EpDis: Deathwalker

[Cell]

So in other words, you have no actual reasons or evidence to offer for why you decided that JMS is a liar. <sarcasm> After all, none of the B5 characters ever had more than one story arc (not arch, btw), did they?</sarcasm>

Got it.

Jan

I provided reasoning, just because like usual you have your JMS blinders on and refuse to see anything that is even close to a slight against that man or at the very least accept that others have reasons for thinking the way they do isn't my problem.

Maneth has a point here that, unfortunately, got ignored in the resulting... well, "conversation" if you will.

Yes, Maneth, it is a bit of a shock to hear the resident Vorlon actually saying something clear, and not couched in mystery somehow. Perhaps he had no reason to make them reach for his meaning, or maybe Kosh just found the entire thing (the occurances in the episode) to be a waste of time and effort. His whole attitude seems to be "yea, I did it, it needed to be done, now get over it and get back to the relevant work".

Whatever the "reason", if there even is any, it was a surprisingly clear and straightforward response.

That added a lot of depth to Kosh. Instead of always being mysterious this is the first time we see the Vorlons being menacing because they have a reason to and we realize that they can do whatever they want and none of the B5 worlds can do a thing to stop them.

 

[Jan]

I provided reasoning, just because like usual you have your JMS blinders on and refuse to see anything that is even close to a slight against that man or at the very least accept that others have reasons for thinking the way they do isn't my problem.

Baloney. Trying to attack me isn't going to make your argument any stronger. JMS has admitted to too many instances where he feels that the storytelling was rough or weak for your 'reasoning' to hold water. You haven't presented any reasoning or evidence in support of your theory, just supposition.

Jan

 

[Cell]

Baloney. Trying to attack me isn't going to make your argument any stronger. JMS has admitted to too many instances where he feels that the storytelling was rough or weak for your 'reasoning' to hold water. You haven't presented any reasoning or evidence in support of your theory, just supposition.

Jan

I have presented plenty of reasoning, and as I have said it's an obvious retcon that is clear as day. I'm not the only one that feels this way so you just need to come to grip[s with the fact that others will not agree with your views on the matter. I know I have, I'm perfectly fine with people not taking my stance or believing my stance to be correct.

And I don't need to attack you, your posts speak for themselves, and not in a good way. This isn't fluffy happy land where every single thing a creator does is gold and you need to defend him at all times. Learn that some people are going to take issue with things that JMS did, the story etc., and you might be a tolerable poster. As it stands right now every time you post it's like I'm reading a presser for the "JMS is so great we should all worship him" club.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I'm sure that most here think Jan is somewhat more than a "tolerable poster."

 

[Truth_Seeker]

"JMS is so great we should all worship him" club.

I don't see the problem in that.In fact if JMS had chosen another profession none of us would be here talking about "Deathwalker".

 

[Jan]

My turn to thank you, Jade Jaguar.

Jan

 

[Cell]

I'm sure that most here think Jan is somewhat more than a "tolerable poster."

That's fine, but I'm not them. If you like her posts that's fine, but I personally like insightful posts rather than quotes from JMS, or pressers from the President of his fan club.

I don't see the problem in that.In fact if JMS had chosen another profession none of us would be here talking about "Deathwalker".

The problem isn't in looking at his works and acknowledging some of them as good or great, the problem lies in treating him or any other creator like they are a God incapable of any wrongdoing. For instance I consider Kurt Busiek the greatest comic writer ever, however I don't view him as infallible and I don't go around always challenging anyone that questions how good he is. He has written some stories that were subpar, and some stories that were average at best among his many great stories. That is my problem with the "we should all worship "so and so" attitude." Not only is it counter productive, but it's not realistic of the person's works at all.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I don't "worship him," and I don't "treat him like a god," nor do I think that is a common attitude around here, nor in evidence in this thread. You have no real evidence of a retcon, only an opinion. Strong and plentiful circumstantial evidence to the contrary has been presented, yet you deny it, on the basis that 'those who disagree (with you) idolize JMS,' an ad hominem argument.

I think most anyone here would readily agree with you, if they thought you were correct, regardless of their esteem for JMS. I know I would, and I believe Jan would. But your proofs, (or lack of same) are insufficient. You are entitled to your opinion. But, you are not entitled to certainty on a subject that can never be conclusively proven, until and unless we can actually read someone's mind.

 

[hypatia]

Well put, JJ. I've heard many opinions voiced here, but few who felt their opinion must be accepted as fact, period, or you're just [fill in the blank]. This is, quite frankly, why I stopped having such unproductive dialogs.

 

[Cell]

I don't "worship him," and I don't "treat him like a god," nor do I think that is a common attitude around here, nor in evidence in this thread. You have no real evidence of a retcon, only an opinion. Strong and plentiful circumstantial evidence to the contrary has been presented, yet you deny it, on the basis that 'those who disagree (with you) idolize JMS,' an ad hominem argument.

I presented more than just opinion, I presented evidence in a review before this one, as well as evidence in this thread. I haven't made the argument about people idolizing JMS about anyone other than Jan. I can't take her posts seriously or be bothered to care anymore about what she has to say because she comes across like a presser for JMS.

No evidence to the contrary has been presented, other than quoting what JMS said after the fact. Present actual evidence, and I would argue it, or change my mind were it good evidence.

I think most anyone here would readily agree with you, if they thought you were correct, regardless of their esteem for JMS. I know I would, and I believe Jan would. But your proofs, (or lack of same) are insufficient. You are entitled to your opinion. But, you are not entitled to certainty on a subject that can never be conclusively proven, until and unless we can actually read someone's mind.

Like I said earlier, I don't care if anyone agrees with me. I don't post my thoughts to get people to agree with me, I post my thoughts because they are my thoughts and I feel like posting them. If people agree that's fine, if not it's all the same.

I will counter your last point though, because I hate the "oh, it's just my opinion" style of posting. When I post something I believe in what I am posting, and stating it as my opinion ad nauseum or using the "IMO' line only serves to cheapen it. Whether or not it can be conclusively proven doesn't matter to me, it is something I believe and I am going to post about it like I believe it to be the truth, otherwise you end up posting nothing but "Oh, it's only opinion" when everyone knows that anything having to do with an interpretive art or subjective art is all opinion anyways.

Edit: Oh, just as an addendum, since I have a low tolerance for a certain type of person and really can't stand Jan at all, I have put her on ignore so as to not have to further inflame the situation.

 

[Jan]

That's fine, but I'm not them. If you like her posts that's fine, but I personally like insightful posts rather than quotes from JMS, or pressers from the President of his fan club.

I find that the people who play the 'worship' card are usually trying to shore up their own insubstantial viewpoints by going on the attack. In my case, what you like to characterize as 'worship' is simply considerable knowledge of the man's work, public postings and in particular, B5.

I'm a fan of JMS's, I make no secret of the fact but he has no fan club and no worshipers that I'm aware of. What that fandom means is that I'll give anything he produces a try. I certainly haven't loved everything he's ever done but the balance is tilted well on the side of things I like. As for considering him incapable of wrongdoing, that's another accusation by the ignorant. Suffice to say that when I disagree with JMS, it's actually in the group where he can see that and respond, not a forum he's not known to have ever visited.

You've chosen to take the stance that your views and interpretations as the viewer of the show are as valid or even more valid than those of the person whose vision produced B5 which is arrant, and arrogant, nonsense. For the first time ever, a TV show producer took the time to engage the fans of the show in a dialogue, telling them what he was trying to do, where he felt he succeeded and just as honestly, where he felt he failed. He's got 16+ years of credibility.

You choose to declare him a liar, saying "It's obvious" and repeating yourself over and over without adding any new data. I choose to back up my views with the public record. Sometimes at the beginning of a conversation, you make some interesting points. Unfortunately, your tendency to simply repeat points incessantly wears thin rapidly causing people to drop out of conversations.

Like now.

Jan

 

[Jade Jaguar]

:brickwall::brickwall::brickwall:

 

[KoshFan]

While usually my last word on internet arguments is admirably summed up by XKCD (http://xkcd.com/386/), I'm gonna give this one last throw, just for the fun of it.

I have presented plenty of reasoning

Let's test that theory, shall we?

The Talia as traitor was a retcon, that's the way it always came across to me. It wasn't a bad retcon mind you, but I do think JMS is being delusional by trying to claim that it was set up from the beginning, when by watching the series you can see it clearly wasn't. They were setting up for Talia to change, but not into another personality. All the mirrors and stuff like that was a nice way of setting up her eventual turn from the Corps and the life she knew to her new superpowered ways with the Vorlons. If JMS's explanation works for you that's cool, but to me it's an obvious retcon.

Exhibit A: Cell felt it was a retcon.
Exhibit B: The mirrors were a setup for something else, which didn't happen.

Exhibit A is actually an opinion and shall be stricken from the factual record. Exhibit B is... an interpretation, not actual data, and seems rooted mostly in how Cell interpreted the show. This interpretation is valid but cannot be construed to be a fact.

Follow the story, that's all one need do to see that JMS retconned the entire ulterior personality. First, mirrors do represent internal change, like Talia struggling with her identity as loyal Corps member and wanting to leave the Corps as she becomes more and more enmeshed in their abhorrent, to her, ways. That was the purpose of the entire Ivanova relationship, the run-in with the runaways Teeps, Ironheart, etc.. All of that was designed to move Talia towards the path of independence, or at the very least to the Vorlons. There was never any hint of a secondary personality, not until after Divided Loyalties and until JMS started trying to explain away all of Talia on the show as having something to do with her secondary personality.

I''m simply saying that JMS' trying to say that he intended all along for Talia to have a secondary personality or that it was always there as a failsafe is a crock. Him saying otherwise is very transparent and it serves a perfect purpose for a writer. It gives him a get out free clause, although in this case it backfires. It says, "Oh, that Talia thing wasn't abrupt, I had it planned all along just in case, so see, it works." Despite that attempt, it doesn't work, it's still abrupt and forced. It works out in the end, but that is only because of the following Lyta storyline where she takes over what was originally Talia's story.

Therein lies the biggest reason why it's an obvious retcon, from the start JMS painted the story of Talia leaving the Corps, of the internal struggle within.

Exhibit C: The mirrors were about internal struggle.
Exhibit D: Talia was moving towards the Vorlons, independence, and Ivanova.

Exhibit C is a rehash of the previously discredited Exhibit B. Exhibit D is true, but reflected an earlier arc... which, let the record show, was actually Lyta's originally, not Talia's, so bumping off Talia and bringing Lyta back restored continuity in the show, not harmed it.

In short, Cell provided us in this thread with three pieces of evidence for his opinion. One seems to be additional opinion, one is not evidence but interpretation -- which, however valid, does not stand in place of fact -- and the third is accurate but not exactly relevant, since of course Talia's arc would have gone that way, with all its attendant foreshadowing, but didn't because Thompson left. In other words, his opinion is backed up by other opinions, and does not actually constitute "reasoning" as asserted above.

Don't feel bad, Cell, it happens to all of us... and, in fact, 99% of the Human race (especially on the internet) functions in a facts-free environment all the time, so you're in very good, and very numerous, company. Just your bad luck that you've fallen in with crazy logic-lovers.

Moreover, all this doesn't actually mean that you are wrong. JMS could be lying through his teeth and you could be absolutely correct. However, going by the available evidence -- the reasoning you provided vs. the reasoning JMS provided -- and applying Occam's Razor (the simplest solution is probably right), the odds against you being justified in this are long enough to be measured in light-years.

Sincerely,
Summer Glau*



* http://xkcd.com/406/

 

[Cell]

The entire problem with your last post is that I never at any point stated that my thoughts were anything other than opinion. I believe in them to the fullest, but in the end they are the same as any argument that states it wasn't a retcon, a matter of opinion (sorry, but JMS' comments really don't matter on the subject, I never take any comments from any creator into account when arguing anything, whether it helps my argument or not).

Now, I'm not going to say, "Ooh, this is my opinion" when posting them because I feel that is counter productive since everything stated about an interpretive art is opinion. On the flip side none of the evidence presented to counter mine was anything but opinion as well. Like I said from the beginning, it's cool that you don't agree, or don't think it was a retcon for a second, but there isn't one solid piece of evidence that makes that opinion correct and mine false. That's been the case from the beginning, and I've never said differently,.

 

[Jan]

(sorry, but JMS' comments really don't matter on the subject, I never take any comments from any creator into account when arguing anything, whether it helps my argument or not).

If I hadn't been so ostentatiously put on Cell's 'ignore' list, I'd've asked why he doesn't credit the creator's word for anything to do with their show. Does he assume that it's all lies and ego stroking?

Jan

 

[Jade Jaguar]

(sorry, but JMS' comments really don't matter on the subject, I never take any comments from any creator into account when arguing anything, whether it helps my argument or not).

Ummm, well, um, okay...

:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

:wtf: :guffaw:

 

[Cell]

Film and TV is an interpretive art, what the creator has to say about their intentions matters not, it's what you interpret that matters. This is the main tenet of interpretive art in all its forms.

 

[KoshFan]

The entire problem with your last post is that I never at any point stated that my thoughts were anything other than opinion.

Hmm, you did say "reasoning" instead of evidence, didn't you? Well, in that case it may be I went in expecting evidence and got interpretation instead -- which is perfectly valid. Point taken, error acknowledged.

(sorry, but JMS' comments really don't matter on the subject, I never take any comments from any creator into account when arguing anything, whether it helps my argument or not).

Film and TV is an interpretive art, what the creator has to say about their intentions matters not, it's what you interpret that matters. This is the main tenet of interpretive art in all its forms.

But in essence everything B5-related, ever, is one giant comment by JMS. He did everything for a definite reason, it's all connected. Ignoring the creator's point of view would essentially require you to ignore what has been created. If you said that about painting, it would be up there with saying "I never take the paint into account when I look at a painting."

I really think you have been taking JMS into account, just only through the medium of B5. Which would be like reading all his nouns and verbs but refusing to read his adjectives, to employ a different simile.

Now, feel free to disagree with him -- and us -- but I really don't think you can ignore his commentary.

That said, this is a very old debate, fought over by philosophers for millenia, and I doubt we shall settle the issue here. We can keep discussing it, of course -- civilly, I hasten to add. None of us has really been kind, so let's watch that.

 

[Cell]

I have no problem at all with people that do take the creators words into account. It's a valid form of art critique, but it's not one that I follow. I can see where it is helpful and why people do follow it, but it's never appealed to me and personally I don't see as much value in that as I do in individual interpretation.

Pretty much my only problem with including creator commentary comes when you get people that can't form a thought of their own and instead reply to any question with quote after quote from the creator. This is especially prevalent among Star Wars fans, and one of the reasons I rarely if ever discuss Star Wars with actual hardcore Star Wars fans anymore.

 

[snockit]

Pretty much my only problem with including creator commentary comes when you get people that can't form a thought of their own and instead reply to any question with quote after quote from the creator. This is especially prevalent among Star Wars fans, and one of the reasons I rarely if ever discuss Star Wars with actual hardcore Star Wars fans anymore.

"Greedo shot first!"

... that one quote should be enough to make his points have some validation.

Though I don't agree with his opinions either, however, he can interpret the visual medium without any supplemental material, which is what he is doing.

Think of looking at a abstract painting. If you didn't know the title or the description, you may interpret it different, where that is a valid way to appreciate art. It is how the art speaks to us, not necessarily how the the message was given from the artist.

What matters, is that we can, and that Cell is still really enjoying the form!

S.