to what Kirk had. If you're going to set something in the history of the Trek Universe, then do it right..don't make it TNG times with different sets and some new uniforms...

Oh come on! I'm the biggest Star Trek fan I know (not including the internet) and not one of those things bothers me. In fact, I can only think of one continuity change in all of Enterprise that bothered me. As for the Xindi thing not ever being mentioned, I have a feeling that will be explained later on.

I understand lots of legitimate complaints with the show, however I don't think continuity is one of them.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

The Enterprise meets the Ferengi and doesn't make a decent record of it?

The Romulans have technology that can kick the Enterprise to hell, yet the Federation can catch up in such a short time?

I can't even begin, because I don't recall all of the arguments I've heard.

All I can say is: if Star Trek ever gets to be interesting again, I hope someone will let me know. I gave it another chance. Perhaps, as I say, the wrong episode. I like Phlock, the doctor, but that was just a mediocre episode at best.

To save Trek they will have to get good writers. They don't seem to be doing that. That's probably it for me, then.

 

[PsionTen]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

The Romulans have technology that can kick the Enterprise to hell, yet the Federation can catch up in such a short time?

The fact that humans are on the bottom rung of the technological ladder has bothered me for awhile now. Not only are the Romulans, Klingons, Vulcans, Andorians, Xindi and everyone else way more advanced, they actually have more than one freakin' ship. Don't get me wrong, I liked the fact that humans weren't one of the great galatic powers on B5, but according to everything we've seen and heard over the past 30 years of Star Trek, humans are supposed to be a major player during this time period.

As far as the series itself goes, it's almost like watching a chicken run around with its head cut off -- it's kinda interesting and kinda fu*ked up at the same time.

A blind man can see that there's no direction at all with this series. They seem to be jumping all over the place... does anyone still remember a little species called the Suliban? Weren't they important? While the Enterprise is out dealing with the Xindi who's stopping the Suliban from fu*cking with the timeline? What about that evil Future Guy bastard? For that matter, exactly how many people are fu*king around with the timeline anyway? Does any of these story lines tie together?

And the characters are, at times, even more abstract than the story lines. BTW, Is T'Pol simply going crazy or is she actually a Romulan in disguise?

 

[Mike G]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Eh, I'm done arguing. You people bring up some good points but I still think I'm right.

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

I gotta agree with Mike G that most issues are non-issues, or just don't matter. Some fans get too hung up on continuity. I think episodes like Ferengi break the spirit of the law rather than the law itself, so to speak though.

As to Earth being inferior to the Romulans in terms of technlogyy. Well a) we've already seen some other Starfleet ships sprouting up. and b) the Romulan was is probably 5 - 10 years away. In that time they can build up their fleet and you can bet they have put extra effort into building a fleet and doing research because of something like, I dunno, say a mad race threatening to blow up your world! That will be a great evolution enhancer.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Hung up on continuity?

Antony, my dear, I'm a Dr. Who fan.

No, I can forgive an awful lot if the characters and/or stories are good enough to motivate me to do so.

Simply put, Enterprise doesn't. I'll watch it tonight only because I keep hearing that they seem to be improving in the script department. I have some free time this week, so I'll actually sit down and watch it at 7pm.

Don't be surprised if you see me internetting by 7:20 though.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Dude, I'm usually the first to put down geek bitching about continuity details and tech issues. But it's not that Enterprise is just futzing with it a little, it's that it's completely ignoring it.

If you're going to make a show that takes place in a well-established and popular franchise (with hardcore fans) and set it in the universe's past, it has to at least follow the basic timeline. This is not an obsessive or nerdy expectation. They did it in Star Wars and Red Dragon because it only makes sense.

A geeky demand is: "The color of the warp coil nacel doo-dad is too blue for this period!"

A reasonable demand is: "Make the show about what you said it would be and which somehow logically connects to the stories you've given us for the past 30 years."

If they wanted a Trek show that had nothing or little to do with continuity, they could set it outside the Trek universe. They did that with Voyager, and we all know how that went. It still could have been good, but even there they insisted on brining back the Federation, Klingons, abandoning the Maqui rebellion dynamic early on, etc.

They want to have their cake and eat it too. It don't work that way.

Speaking of Voyager, I remember reading a fantastic interview with writer Ronald Moore about working on DS9 and Voyager, and he explains from an insider point of view the breakdown of the creative force of Star Trek. Required reading for anyone who wants to understand what the hell happened and why Rick Berman and his ilk indeed must go.

 

[crofootski]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Speaking of Voyager, I remember reading a fantastic interview with writer Ronald Moore about working on DS9 and Voyager, and he explains from an insider point of view the breakdown of the creative force of Star Trek. Required reading for anyone who wants to understand what the hell happened and why Rick Berman and his ilk indeed must go.

So, where is it? I'm sure we'd all like to read it, too.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

I was just thinking the same thing.

Can't you even give us a clue, old Mighty?
Where you might have seen this interview?