EpDis: Deathwalker

[Jan]

Think of looking at a abstract painting. If you didn't know the title or the description, you may interpret it different, where that is a valid way to appreciate art. It is how the art speaks to us, not necessarily how the the message was given from the artist.

I can understand that for a painting or sculpture but when it comes to a TV show if too much is open to interpretation, the writer has failed.

Anyway, with his "obvious retcon" line, Cell isn't interpretting the story, he's judging the writer.

Jan

 

[Lousy_Dodgers]

I was thinking about this episode the other day and I came to a realization. Kosh gave the answer that the younger races were not ready for immortality but the need to kill in order to produce the serum would lead to war and chaos. Thus, even if the Shadows or their allies had nothing to do with the serum, the result would be the same. Perhaps it was due to the lack of Shadow involvement that the Vorlons were willing to intervene

 

[Estelyn]

I'm not sure if this sleeping dog should be wakened, but as I'm commenting on each episode as I watch it, I do want to add a few thoughts. The ethical questions raised here are excellent, and the moral issues for Sinclair and the others on B5 are very tricky. I agree with Ambassador Kalika that the Commander's compromise solution was "fair and wise", yet it doesn't end the story. I can't help but feel with the others that the Vorlon ending was a good solution - and of course none of the others had to shoulder the responsibility for it. Very convenient!

I chuckled over Londo's comment on Sinclair's attempt to keep quiet on the situation: "Great job!"

I also found it interesting that Abbut told Talia that it wasn't good to "reflect" too much, upon which the images of herself in multiple mirrors appeared in her mind. If that was from Kosh, he must have been able to project mentally without being present, since he'd already left the area. I did like the way what seemed to be a silly situation at the beginning (with dialogues of almost Monty Pythonesque disconnectedness!) became more threatening and ominous - perhaps a parallel to the other development, where the serum that seems positive becomes a horrible thing because of the way its made.

Excellent episode!

 

[KoshFan]

Kosh was no doubt a very powerful telepath (after all, we later see him use telekinesis). What I like is how Garibaldi's line -- "the Vorlons are leery of telepaths" -- throws us off the scent. Of course they're leery of teeps because a teep might pick up on their own activities, but on the first run we assume that they aren't telepaths themselves.

 

[JoeD80]

I think with the Talia conversation there may be a little of checking on how their "weapons" are progressing. Remember they seeded the telepaths after B4 went back 1000 years to be able to fight the Shadows in the current time, so they want to see if their "doomsday weapons" as Lyta later calls herself are useful for the coming battle.

 

[KoshFan]

Also this is after "Mind War." Kosh would have been aware of Ironheart's visit and probably picked up on his gift to Talia.

 

[Alioth]

I was thinking about this episode the other day and I came to a realization. Kosh gave the answer that the younger races were not ready for immortality but the need to kill in order to produce the serum would lead to war and chaos. Thus, even if the Shadows or their allies had nothing to do with the serum, the result would be the same. Perhaps it was due to the lack of Shadow involvement that the Vorlons were willing to intervene

I took it as (we're) "not ready for immortality" because we would very likely seek it even if it meant killing for it. Not sure if Earth leadership, or the Narn or any other powers that may have been courting Jha'dur, knew that fact about the serum, yet--but once they did find that out, would that have stopped them--or any of the younger races--from proceeding with its use? I.e. I think Kosh said we were not ready for it, because we want it too badly, and would do unacceptable things for it that would defeat any noble purpose for having it to begin with. If we gain the sense of perspective that it isn't something we want that badly, then maybe we'd be a little more ready to have it (by whatever different and more benign means we develop to get it)--but there are also probably other factors that would make us still not ready....

But as for any angle with the Shadows, I too have wondered if there was some connection in the past between the Dilgar and Shadows. Some of the things Jha'dur says, like (not sure if exact quote) "it's the nature of the universe, that the superior control the inferior", practically scream Shadow doctrine, along with the whole "continuance of my work" thing. That they were such a power that it took many races banding together (that human-fostered "community") to subdue them, suggests that they may have been spacefaring during the last Shadow War... were they one of their allies in that war? It's a shame we don't know more about them, or this Dilgar War that obviously shaped a lot of recent galactic politics and Earth history. That the Dilgar rose and started "kicking anthills" before the Shadows reawakened would be a curious thing if they were in fact past affiliates; maybe the Dilgar were so arrogant as to think they could embark on galactic conquest without them, or that the Shadows would be most pleased when they came back and saw their initiative--or misinterpreted any "prophecy" they may have had about Shadow reappearance, and acted too soon in attempt to bring their "gods" back. Lots of possible speculation here.

Or maybe they were a race that simply developed that mentality without any First One coaching (although there was probably at least some behind-the-scenes cultural manipulations--both Vorlons and Shadows had those fingers in many pies). In lieu of any new TV productions, I wish the canon would continue to expand through books at least... and one of these should cover the Dilgar War and give some more insight into what that was all about and what motivated the Dilgar (not sure if there are any comics that cover this). Because that event, as so briefly described, seemed a pretty traumatic one to many of the peoples of the galaxy, and had to be significant in shaping more recent events. As it is, the Dilgar are treated too much as a one-off race for this episode (even if we only see the last one of their kind), given the scale and recentness of what they'd done to the galaxy. More historical reference to them and their war would be interesting.

 

[Alioth]

Think of looking at a abstract painting. If you didn't know the title or the description, you may interpret it different, where that is a valid way to appreciate art. It is how the art speaks to us, not necessarily how the the message was given from the artist.

Without any intention whatsoever to renew this debate, it's interesting how one of Kosh's lines from this very episode sort of ties into the issue of art interpretation: "a stroke of the brush doesn't guarantee art from the bristles." A very Vorlon quote--I take it to mean that art requires a deliberate intent and effort of the creator, that just throwing buckets of paint at a canvas doesn't make art even if something might be seen of the shapes it incidentally creates. Or something like that. A Vorlon, all about order and "correct" form, and the "who are you" of the artist, would probably interpret a lot of "modern art" as garbage....

I do think that how observers percieve the creation is a significant part of a work of art, but that creator's intent is also part of it. The harmony (or disharmony) between those views can prove very interesting, and can give the work sort of a life of its own--sort of like a child who carries part of their parentage with them, but also grows to be their own person. I think many good artists are as interested in how others will interpret their creation, as they are with what they themselves wanted to "say" with it. Some maybe even more so, maybe as a sort of "experiment".

A quibble with the terms used though: "retcon" is a word referring to a technical aspect of the work's process, not an interpretation of the work. Claiming something is a "retcon" is more analogous to claiming that someone used a specific type of brush (rather than another), than claiming the work itself means some thing. I.e. the creator (if he can remember what type of brush he used) is either lying or telling the truth when he claims he used brush x, or that he fudged a retcon rather than planned a possible trapdoor ahead of time--it would be a matter of fact (that perhaps only he knows, whether or not he's honest about it) rather than interpretation. But again, I don't wish to revive this argument that I wasn't even here for....

 

[JoeD80]

As it is, the Dilgar are treated too much as a one-off race for this episode (even if we only see the last one of their kind), given the scale and recentness of what they'd done to the galaxy. More historical reference to them and their war would be interesting.

I think the discussions in "In the Beginning" imply that the Dilgar were a pretty small power that was easy to defeat but morally right to fight. It was one of the reasons there was the arrogance from the Earth government that they could take on the Minbari without a problem.

 

[Bab5nutz]

An interesting episode, which raises many questions.

About the Dilgar sun going nova. I have no evidence for this. But what if the reason the Dilgar turned to conquest was because they knew that their sun was going nova? The Dilgar seemed to have been highly advanced technologically, and it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they knew their sun was going to go. And the Dilgar, being an aggressive, war-like people, it probably would not occur to them to ask the League of Non-Aligned Worlds if they could move onto a vacant planet. And who would want them as neighbours anyway?

 

[Sindatur]

An interesting episode, which raises many questions.

About the Dilgar sun going nova. I have no evidence for this. But what if the reason the Dilgar turned to conquest was because they knew that their sun was going nova? The Dilgar seemed to have been highly advanced technologically, and it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they knew their sun was going to go. And the Dilgar, being an aggressive, war-like people, it probably would not occur to them to ask the League of Non-Aligned Worlds if they could move onto a vacant planet. And who would want them as neighbours anyway?

Or maybe, like the Telepaths, they did ask and were refused

 

[Lennier's Tears]

"What happened to the Dilgar?" is indeed a very good question. I see it was extensively discussed in this thread and there is no consensus. Too bad, that

My other major question has not been discussed in this specific thread. What else were the Vorlons shooting at when they took out Jha'dur?? As you can tell, I agree with the "The Vorlons don't miss!" school of thought. I've talked about this with a couple of people and one of my friends dug up some stuff from other forums (or maybe even here, I don't know ) that showed JMS agreed that Vorlons wouldn't miss, and that that meant they were indeed shooting at something else. So, what's up with that?

A solid episode. I like all the stuff with the League, and the background we get on their relationship with Earth, and Earth history. Also the Vorlons being all ... Vorlon-ey. I also really like the stuff with Talia, although I would have loved to have found out more about what exactly was going on there in a later episode. Alas.

Details and things:

• There's several worker cast Minbari in the background in this episode. At least that's what they look like. It's interesting because they are never even spoken of until much later. There are definitely bits of dialog in later episode in which characters talk about the TWO castes of Minbari. I think there was some discussion elsewhere on whether there were originally only two castes planned, or if it meant that the warrior and religious castes just pretend the third caste doesn't exist. The fact that they're right there in the background leads me to believe it's the latter.
• What exactly IS "the hour of Scampering" and how did Talia figure it out? I'm guessing the details all got "emailed" to her or something.
• Everyone is so certain that that woman can't be Jha'Dur because the Dilgar war was 30 years ago and thus Jha'Dur should look older. Is everyone just intimately familiar with facts on Dilgar biology, like average lifespan and that sort of thing? Or is it just that all the younger races are pretty similar in terms of lifespan and aging, and thus one can make certain assumptions?
• "I can't match her species type" "Try the xenobiogenic files" ... What were you trying before?
• I like the look of that Dilgar uniform but I can't but wonder at what an amazing coincidence it is that there is an alien species out there who just so happen to have a uniform tradition full of elements that can also be found in European military uniform history. Remarkable
• I love that bit where Jha'dur tells Sinclair that the Windswords talk about him and that he has a hole in his mind. I also really dig the warrior caste outfits, as I'm sure I've mentioned a few times.
• Not so crazy about Jha'dur's evil laugh.
• The Narn and the Centauri both collaborated with the Dilgar. Because of course they did.
• This was mentioned in the very first comment in this thread, but what's the deal with the Ipsha(?)? When those Vree ships come out of the jumpgate along with that .. other ship, my response is still "wait, who are they?"

 

[Springer]

Personally I don't think there's anything in the Vorlons missing the first time other than they missed the first time. I checked the Other Voices script book and there is no mention in the script about the Vorlon ship missing (interestingly, the script calls the Vorlon ship a 'War Wing', maybe they had a different type of ship in mind?) so it might just have been something added in by the FX team. Even if they had been shooting at something else, nothing exploded so presumably whatever they were aiming at, they missed!

The Deathwalker script also calls those Non-Aligned aliens 'Iksha', apparently fish-like in appearance with scales. I kinda liked their ship, and the Vree saucers, it was a shame we didn't see that exact type of Vree ship in the battles with the Shadows along with the other Vree saucers, just to maintain continuity more than anything else. Same with the old Narn cruisers from season 1.

 

[Lennier's Tears]

Ah. If it's not in the script then it probably doesn't mean anything. I feel sort of disappointed ... As in, I felt like it was some great mystery that would eventually be solved, but now there is no mystery

 

[Wulf]

As in, I felt like it was some great mystery that would eventually be solved, but now there is no mystery

The shot actually traveled in that trajectory for another million years and struck Jason Ironheart beyond the Rim. The Vorlons play the long game, and humanity wasn't ready.... =]

 

[Lennier's Tears]

Now I feel bad for Jason Ironheart

 

[Springer]

Ah. If it's not in the script then it probably doesn't mean anything. I feel sort of disappointed ... As in, I felt like it was some great mystery that would eventually be solved, but now there is no mystery

The one caveat is that it's always possible that it was something JMS asked to be added in after the script was written. It could also have been a plot point that was forgotten after Michael O'Hare left and the story headed in a different direction. There was mention of the Windswords having sheltered Jha'Dur, and they were meant to play a big role in the original story, I think. Maybe they had a cloaked ship nearby? But then surely we'd have seen the explosion. Nah, I reckon they just missed. Actually, I kinda like the fact that they miss - there's a neat juxtaposition there, that the Vorlons present themselves as hugely advanced and god-like, and take it upon themselves to play god and kill Jha'Dur, and yet at the same time they show themselves to be imperfect by missing. Hints at a chink in their armour.

 

[hypatia]

When this debate came up a long time ago, I admit I just assumed the special effects team did the usual "Star Trek" kind of graphic for it.

But I love the Jason Ironheart theory. :thumbsup:

 

[Moonface]

I'm about to make the recap of Deathwalker. Again, please help me with my questions:

It's about the Telepaths:
The Vorlons made the Telepaths as weapons against the shadows, but in this episode we are told, that the Vorlons are cautious with Telepaths. Why would they? A theory mentioned in this thread is that they are just checking on their weapons. but then why are they known to be cautious about teeps in general.

Additionally: this does weave into the first question, but has nothing to do with this episode, so sorry for going off the rails here:
Didn't the shadows use Telepaths as pilots? How does that work, if Telepaths where meant to be the weapon against them??

 

[Springer]

That's a good point about the Vorlons being wary of telepaths. Assuming that it's not a plot point that went away after the story changed direction with Michael O'Hare's departure, I can think of two in-universe reasons. One might be that a telepath might be able to scan a Vorlon and learn something about their nature that they want to keep secret. Scanning Kosh certainly had an effect on Lyta. Second, if we are to take it as just meaning they were wary of human telepaths, the Vorlons would have known that Psi Corps was working with the Shadows, and been wary of them for that reason.

I think the Shadows used telepaths because one telepath pilot could block the telepathic signal of another telepath trying to disable the ship.