Enterprise vs. Rangers

Catheryn · Sep 9, 2001

I think I've stepped into an alternate Universe...!!

Definately a 'what the...!' moment!!

GKarsEye... we're kindred spirits, no matter what we say, we're guaranteed to piss somebody off!

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"Officially, I'm a P5. Unofficially, my range is more... much more."

SataiDelenn · Sep 10, 2001

Um... do you think we scarred the actors off?

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Sheridan: "It's... damn inconvienient!"
Delenn: "The truth often is."

channe · Sep 10, 2001

I'm an actor! You didn't scare me off!

Umm, of course, my acting career has absolutely nothing to do with B5LR, but, hey...

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Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire and The Next JMS
--
B5 Synchroninity of the Day: I just found out that the new dorm I'm living in next year has been named Breen Hall.

KoshN · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dylan Neal:
I'm referring to the American TV Guide, the week of Aug 25-31 with Scott Bakula and Jolene Blalock on the cover with the title "THE NEXT TREK".

Let me give you a few similarities.

A) Scott Bakula on his role of Capt. Jonathan Archer, "He's a renegade who writes his own rules and is a bit of a brat, but I'd absolutely follow him into space." I couldn't have described Capt. David Martel better. Now granted this describes 99.9% of all action oriented heroes on television and in film, but it doesn't help in the on-going Trek vs. B5 comparison. Fortunately Scott and I are very different in age.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, except for the "brat" part, it sounds like he described Capt. Gideon from Crusade.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

B) The Enterprises technology is referred to as endearingly quaint and highly troublesome. Anyone see any similarity with a twenty year old flying "tin can" that no one else wants and may or may not be haunted with it's own technical problems?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we knew all along that Enterprise was going to be using older tech than the other Trek shows, even TOS. I was hoping you (the cast of B5:LotR) would get a better ship (e.g. a Whitestar), but JMS probably has a really good reason for this. From what I've read at http://www.b5lr.com/plot.html
he has. Don't worry. I'm sure ANY JMS B5 show could easily outclass ANY new Berman/Braga show, especially if JMS doesn't have to deal with TNT-style contradictory "notes."

I almost feel sorry for Scott Bakula.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

C) The two-hour premiere of Enterprise kicks off with a never-before-seen villain race that figures prominently in the new series. I MEAN COME ON!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you know a heck of a lot more than any of us fans about the B5:LotR pilot movie. Maybe I missed JMS's comment on "a never-before-seen villain race" in B5:LotR. All I can go by is what JMS has said, and he's being careful about not leaking too much stuff. Caution: Don't spill any beans you're not supposed to.

The main problem for B5:LotR is that Enterprise is going to debut first (shades of DS9 coming to TV ahead of B5, <shudder>).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

D) In regard to the crew it was stated, "...the prequel is about people who are giddy and sometimes reckless, not seasoned pros there to uphold and obey the Prime Directive." Again this sounds like a quote from the TCA convention about Rangers.

Both shows sound like my quote of Das Boot in space. In fact the article describes their ship as a "submarine starship."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Das Boot" was anything but giddy.

Again, from the "submarine" comment, it sounds like the Excalibur from Crusade (except for the size issue, of course). In "A Call to Arms," Drake says Excalibur is "based on the submarine model, linear instead of circular" or something along those lines.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Now I'm not saying that these two shows are identical, clearly they won't be. But clearly we are going to be referred to as a poor man's copy cat since that line of thinking has already been established by many in the sci-fi universe, and that's a shame.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There should be a lot of differences between the two shows. "Enterprise" is pre-TOS, and there just venturing out into the galaxy. In B5:LotR, the Rangers have been around for 1000 years. The Minbari have been exploring space for longer than that. All the stuff from the pre-2265 B5 episodes is known (Vorlons, Shadows, technomages, Drakh, etc.), at least it is to B5 fans, and to your characters.

Your show has the B5 universe and JMS to draw upon. Enterprise is going to have to rely on the intelligence, imagination and writing skills of Berman, Braga, and Voyager writers.

Trust me, they're the underdog.

I fully intend on watching both shows, but I have about a million times more faith in B5:LotR being great, than I have in Enterprise being even marginally acceptable. The Enterpise premiere will probably draw hard-core trekkies (those that watched 100% of Voyager), Quantum Leap fans, and old Trek fans like me (who are going to give it a look, but after DS9 & Voyager, aren't expecting much).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

I'm just a little annoyed at coming out of the gate second, and perhaps worried that this can't help our chances in the long run if we're considered a copy cat and obviously can't compete in ratings over at Sci Fi.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Coming out of the gate second, plus surface similarities could hurt B5:LotR's popularity among those viewers who want to promote Trek and trash anything B5, and anybody they can brainwash.

The real trouble is that by the time the B5:LotR pilot airs, Enterprise will be established. As long as they're not on at the same time (same day/same time), it shouldn't make a difference though.

On the bright side, by the time B5:LotR deputs, Enterprise may have bombed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Obviously we're not meant to compete Nielsen wise, but if the two shows are too similar, some network suits might rightly think why pay for a clone that people are already watching somewhere else? Does any of this make sense?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Network suits" and "think" are usually mutually exclusive, and tend to separate from each other even when thrust together, like oil & water.

1. I doubt the shows will have anything in common except a few surface similarities, unless Berman and Braga hire a bunch of spies. Even network suits ought to be able to tell that the shows are different.

2. You don't have to get as big Nielsen numbers as they do to stay on the air.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

So this is why I was a little shocked by the article. Any thoughts?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish I could see the exact text of the article you read. I didn't get that issue of TVGuide. The online version at...
http://www.tvguide.com/magazine/issues/010820/magftr.asp

...doesn't seem to be it.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel. http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited September 10, 2001).]

KoshN · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SataiDelenn:

If Sci-Fi has any concept of good business practice, or any idea about how to make something appeal, they should do at least two things in response to Enterprise...

Plaster the world with information - a lot of it is on the InterNet already, but few people really use the InterNet to look for B5 unless they are fans... so screw the InterNet, cover selected print and televised media!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That last line about plastering the world and print media sounds awfully familiar.

Expose people who are not already B5/Crusade fans.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Then... move the schedule up. You guys almost have a finished product from all reports. Air the film in October, after the audience buzz has died a little about Enterprise and watch your show ascend.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm all for that!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

I'd even consider to go so far as a Sci-Fi exec to invite Berman, Bragga and whoever else onto a panel with JMS and Netter, and let them discuss it, air it at prime time and watch two of the best Sci-Fi shows lay this game of insinuation to rest.

Is there better publicity? Have Sci-Fi do a deal with UPN and broadcast the debate on UPN also, and its affiliate stations.

Every Trek fan in history would watch it, THERE are a few million hits already for the ratings, and of course every B5 fan who knew about it would most likely be excited at the chance to watch these two warring behemoths discuss the allegations.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Berman/Braga would never go for that. They could only lose.

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KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dylan Neal:
In regard to marketing, the cast was always told that Sci Fi had intended to run trailers for the tv movie in movie theaters, just as they had for Dune. This is a gutsy move in my opinion since the trailer would obviously be compared in production quality with the other "feature" trailers (with budgets ten to thirty times the size of Rangers') and might suffer from that,...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The place the Rangers trailers might suffer the most, would be in the CGI bits, right? CGI for the big screen has to be rendered higher-res. Maybe they could "up" the quality of the Rangers trailers shown in the theaters, so that they would not make a bad impression???

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

...not to mention how few people really know anything about B5.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All the more reason to show the Rangers trailers in theaters!

Those are the people we have to get to watch.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

On the flip side it would show a real determination on Sci Fi's part to market this thing. If they also give us the same billboard campaign that Dune got, we might get some serious awareness in the general public.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, this sounds an awful lot like what I've been saying (off-Sci-Fi channel advertising/real world advertising)!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

I'm certainly going to be interested if they follow through with their original ideas. I know some people outside of Sci Fi who are responsible for drumming up awareness are a little disappointed with the networks silence.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, there is supposed to be something during the Crusade Chain Reaction on 10/8, but that's only on their own channel.

Exposure is needed outside of the Sci-Fi Channel, and outside TV completely (print ads, billboards, and including bumperstickers/window decals so we fans could help advertise the B5:LotR pilot movie). I want to help. I wonder if any other B5/Crusade fans would like to help in this way.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

On the other hand, Sci Fi's publicity department has been doing some ground work. We have to remember this thing is still a long way off and major publications work months in advance of release. Not that we're going to get the same saturation as Enterprise obviously.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I want to get the "Babylon 5: Legend of the Rangers" name, and maybe a logo, stuck in people's heads far in advance of the premiere of the pilot movie. Name recognition is a big thing. Small, regular doses of advertising, where you're not used to seeing advertising about a show, could, over time, cause people to remember, and be curious. Then maybe, when the TV ads. air, it'll further reinforce it, and they'll tune in.

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KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by channe:
I would love to see the trailer in movie theaters - that would totally open up a world of promotion. We are definitely jumping the gun, because it's still four months until airing; even Enterprise wasn't heavily promoting itself this early. But still...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How often is a feature film promoted in theaters far in advance of it's debut?

VERY often.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

The only OTHER spinoff series based on B5 failed. Miserably.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And WE know WHY. The fate of Rangers on Sci-Fi should differ markedly from the fate of Crusade on TNT.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

We love it, but the Gods of profit don't!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Imagine, if you will, "Enterprise" taken over to TNT, and TNT mucking with it constantly with contradictory notes.

THAT would be COMEDY. Oh, wait a minute, they only know Drama.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

There's no way to beat the Trek juggernaut, so the PR honchos at whoever decides to buy B5LR are going to have to come up with a different kind of campaign in order for it to be seen as an something different than Trek's malign little brother, if that's possible.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grassroots fan support, backed by Sci-Fi could help, and shouldn't cost much.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

They need to stop running the thing behind a standpoint that says "Look at our risk-taking captain, flying submarine and plotline in a universe filled with the new and adventurous!", which, again, seems to be Trek's major claim during this campaign.

They just need to market Rangers differently, that's all.

Don't join 'em. Beat 'em. As Lochley would say.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, Sci-Fi should concentrate on the areas where Rangers is different, and use those points in their commercials. Then we could all have fun as Paramount modified their commercials.

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KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel. http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited September 10, 2001).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Sep 10, 2001

Have we produced replies to all the points raised in the article? Are the replies in a form that the actors can use? Journalists and Star Trek fans will keep asking these questions. An argument is good for the talk show’s ratings.

I suspect that the actors will have to obtain their own trailer film. The standard B5LR talk show trailer, replies to the rip off charge and appropriate stills from Crusade. They will also need a shot or two of their character in action.

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Andrew Swallow

KoshN · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Catheryn:
So what if Enterprise and Rangers are similar, or DS9 and Babylon 5 were similar? REALITY CHECK time, it's cosmetic.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the similarities between DS9 and B5 were cosmetic. That's how I could watch DS9, not care for it (not my cup of tea), then find B5, and love it. How could I do that if they were so similar? What matters is what's done with the ideas, and that varies by who's at the helm.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Whether you like it or not, Star Trek IS quality science fiction. So what if some of the stories suck? It's production values and attention to detail is incredible.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, money can help. That's where Trek has it in spades.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Babylon 5 is quality science fiction as well. They're different, and that is one of the best compliments I can give.

No. The similarities do not concern me as a viewer, but someone who has a sincere interest in the lives of the actors behind the characters we will come to love, it does concern me. But in my honest, high and mighty opinion, when it all comes down to it, we're going to laugh about these concerns when the grand finale decends in 2006.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope they both succeed, and lend more mainstream credibility to the sci-fi genre.

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KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:

As far as the "insults to TNT" in Minbari or Vorlon in the new series, hey, JMS is the first to admit to being a grown-up fanboy.

He didn't Create these (so far as I know), but I see no reason he shouldn't find them Funny. Some of the people on the crew for Rangers were with Crusade when TNT messed up. They lost a good Job and might be forgiven for taking a little subtle revenge.

The fact that they did it in Minbari is a nice touch.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I take the whole "insults to TNT in Minbari" for what it is, a joke. JMS is just having a little fun, there, and he deserves it. No harm, no foul. Just a little in-joke for us fans.

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KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by channe:
You know, that line is explainable. Ivanova could be quipping. After all, the B5 universe could have had a show named Star Trek in its history, too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...or that she knew that Julie Musante (Shari Shattuck) was really popular?

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KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
1. Odo the changeling vs Minbari with changeling net. Changeling to my knowledge was a new term, as I first heard it from B5/DS9.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, there was that 1980 movie with George C. Scott. http://amazon.imdb.com/Title?0080516

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KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Chris Springob · Sep 11, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Maybe I missed JMS's comment on "a never-before-seen villain race" in B5:LotR. All I can go by is what JMS has said, and he's being careful about not leaking too much stuff.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a lot of plot info on TLaDiS out there now that hasn't come from JMS. There's a spoiler-filled review here
http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=9622

that mentions the new alien race (The Hand). Although I think that Dylan offered the first (indirect) confirmation that the race would "figure prominently in the new series" with his post here.

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KoshN · Sep 11, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Chris Springob:
There's a lot of plot info on TLaDiS out there now that hasn't come from JMS. There's a spoiler-filled review here
http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=9622
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, that's the one I've been avoiding, on purpose.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

that mentions the new alien race (The Hand).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"The Hand" ? Remember Ivanova's line from Sheridan's dream in Shadow Dancing (#65, Prod. #321, "You are the hand."), and what Ivanova had to say about it?

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KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

**DONOTDELETE** · Sep 11, 2001

Ship shape.

A submarine is long and thin. The Excalibur was long and thin.

I do not know what shape the Liandra is.

The new Enterprise is a Star Trek ship. It has a fat saucer on the front.

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Andrew Swallow

[This message has been edited by AndrewSwallow (edited September 13, 2001).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Sep 13, 2001

Incredible passion is obviously a pre-requisite for Babylon 5 fans!

I would never have guessed that...

There have been some very interesting arguements made.

To me, for what it matters, comparing Star Trek with Babylon 5 is like comparing apples and oranges - they are different fruit, but as Dylan Neal has said, they are in competition.

Enterprise has a head start, but the way I see it, if Enterprise does well, it can may hopefully bode well for Rangers.

Since Star Trek The Next Generation was released in the mid eighties, followed by Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine in the early ninties, the interest in Science Fiction has steadily grown.

Being hopeful, I would like to believe that any success that Enterprise has will have a good impact on Rangers.

I do see, as Dylan and others have mentioned, some disturbing parallels between both new series', but as I am sure someone has said, when the cake is eaten, each person will decide for themselves which taste they prefer!

I personally will love both.

JMS vs Berman and Bragga...? I admire them all, but in my opinion... no comp. JMS wins.

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Princess Leia (Star Wars Episode IV) "He has to choose his own path, no one can choose it for him!"

[This message has been edited by Awen (edited September 13, 2001).]

Hesperous · Sep 28, 2001

I have a post dealing with my biggest Enterprise problem, just remember, the plot was loose and flat. The FX for the buget could have been a little worse, and a little longer. I liked the way b5 did not try to blow me away with fx, but make it realistic. If LOTR is more real and less flashy, it is what I expect, and what I appreciate. Enterprise technobabbled the solution, I am sick of that. Let the personalities struggle, and leave the Tech as the setting!!! Plotline wins!!! JMS Is a writer, this Trek was pieced together.

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A_M_Swallow · Sep 28, 2001

The pockets in the uniforms sounds like it taken from Crusade episode 'Appearances and Other Deceits'.

It sounds like Enterprise boldly goes where Babylon 5 has gone before.

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Andrew Swallow

channe · Sep 29, 2001

Wow - you mean, these uniforms actually have POCKETS? Like in the REAL MILITARY? Whoo!

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Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire, the next JMS, neo-academic, President of the Unofficial Society For The Appreciation Of Captain Martel, and keeper of the Sacred Flame Of The Madrecasa.

bakana · Sep 30, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> these uniforms actually have POCKETS?
Like in the REAL MILITARY?
Whoo!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That can be misleading.

The traditional Navy Dress Blue uniform Has pockets.

But, they are rather Useless.
The breast pocket on the Jumper is off limits to anything except your ID card.
Which nobody puts there except during inspections.
Besides, even Pens don't really fit into it due to the way the jumper is cut.

The pockets on the Pants are in the Waistband.
And since they are designed so that you Don't wear a belt, the pockets are too tight to put anything into.
At least not if you want to get it Out without looking like you're scratching yourself.

The Dress White uniform is almost as bad.
It does have a Belt on the pants, but the pockets are almost the same design as on the blues.

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

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