EpDis: In The Beginning

[Jade Jaguar]

Well, yes, it had been going on before him, but it was still on-going when he was alive. So, although they had antagonized his race in the "distant past," they had also done it until recently. The memories were fresh enough to G'Kar.

 

[Elipsis]

It went on for 100 years, didn't it?

 

[GKarsEye]

Re-watched this last night. Something bothered me: Delenn regrets the war with humans shortly after it starts and wants to stop it but can't because the Grey Council wouldn't agree. At the same time they don't act against the Shadows because they don't know that the Vorlons initiated contact with any Minbari.

Why didn't Delenn just show the Grey Council that Vorlons were there? Yeah, the Vorlons move secretly and slowly, I get it, but if the Vorlons and Delenn and the Rangers, or at least their leader, new the humans were necessary to fight the Shadows, that wasn't important enough to show the Council that Vorlons were there?

Sure it would have looked odd to stop the war suddenly, but that's what happened anyway at the line.

 

[Jan]

As we learned though, the Rangers at that time weren't powerful and were underfunded, barely being maintained at all out of respect for their history. We don't know why the Vorlons wouldn't allow Dukhat or Delenn to reveal their presence but Delenn, as the junior member and Lenonn of the unpopular Anla-Shok were definitely not powerful enough to sway the Grey Council.

Jan

 

[fisheggs]

The Vorlons also "knew" that B4 and Valen were integral to stopping the earlier Shadow war.

 

[GKarsEye]

As we learned though, the Rangers at that time weren't powerful and were underfunded, barely being maintained at all out of respect for their history. We don't know why the Vorlons wouldn't allow Dukhat or Delenn to reveal their presence but Delenn, as the junior member and Lenonn of the unpopular Anla-Shok were definitely not powerful enough to sway the Grey Council.

Jan

Right but the reputation of Lenonn and/or the Rangers or any of that stuff wouldn't matter if the Council just saw the Vorlons. One of them pretty much said that exact thing when Lenonn tried to convince them to prepare for the Shadows: show us a Vorlon and we'll believe you. Of course the whole time Dukhat was actually dealing w/ Vorlons.

Eh... I guess Valen must've told the Vorlons to do exactly what they did, let the Earth-Minbari war proceed and the Battle of the Line happen, etc. He probably told them the war would happen so the Vorlons were totally comfortably with the near extinction of the key race needed to defeat the Shadows.

 

[Sindatur]

Right but the reputation of Lenonn and/or the Rangers or any of that stuff wouldn't matter if the Council just saw the Vorlons. One of them pretty much said that exact thing when Lenonn tried to convince them to prepare for the Shadows: show us a Vorlon and we'll believe you. Of course the whole time Dukhat was actually dealing w/ Vorlons.

Eh... I guess Valen must've told the Vorlons to do exactly what they did, let the Earth-Minbari war proceed and the Battle of the Line happen, etc. He probably told them the war would happen so the Vorlons were totally comfortably with the near extinction of the key race needed to defeat the Shadows.

I think that's exactly it, the war needed to happen, in order for Delenn to become the person she became, and the war needed to happen in order to put Sinclair in the position to be a Minbari (mentally) and to ultimately become Valen.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Without the Earth-Minbari War the Babylon stations would not have been built.

 

[Galahad]

I don't disagree but it's interesting to not the conflict in Sinclair/Valen on this issue.

He knows it is necessary yet still takes action to divert it on at least one occasion... (in a sequence in the comic "In Valen's Name", Valen tries to pass on a written message for Delenn in the future that will prevent the war... and is silently scolded by one of the vorlons).

I kind of wonder who played the stronger role there... Valen or the vorlons?

Kosh had touched Sinclair's mind and probably knew his memories. If the vorlons shared information telepathically, it may have been they who insisted on sticking to history.

Heck it slides nicely in with the whole "order above all" agenda.

Perhaps the vorlons don't subscribe to branch theory... or perhaps they "fear" it because it leads to an unpredictable more chaotic future (by which i mean thgat events cannot be predicted or controlled).

 

[GKarsEye]

I suppose it would be the case that, unlike Sheridan and eventually Delenn, Sinclair never came to the conclusion that the Vorlons could be as much of a problem as the Shadows and never lost the conviction that they must be obeyed.

 

[KoshFan]

In "To Dream in the City of Sorrows," Sinclair is quite suspicious of Ulkesh, and as we see him drafting his famous message to Garibaldi, he carefully phrases his "Stay close to the Vorlon" line on the principles of "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

Did Sinclair know Kosh was dead? There were broad hints they were close, in Sinclair's role as Valen, and he may have trusted Kosh a great deal; if he didn't know Kosh was dead (and the Army of Light was playing it very close to the chest) then he might have realized that the Vorlons would run wild without Kosh's moderating influence, but felt Kosh would keep them in line and thus gave no warnings.

 

[Galahad]

I think he did know Kosh was dead. I think that is how Kosh knew beyond a shadow of a doubt (pardon the pun) that his number was up... From finding out through his link to Valen 1000 years earlier.

 

[GKarsEye]

If Valen wouldn't let future Minbari know about the war with humans in order to preserve history as he knew it, then it stands to reason he also wouldn't let Kosh know about his death.

 

[Crusader]

Im just now rewatching all of B5. And wacthing this again certain things jump out at me. I kind understand, wanting to do a feature on the Earth-Minbari war but i think they may have missed the mark on this one. There was no real emphasis on SInclair's role, though i understand Michael O'Hare wasn't available for filming, which may explain that. But other things don't sit right, like Sheridan and Franklin going on that mission for peace. Especially as early on in season 2 there is no recognition between the characters, i believe frnaklin even said at one point "I havent seen much of him, but what i have seen i like". It just seems to me this one is trying to hard, leading to a few continuity errors.

And the bit at the end of the film linking this to the War Without End episode, why and how had Sheridan and Delenn been captured by the Centauri?

 

[Jan]

The bit at the end shows when Sheridan 'time flashed' into his older self and he and Delenn were captured on Centauri Prime while trying to rescue their son, David. The time that he flashed into was when David was sixteen years old and under control of the 'keeper' that Londo had left for him in the urn. This is covered in more detail in the Centauri trilogy of books.

Jan

 

[KoshFan]

To the first point, we don't actually see Franklin and Sheridan meet in Season 2... and they wouldn't be apt to talk about a secret mission. But Franklin would, of course, like a peace mission -- so when he says that he's liked what he's seen of Sheridan, that actually computes. Yeah, it's mostly a retcon, but whaddya gonna do?

Delenn and Sheridan being captured is covered in the Centauri Prime trilogy of books. That's actually not a retcon, since JMS knew how it was going to play out, wrote it into both War Without End and In the Beginning, and finally handed the story off to the books' author to finally set down on paper.

EDIT: I'd have to get up real early in the morning to beat Jan to an explanation...

 

[Jan]

EDIT: I'd have to get up real early in the morning to beat Jan to an explanation...

Looks like it was just a matter of seconds, though! Anyway, I didn't deal with the Franklin issue and you did so yours was more complete.

Jan

 

[Crusader]

well thank you both for your replies.

 

[vacantlook]

Despite the short specific moments of the events we see in "War Without End" and "In The Beginning", I'd really like to see the entire of the story of what happens on Centauri Prime in the Centauri novel trilogy. I've read them, and liked them (way more than I did the techno-mage trilogy), but I'd still love to see them fully visually depicted.

 

[butlerd]

It was really quite a good movie and definitely the best out of all of them- though I liked "Call To Arms" a lot too. The only major problem that I had with it- and this goes for the Star Wars prequels as well- is that it put some of the major characters together in a contrived manner that defied plausibility when the series hadn't established the background for their prior interaction. If Sheridan, Franklin, and G'Kar had exhibited some previous familiarity with each other when Sheridan came aboard B5 in S2, their interaction with each other during the E-M war wouldn't have seemed so contrived. Also, I thought it was wierd that the Soul Hunter scene from S4's flashback was axed out the scene with Dukhat right before his death. That being said, it was still an interesting chronicle of the E-M war that does a good job tying together the major characters' back stories as referenced in the series. I also really liked how Londo narrated the story and the end when we find out when Londo is telling the story- namely right before his *meeting* with Sheridan and Delenn- previously seen in "War Without End" and before his and G'Kar's death.