Enterprise: "Azati Prime"

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Dude, I'm usually the first to put down geek bitching about continuity details and tech issues. But it's not that Enterprise is just futzing with it a little, it's that it's completely ignoring it.

If you're going to make a show that takes place in a well-established and popular franchise (with hardcore fans) and set it in the universe's past, it has to at least follow the basic timeline. This is not an obsessive or nerdy expectation. They did it in Star Wars and Red Dragon because it only makes sense.

A geeky demand is: "The color of the warp coil nacel doo-dad is too blue for this period!"

A reasonable demand is: "Make the show about what you said it would be and which somehow logically connects to the stories you've given us for the past 30 years."

If they wanted a Trek show that had nothing or little to do with continuity, they could set it outside the Trek universe. They did that with Voyager, and we all know how that went. It still could have been good, but even there they insisted on brining back the Federation, Klingons, abandoning the Maqui rebellion dynamic early on, etc.

They want to have their cake and eat it too. It don't work that way.

Speaking of Voyager, I remember reading a fantastic interview with writer Ronald Moore about working on DS9 and Voyager, and he explains from an insider point of view the breakdown of the creative force of Star Trek. Required reading for anyone who wants to understand what the hell happened and why Rick Berman and his ilk indeed must go.

Bless you GKarsEye and hypatia! It's like being gay when you're young...you think you're the only one who sees this or feels that...then one day you find out, you're not alone...a lot of people feel the way you do.

I'm sorry Antony...excuse and try to exlain away the numbers all you want...but the mass Trek fan base has abandoned Trek slowly like a hole in a tanker, allowing it to sink to its doom. And the abandonment, whether you wish to believe it or not...started with DS9. Paramount has awakened to the fact that Berman has destroyed the Trek franchise....contract or no...they own the contract and can fire him whenever they wish to do so...they might have to buy him out of it...but he can go if they so wish it.

I don't care how many plugs they try to put in this leaky ass ship to try to keep it afloat...or how many "explanations" they try to pull over my head to fix their f*@k-ups...I can see them for what they are and simply don't buy them any longer.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not one of those GR is god people...I'm simply using the point of his death as the point at which I began to see Trek straying...as for the technobabble being during TNG's highest rated years...actually S4 - S6 were it's highest years...the technobabble started to get out of control in S6 and was was way out of control by S7.

Either way...Trek is dieing...Berman needs to go...and someone with passion and vision needs to come in...since Berman is about as passionate as a piece of belly-button lint and so are his characters. Hypatia was right...the best character on ENTERPRISE is the dog. The others? They all seem to be cardboard clones of every other Berman Trek character...Trek is a factory...ka-chunk, ka-chunk goes the machinery. Boring.

CE

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

A google search, you lazy people , came up with the first half.

It's actually from when he left Trek in 1999.

But I don't think this part has the bit where he rails into the trechno-babble and some solid examples of his reactions to the script and story ideas he'd receive.

Now that you know the timeframe, maybe one of you folks can find the whole thing.

Here's another interview I found which is more recent and much more diplomatic.

I've defended Brannon's work on TNG and, given this interview, it's my theory that as an intern making his way in the game, he was more interesting in braver ideas and catching scripts, rather than maintaining the status quo.

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

The thing is that I agree mostly with GKE and Hypatia too. But they don't make ountlandish claims.

Having worked in one way or another in Star Trek journalism for 8 years, I've seen a lot, I've heard a lot.

Your anti-Berman rants are just classic fanboy stuff. This almost puts me in a position of defending Berman... when I don't overly like him. I just think that too much blame is put on to him. It's just so easy to make grand statements, without knowing or explaining the intracacices.

Paramount would have ditched him a long, long time ago if he is bad as you state. In addition to this a show is a massive entity. So many forces within the production office, Paramount and UPN.

You said you liked Nemesis. Paramount were very happy with Nemesis. You said Berman wasn't involved with that one as much. Yet it failed...why? How do you connect that to Berman? He was on the set? His crappy Enterprise destroyed it because people were fed up with Trek? How are we gonna blame Berman for that one! You'll find a way.

John Billingsley (Phlox) told me that Dawn Ostroff at UPN is practically demanding more flesh in the show. It's lame decision making like that which destroys Trek.

As to the Ron Moore interviews... well Ron Moore is a god in IMHO. He is the new Joss or JMS. DS9, Roswell, Carnivale and now the new Galactica. Ron knows his stuff.

I ran those Ron Moore interviews originally, and the response was nothing short of fantastic. I don't think I'll ever see a fan response like that again. I will see if I can dig them out from my hard disk.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

As for Nemesis, my response is easy because I disagree with you both- I think the movie sucked, so is consistent with current Trek.

In the Moore interviews, it is clear that the less Berman is involved, the higher the quality. DS9 became the bastard black sheep of Trek when their pride-and-joy Voyager was born, so Berman abandoned it to Behr. One of Behr's most important jobs was battling Berman to shield Moore and the other writers from his asinine demands.

Trek is a classic case of When Suits Attack. Berman is a suit. Like for Generations, the other crappy Next Gen film: the writers were given an impossible list of stuff to include: both crews (even though no one from the old crew wanted to do it), Klingons, Guinan, etc. Story in the service of politics.

Suits have their place- a very important place. It just doesn't belong in the drafting room.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Nothing which has my honey buns (Patrick Stewart) in it is bad.

Well, not visually, anyhow.

John Billingsley (Phlox) told me that Dawn Ostroff at UPN is practically demanding more flesh in the show. It's lame decision making like that which destroys Trek.

This is what makes me say "why even bother" with Trek these days.

I don't know if the flesh-showing scenes are working to up the ratings for Enterprise. I seriously suspect NOT.

I hate what they are doing to my beloved, formerly beloved, sci-fi universe.

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

I don't think Berman abandonded DS9... I think as you say he's a suit, so he has less influence really (which is largely my whole antagonism over fanboys heaping so much at Berman's door). Trek has shown it really is influenced by the other exec producers, they are the guiding lights. Early DS9 and early VOY were good (the latter being better in its formative years) when Piller was in control. DS9 went to the genius Behr, and got better (but did change tone). Voyager went to Jeri Taylor, then Braga who is good in some ways, but not in others. Voyager ended up with Ken Biller.

What a lot of people fail to realise with Voyager is that it had four distinct voices over its course, which gave it a lot of changes in direction which isn't really good for a show.

It's probably because Berman is a suit that Paramount loves him, and hasn't gotten rid of him, and his job hasn't been on the edge as some claim. Having said that... I wouldn't be surprised if they did get rid of him, becasue they will wnat to draw a line under the matter if they want to try and reinvigorate Enterprise.

Berman has tried to get Ira Behr over to Voyager and Enterprise twice now. It'd be interesting to see if Paramount could lure him. If Berman has appreciation for Berh, Paramount might too...

Hyp, the whole flesh thing, of course it doesn't help. There's often this falicy that Seven of Nine saved Voyager, when in fact ratings continued to erode.

I find it amusing that the most popular episode of last season was an episode about Archer with the Doctor, in Sickbay with the Porthos. In the recent episodes, the one that showed a small uptick in the ratings was the Doctor episode. It was plainly obvious from initial reacion to the show that the Doctor was very popular.

But they don't draw on such strengths.

They do have a low opinion of fans. Not all want just titty, they like good characters and stories too.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

They do have a low opinion of fans. Not all want just titty, they like good characters and stories too.

Yea, I read some time ago that the episode where the doctor disagrees with capt. Archer was toned down, much to the displeasure of the actor who plays the doctor. I would have loved to see this alien doctor defy Archer's orders.

They have two aliens on this ship and they don't take advantage of their 'alien-ness' at all, IMHO.

Oh, and I forgot to watch it last night.
I think they repeat their episodes. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

Does anyone know when cancellation will be decided on? I'm thinking that filming for a new season starts sometime around August, right? If so, any decision in this department would be made by when?

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Hee. That was the previous time I spoke to John... when he said about the Phlox/Archer argument being toned down.

As to cancellation, they'll start making their plans within the next month. I think, internally at least, that they'll have a good idea if Enterprise will be going. In fact they probably have a good idea now.

 

[crofootski]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

To Hypatia...

I found a site (treknation.com) that has the Enterprise episodes. The next new episode is on April 21, followed every week by six more new episodes. That's the end of the season.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

Hmm. I should keep my sources straight.

When are you going to post some interviews, Antony? I thought you had some interviews and such like that. You are hogging all of this great stuff.

Crofootski, I actually want to catch the repeats. I have missed I think almost all of this season of Enterprise, and I have heard it has gotten better, so I'd like to catch the episodes before they go into their new ones. I do need to poke around, they might show them again on Saturday or something. Or I'll program my vcr to record the darned thing so next week when I inevitably forget again, it'll be taped.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

I'm not surprised that Phlox is the most popular character on Enterprise. Besides him being funny and engaging, he's really the only person on the show that still encapsulates the sense of wonder and possibility of the show's intial promise. His curiosity and wonder at his human colleagues and the aliens and worlds he sees is like that of the audience aching to experience something similar vicariously.

Archer started off that way, but has become cynical, angry, and disinterested. Malcolm never cared about exploration, only violence, and even Tripp and T'Pol never had that. For explorers, they sure don't explore much.

 

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

The thing is that I agree mostly with GKE and Hypatia too. But they don't make ountlandish claims.

Having worked in one way or another in Star Trek journalism for 8 years, I've seen a lot, I've heard a lot.

Your anti-Berman rants are just classic fanboy stuff. This almost puts me in a position of defending Berman... when I don't overly like him. I just think that too much blame is put on to him. It's just so easy to make grand statements, without knowing or explaining the intracacices.

Paramount would have ditched him a long, long time ago if he is bad as you state. In addition to this a show is a massive entity. So many forces within the production office, Paramount and UPN.

You said you liked Nemesis. Paramount were very happy with Nemesis. You said Berman wasn't involved with that one as much. Yet it failed...why? How do you connect that to Berman? He was on the set? His crappy Enterprise destroyed it because people were fed up with Trek? How are we gonna blame Berman for that one! You'll find a way.

John Billingsley (Phlox) told me that Dawn Ostroff at UPN is practically demanding more flesh in the show. It's lame decision making like that which destroys Trek.

As to the Ron Moore interviews... well Ron Moore is a god in IMHO. He is the new Joss or JMS. DS9, Roswell, Carnivale and now the new Galactica. Ron knows his stuff.

I ran those Ron Moore interviews originally, and the response was nothing short of fantastic. I don't think I'll ever see a fan response like that again. I will see if I can dig them out from my hard disk.

Look, first of all quit calling me a fanboy...it makes me sound like some dweebie geek teenager with a pimple face and stacks of tech manuals. I am an intelligent, educated, professional who also understands just how this business works. Quite frankly I'm not the only one blaming Berman. Many have called for his resignation, including a lot of the fans, and that call started during DS9. I blame him if for no other reason than the fact that he's the man in charge. Again I say, "A captain is responsible for the conduct of the crew under his command." Unlike "fanboys" I don't make excuses for Berman. It's clear that Moore had his issues with him...it's clear that PS and BS have had their issues with him. And yes, I think the main reason why Nemesis failed is because Berman as so disenfranchised the fans that they didn't want to waste their time, especially after INSURRECTION, which if you like it you must be one of about 5 people who did. Even the cast was embarrassed by it. I remember an interview with Sirtis after it was released, it was on E! or something where she flat out told the reporter she didn't want to talk about INSURRECTION. And it weren't a nice look on her face, she was obviously embarrassed by the film.

Like I said, watch Meyer's commentary on ST6 to get a great approach to Trek and making it fresh while being true to the fans and universe and what has been established.

Do I think that UPN might be making stupid lame ass suggestions? Sure, why not...TNT did it to JMS, I'm not surprised by that. But clearly a lot of the stupidity and bad lack of direction and truth to Trek history I place in Berman's lap. If you mismanaged Trek this badly, having no direction from series to series...making lackluster films...then you don't deserve to be in charge. Can they get rid of him...YES THEY CAN. You're the one saying Gene was pushed out, and yes he was. Exactly...he was pushed out, while he was under contract. Why haven't they gotten rid of Berman before now? If I knew the answer to that one it would solve a mystery that's been driving me nuts for years now. Berman's the one who told Nimoy he would direct the GENERATIONS script as written, period; to which Nimoy reacted by walking out. Nimoy saw potential in doing a two generation script...he thought there were some good ideas there but wanted to make some changes to make the film better. Berman wouldn't hear it. Come on, this is Nimoy...one of a hand full of people who not only knows Trek better than anyone else, but understands what the spirit of Trek is and how to make it work. You don't let Nimoy walk out on you...that alone tells me he's an idiot.

Sorry...there's nothing in Berman's resume that really inspires me to think he's some great genuis or imaginative wonderboy...unlike JMS. Really, what was Berman's great achievement prior to Trek? Wasn't it Simon and Simon? Give me a freakin' break!

No, I can admitt that Berman may not be the full problem in every situation, but he's the biggest and the first one that needs to be fixed.

CE

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

When are you going to post some interviews, Antony? I thought you had some interviews and such like that. You are hogging all of this great stuff.

Well my recent one with John is over at www.treknation.com right now if you want to read it.

In terms of B5.. I do have one on tape. Just need time to type it up and stuff.

And replying to colonyearth...

Look, first of all quit calling me a fanboy...it makes me sound like some dweebie geek teenager with a pimple face and stacks of tech manuals. I am an intelligent, educated, professional who also understands just how this business works.

I said your rants were classic fanboy stuff. I didn't say you were a fanboy. But there's nothing wrong with being a fanboy. I'm a fanboy still, and proud of it.

Many have called for his resignation, including a lot of the fans

Is that meant to impress me in some way? I've seen Save Trek campaigns, sack Berman campaigns, support Berman campaigns... even one guy wanting to sack the entire writing staff and having a fan committee run the show.

And yes, I think the main reason why Nemesis failed is because Berman as so disenfranchised the fans that they didn't want to waste their time.

Hee. I got that one right.

Or it could have been another genre $300m+ film was going to open up mere days later, and with ticket prices every soaring, people are choosing their things to watch.

Why haven't they gotten rid of Berman before now? If I knew the answer to that one it would solve a mystery that's been driving me nuts for years now.

Ahh, now this is my point. The reason you don't know is because you're not in a position to say. No one really outside of the Trek inner circle, Paramount etc. Studios dispose of people willy nilly and would have disposed of him if they felt he was the route of evil for the past 14 years as you claim. But they don't... or at least they didn't. They may get more desperate now though.

Sorry...there's nothing in Berman's resume that really inspires me to think he's some great genuis or imaginative wonderboy...unlike JMS.

I can agree with you on that. Berman won't go down as a legendary TV creator, no way.

 

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

[quote

Sorry...there's nothing in Berman's resume that really inspires me to think he's some great genuis or imaginative wonderboy...unlike JMS.

I can agree with you on that. Berman won't go down as a legendary TV creator, no way.

[/quote]

My question, Antony, is why are you defending him then? No, I'm not stupid here, I know that he can't feasably be the entire problem, but you have to admit he's a large part of it. You have to remember, Paramount was bought by Viacom about the time Berman took over, exactly when during that period I can't recall though. I blame Viacom for part of the problems. When Gulf and Western owned Paramount, they seemed to have a greater respect for all things Trek, and for the original cast. It was during their tenure that GR was forced out because he didn't want any conflict on the show...like that's ever a good idea. I can't help but to wonder if G&W had remained the parent company, would Berman have lasted. I really don't think he would've...the mentality behind Trek has been very different under Viacom...it's almost like they don't or at least didn't have to pay attention to it...it wasn't really on their list of important things it seemed(s). Who knows, you're right, we're not in those rooms to hear what's really said.

Either way, you have to admit, when the man running the show let's it run down so badly over so many years, ignores continuity, at the least allows his people to insult the mass fan base...and well the list goes on and on...it's time to get someone new who does have vision and can bring back the passion and stay true to the history of the universe. I mean, if you were the man in charge of a multi-billion dollar franchise and while under your watch it started loosing money and fans like Trek has...wouldn't you expect to be fired?

Bottom line, Trek is dieing...it's lost its fan base...and it's lost direction and vision. I simply can't watch it any longer because I end up angry because I'm watching them thumb their nose at the continuity and a rich history that could've been explored instead of ignored.

Like I've said of Berman and Co. (and realize when I say Co. I mean others who are to blame for these problems, Antony)..."like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target."

In other words, you keep telling the wrong story and going in the opposite direction from that which you should be going.

CE

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Azati Prime\"

My question, Antony, is why are you defending him then? No, I'm not stupid here, I know that he can't feasably be the entire problem, but you have to admit he's a large part of it.

Well it was just your generilsations, that's all. When Berman has worked with Trek for 17 years, through good and bad, it's just futile to blame him for the fall of Trek whilst not crediting with the rise in Trek. To credit him for just one and not the other is bias.

There's also so many other factors: other producers, network, Paramount, changing UPN, more networks, viewer dilution, falling key demographics... just so many factors that I believe Berman to be quite a small part of it.

That's all.