Enterprise: "Countdown"

[GKarsEye]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

In the first ep with Romulans in TOS (where the guy that plays Spock's father is the Romulan captain), they talk about a war that happened 80 or so years before, which created the Neutral Zone (which still is in play during the the TNG time). They do that to create the tension of the cat-and-mouse game between Kirk and the Romulan game that the ep is really about, and one of the crewman's grandfather died in that initial conflict that they speak of. Also, that ep marked the first time humans saw Romulans. We know that because everyone on the Enterprise was schocked that the Romulans look like Vulcans (and that made that crewman begin to hate Spock).

So this means that there was a war, 80 or so yrs before Kirk's time, between humans and Romulans in which humans never even saw a Romulan. I always took that to mean that view screens were relatively new to Kirk's time (which is why it bothers me that it's on Enterprise, along with universal translators and transporter beams).

Enterprise did with the Romulans what they did with Ferengi, Borg, and holosuits: put them in the show without our heroes knowing what they were.
- Ferengi tried to raid Enterprise but were faught off. Their race was unidentified, making the TNG's crew still the first "official" encounter with them in that 1st season ep about that planet's guardian who judged the two races.
- Romulans had a space battle with them and Archer saw a big about "The Romulan Star Empire" in a library in that post-apocolyptic future he was stuck in at the end of seaon 1.
- They fought the Borg on Earth, but didn't know they were the Borg.
- Trip was in an alien holosuit, but it wasn't called a holosuit, because humans didn't invent it yet.

These are all symptoms of the producers falling back on old habbits to churn out the same stuff.

One good thing about the Xindi arc is that they don't do this. The arc gives them the material.

So all of this just tells us that these folks don't have what it takes to make this show what it was promised to be: a return to the exploration and adventure feel of the original series with fresh ideas and stories. It's now a polished, well-made wanna-be DS9 without the greatness of DS9.

 

[ElScorcho]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

I'm pretty sure the Borg did not know about humans before Q.

People always think of that episode as the first Borg ep, but it was really a Q ep. The whole point was that Q was so mad at Picard for not allowing him to join their crew that he flaunted his "superiority" by forcing them to face an enemy they weren't yet ready for. The idea is that humans would have eventually encountered the Borg anyway, but it wasn't supposed to happen that early. It was that ep that made the Borg aware of humans and made them specifically seek out the assimilation of humanity.

Thats how I thought it was. But again as you pointed out that one can be blamed on First Contact and not on Enterprise.

Don't forget Voyager. According to the ep "The Raven", hoochie mama and her parents were assimilated when she was a little kid, presumably before the Q incident.

 

[crofootski]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Remember the TOS ep named "Journey to Babel", where we meet Spock's parents? The NCC-1701 Enterprise was taking lots of alien ambassadors (?) to Babel for a conference or something. B&B could have used several of those alien races (they did use the Andorians) in first contact situations in the new show. Seems like there were several races in the TOS ep, whether or not they were identified in that ep.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Remember the TOS ep named "Journey to Babel", where we meet Spock's parents? The NCC-1701 Enterprise was taking lots of alien ambassadors (?) to Babel for a conference or something. B&B could have used several of those alien races (they did use the Andorians) in first contact situations in the new show. Seems like there were several races in the TOS ep, whether or not they were identified in that ep.

That was actually my hope, expectation and excitement about Enterprise before it came on the air.

 

[ElScorcho]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

I think we're bordering on fanwank territory here.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

I've watched all of Enterprise, from its beginning. There have been a few good shows, but most were mediocre at best. That is, until this season. It has gotten progressively better in the Xindi story arc. They have not been pressing the reset button. There has been more action, but there has been a lot more character development too. CE, if you had been watching it all, you would know this. They have had to make lots of hard choices, often running counter to the utopian philosophy that is common to Trek. There has been lots of plot, politics, and actual suspense. Good guys have become bad guys, and bad guys have become good guys. I particularly like how the main premise - pre-emptive war - is one we face in the real world today.

I don't hate time travel either. Time travel stories were one of the first things that attracted me to scifi, when I was young. It seems likely to me that the people behind the temporal cold war are the Guardians, the sphere builders, since they can travel through time, as well as other dimensions. I'll make a couple of predictions: Hoshi did something else to the weapon that we and the Reptilians don't know about yet, and, a certain Reptilian assistant to the Reptilian commander seems skeptical of his commander's actions. I think he just might use his own initiative, to the advantage of the Enterprise, at a critical point.

Hypatia, one thing GKE left out about T'Pol's "addiction" - the substance she was taking is the one that, if used as shielding on the Enterprise, would protect them from the spatial anomalies in the expanse. That's how she discovered its effect on her. I think they missed a trick there. They could have had her desensitize herself to the substance, through the injections, so that they could use it in their shielding.

 

[PsionTen]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

I don't hate time travel either. Time travel stories were one of the first things that attracted me to scifi, when I was young.

I agree with you there. It doesn't get any better than when time travel is done well -- B5 is probably the best example of that (at least on tv). My only complaint about time travel (other than when its written badly) is when it's overused to the point that it becomes a crutch ... and I think the first two seasons of Enterprise was a good example of that. If this had been the first season of Enterprise, I would be hailing as the best Trek series yet (other than my beloved DS9). Unfortunately, we've had two wildly uneven seasons that preceded it which, I'm afraid to say, probably damaged it permanently (even though it was picked up for a fourth season, most people agree that a Friday UPN time slot will spell an almost certain death). In those two seasons, we've had time travel up the wazoo that clearly had no direction ... everything from "Future Guy" to Daniels to those creepy Suliban, none of it made much sense and most of it was forgetable.

In this season, on the other hand, the time travel aspect was handled much better -- no doubt because the entire season was plotted out before hand. The only problem I have with this season, other than T'Pol's crack whore drug addiction, is that it doesn't exist in a vaccum ... the first two seasons seem unnecessary at best and degrading at worst. There was absolutely no character development that came from those first two full seasons, no on-going story lines (like Data's on-going search for humanity; Captain Sisko's uneasy position as Emissary; or Captain Sinclair's search to find out what really happened to him at the Battle of the Line), there was no nothing ... just a bunch a stuff that happened one week that was forgotten the following week.

With that said, I hope Enterprise will let this time travel stuff rest for next season and go on to another arc -- like the Birth of the Federation (which this season could lead into nicely). On an unrelated note, I think some series -- like Smallville, for example -- could benefit from some well thought out time travel episodes ... it would be killer to see a present-day Superman enemy go back in time to kill a less powerful Clark (ok, not exactly creative, but it would be cool to see).

 

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

I watched as much as I could stomach of this season. The more they blew Trek history to hell, the more angry I became. Like Hypatia said, it's an overall feeling that the TPTB just don't give a shit about Trek history and culture...or the fans.


Oh, and according to the Chronology, we were supposed to be in the midst or about to be in the midst of the Romulan War during this period. We were not supposed to meet the Klingons for another 30 years or so and the events surrounding the "things did not go well" comment on the Klingon first meeting, were events that helped to spawn the formation of the Federation.

Personally, the story ENT. should've told IMHO were these events. Arced, to tell the first meeting with the Klingons up through the series concluding with the founding of the Federation. Show us how it all happened...show us meeting the races we've seen and heard about in future Trek. Show us the growing pains of Starfleet.

As my best friend says so well, "Stop expanding, start expounding." Trek has a huge history to explore, many stories left to revisit or show the beginnings of...or better stories left incomplete. There is such a rich universe, we could have had ENT. explore it all without creating anything "new" and still filled an entire series.

So much history, and instead of exploring it, they created something new that we've never heard of, and destroyed much of that rich history and culture rather than celebrate it.

Sorry...ENT. missed the target...as B&B so often do.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Personally, the story ENT. should've told IMHO were these events. Arced, to tell the first meeting with the Klingons up through the series concluding with the founding of the Federation. Show us how it all happened...show us meeting the races we've seen and heard about in future Trek. Show us the growing pains of Starfleet.

Yeah, this is kinda what I was expecting and hoping to see, and it sure would have made sense. I also remember them talking about how the show would deal with exploration and humanity's getting into space before the series started, something that's even highlighted in the theme song. It's so odd to tune in and see a theme that shows the man's first flight and moon landing and then launching into some crap about Insectoids and Spheres. It would have been really sweet to make half the eps arc stories and half stand-alone exploration stories in the style of TOS.

No matter how well they handle this Xindi nonsense, it's just hard to give a shit when they didn't fulfill either promise of the series: exploration or Federation arc. I'm sure they'll create a Federation at some point, but I can't imagine it making much sense coming off this time travel Insectoid gibberish.

 

[PsionTen]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Oh well, so much for the hope that they would move away from time travel next season.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

You know, as much as I felt last week's episode was an improvement, the season finale left me quite cold.

I do believe I might go back to just ignoring Enterprise next season. I think it's gotten to the point where it's just become an annoyance to me.

SPOILERS TO THE SEASON FINALE OF ENTERPRISE:
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[spoiler]When the whole "you cannot die you are too important to the future, the others don't matter, but you do" hit my ears I swear, I could have puked.

I mean, I literally felt a twinge in my stomache.

If Earth is destroyed would it put an end to this miserable series? (Sorry to Antony and others who like the show, I'm glad for your sake it has been renewed. But I found that season finale painful to watch.)

[/spoiler]

For some reason I thought the old spoiler code was working again. Oopsies. I put some space in there now that I see it isn't.

 

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Great FX but sucky story and ending...more time travel? Archer was key in the formation of the Federation? The Federation forms at least twenty years too early, BEFORE the Romulan War?

Now they've F'd up the timeline and continuity so frelling much more...I mean all of these events and not ONE mention in later shows about Archer or Enterprise or Xindi or, well, any of it. But wait, these people (especially one of them), and these events (at least they're seeming to say they do) apparently are crucial to the formation of the Federation...and yet we've never heard of them before! That's like talking about the events that created the U.S. and forgeting about the Revolutionary War and George Washington (or Jefferson or any of the major players). I mean come on.

Ok, argument here is that those shows came before this one, so they obviously couldn't mention Archer, etc. That's what I call bad writing. So you write your show to FIT what was said in earlier shows. Not much was said of this time period in earlier Trek shows and films...or any details really about the formation of the Federation and the events that led up to it. But what WAS said in earlier shows and films has ALL been contradicted en masse in ENTERPRISE! There's been absolutely NO attempt to stay true to any of the few facts we did know and apparently EVERY attempt to go against those facts. It's this exact mentality that has been a major part of my anger at B&B lately and my disdain with current Trek and what they've done to it. It's like they're TRYING to piss off the fans.

I did see one opportunity to fix it all in this new cliffhanger, but I know that they won't see it, use it or even attempt to fix what they've royally F*@CKED UP! Why? Because TPTB behind Trek are ignorant, unimaginative, blind, disrespectful morons!

Should anyone wish to "hear" what I saw as the perfect opportunity to fix Trek given what we saw in the season finale, then I will post it...it's really a brilliant idea that would explain the more advanced tech than Kirk had that we've seen (much more advanced than Kirk's and way too early) and set all right in the Trek history. I only wish I could get to them, get the power to be heard and get this idea done. Or at the least had any faith in B&B to fix what they've systematically been destroying for three years now and fix it right with respect toward the fans, the history and the continuity of the STAR TREK universe.

Unfortunately such a faith does not exist and hasn't for many, many years now...and therefore, in this case, cannot "manage."



CE

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

I did see one opportunity to fix it all in this new cliffhanger, but I know that they won't see it, use it or even attempt to fix what they've royally F*@CKED UP! Why? Because TPTB behind Trek are ignorant, unimaginative, blind, disrespectful morons!

Stop holding your emotions back, CE, tell us what you really feel...

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I'm curious, what would you say could have fixed what I consider to be the "horrible mistake that is known as Enterprise"?

 

[Glacophane]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

I missed last weeks episode but for sake of closure I watched last nights. I was greatly disappointed. And Hyp I was groaning and saying "Come on!" at the same scene with Archer where he was shown to be a big part of the creation of the Federation. Since they havent really done anything with the Federation, it's like Berman and co. give us this glimpses in future settings just to say, "See, there is going to be a federation." As someone mentioned earlier, it's just a way to link Enterprise with all the other Trek shows.
I had hoped we would see all the events that led up to the creation of the Federation, exploration of unknown space (without all the consulting of the Vulcan star maps), and meeting new races. And the very last scene of last night's ep really leaves me in doubt of their next season. (I dont need a spoiler for that do I)?

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

How to fix it? Cancel the f***ing show, says, "Oopsy," and watch Babylon 5.

Speaking of forming the Federation: it turns it will happen "in seven years," which puts it outside the scope of the show. And it kind of kills the suspense.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Personally, I'd say better safe than sorry. I would probably put "spoiler" in the title, myself, actually.

And I know, I know: what they could have done with this show is staggering. I mean, lots of interesting things could have happened between the first Enterprise and Kirk's time. As most have pointed out, like that big ol' war. And actual first contact situations before the Prime Directive was formalized.

I don't mind so much the "no one mentioned it". Perhaps every elevator ride we don't see someone was talking about the famous captain Archer and his pooch.

What I mind is it's soooooooooooo lame a story. Again, I'm sorry to those who like the show, I am just not finding myself interested in the characters, the stories, or.. well.. anything at all.

Should I even try to catch the reruns? Everyon said there were a few good episodes. Which ones were they? (So I can give this show one, probably last, try.)

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

How to fix it? Cancel the f***ing show, says, "Oopsy," and watch Babylon 5.

Speaking of forming the Federation: it turns it will happen "in seven years," which puts it outside the scope of the show. And it kind of kills the suspense.

But then I'd never know what happened to my favorite character: the dog. Whatever his name is. Porthos? Where did that name come from, anyway? It sounds classical somehow.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

How to fix it? Cancel the f***ing show, says, "Oopsy," and watch Babylon 5.

Speaking of forming the Federation: it turns it will happen "in seven years," which puts it outside the scope of the show. And it kind of kills the suspense.

But then I'd never know what happened to my favorite character: the dog. Whatever his name is. Porthos? Where did that name come from, anyway? It sounds classical somehow.

I think Porthos was a Musketeer, not sure if anyone else famous had the name though.

You all are stronger than I am. I watched the first few episodes of this season, and tried to watch as religiously as possible for the first two seasons, but, I just couldn't take it anymore and gave up halfway through the season this year. Couldn't even find the strength to wath the finale this year.

I agree Hyp, It's not so much what was never mentioned, it's what goes against what little was actually stated. And Porthos is my favorite character as well. And I still stay a show like this one was "supposed to be" needs a Captain played by a more Macho actor like Christopher Walken or Michael Ironside.

 

[PsionTen]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

And Porthos is my favorite character as well.

Mine too ... he's the only character that the writers haven't screwed up. That, and I just love Beagles.

 

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

The name Porthos: Porthos is a fictional character in the novels The Three Musketeers, Twenty Years After and The Vicomte de Bragelonne by Alexandre Dumas. He and the other two musketeers Athos and Aramis are friends of the novel's protagonist, D'Artagnan. (What's frightening is that there are actually Prothos fan sites and if you do a web search for Porthos, you pull up more crap about the dog than you do about the name's origin.)

Sorry, Hyp, it still bugs the shit out of me that it's never mentioned, ever. Another analogy would be like talking about the time in which the Civil War took place and, oh, forgetting to mention the Civil War...or Lincoln. Just doesn't happen. No you make the show fit what is established and use the show to fill in the missing pieces and add clarity where needed...to show great events.

According to the chronology, the Federation isn't suppose to form for at least another 20 or so years. Actually, the event that is supposed to be occurring during this period is the Earth/Romulan War...which was actually supposedly fought with old style nukes and the Romulans weren't supposed to have Warp (or at the least a very slow, slow warp capability). The ships that Earth are supposed to be using at this time are the Daedalus Class of ships, not this more modern than Kirk's ship a hundred years from now looking thing (with Picard time style Padds and Tricorders and phasers included -- even though such tech doesn't seem to exist in Kirk's and just prior to Kirk's time (see The Cage and The Menagerie)).

Now, also, according to the chronology (which was based on canon established within the series' and films) the time for the Romulan War was clearly established. Also, according to the chronology it was clearly established in canon that the first meeting with the Klingons took place some 30 years after Enterprise is set and did not go well, which began the many years of hostility between Earth (and Federation) and the Klingons. It is also these events that spark the build up to the formation of the United Federation of Planets -- AFTER the first meeting with the Klingons some 30 yrs AFTER what we're seeing in ENTERPRISE. These events are established in canon and organized and documented in the chronology. If you have such a valuable resource at your fingertips...why aren't you using it? That's my question to B&B. Why? Because they don't give a shit about continuity, history, or accuracy...and they couldn't care less about the fans, both have basically stated as much in more than one interview. They see the fans as some companies see employees...oh well, I can always get more.

If they had really wanted to show the formation of the Federation, the first meeting with the Klingons, and have Romulans roaming about that we still don't see, then they should've set the show at least 30 years further ahead than they did, then they would be accurate according to canon. Although many aspects would still be grossly inaccurate, at least I would be able to give them some kudos that the time frame for these events is correct.

I'm no geek-boy who owns the tech manuals and such...I do own the chronology and do care about Trek and its history. As a writer, I find it fascinating to wonder about this history and would love to explore it and expound upon it. Which is why I'm stunned at just how much they seem to despise it and destroy it.

Again, it is as Hyp said, the overall feeling that they just don't care whether they're accurate or not and have, with big events and little, seemingly set out to ignore the rich Trek history and destroy it whenever possible. Not to mention, two dimensional characters, too much T&A and bad writing, with no account for what has gone before, what comes next or a sense of thread or continuity.


ENTERPRISE has thus far been one big missed opportunity after another. Sad.

As for my idea...I'll try to flush it out into some good wording and post it sometime today. Suffice it to say, it would require a slight use of the time travel "reset button." However, it would also leave at least Archer with a knowledge of events and would fully correct the technical and timeframe issues that ENTERPRISE has created in a fun, fascinating, exciting manner...and starting with exactly where they've left us in the season finale.

Hopefully I can get it out today and see what you all think.

CE