EpDis: The Legend of the Rangers

[KoshN]

To comment on your arguments: I do not care for other people's opinion so much as others might do, so I don't care what's in last place.

I was going for more of a consensus, i.e. not just my opinion but that of hundreds or thousands of others.

Craziness, craziness!
People voting LotR 'A', and In The Beginning 'F'! Are we in Bizzaro-world or something? Me am no confused!

I can't believe ItB has more 'Failure' votes than LotR, even if one of them was admitted as a joke!

Yeah, things are 180 degrees out of phase alright.

I think the figure that really says it all is:
Babylon 5: Arithmetic mean = 8.8 (1,605 votes)

I think that's about right - somehow none of the movies seemed to manage to rise as high as the standards that had already been set within the series itself. Partly I think it may just be that they came too late in the cycle - remember that with the exception of the Gathering, all of them were filmed after Sleeping in Light, and after the season 5 pickup, at which point B5 arguably didn't have anything left to prove.

And that JMS is better in loooong form storytelling, series over the course of years, not movies, at least as far as B5 is concerned. Maybe it's that as B5 fans, we're used to the long story and the short, encapsulated story of a movie in the B5 universe just doesn't do it for us anymore.

It's SciFi channel's show. All their "Straight to DVD" stuff ends up playing on the network.

Yeah .. since they've paid for it already, why wouldn't they show it.

The Sci-Fi Channel itself is financing the Stargate SG-1 movies? That's why I asked if it was their reaction to fan uproar over the cancellation (like The Peacekeeper Wars was to Farscape), but nobody responded. I thoiught The Sci-Fi Channel just cancelled and was done with SG-1, and maybe NBC/Universal (the parent company) was coming through with money for the movies.

Stargate: Continuum (2008) (TV)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0929629/
Company credits:
Production Companies
Stargate SG-1 Production (II) Inc.
Distributors
Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (MGM) (2007) (USA) (DVD)
Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (MGM) (2007) (USA) (all media)

Stargate: The Ark of Truth (2008) (TV)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0942903/
Company credits:
Production Companies
Kawoosh! Productions VII
MGM Home Entertainment

...but since it's mentioned as "TV," I guess it'll be on The Sci-Fi Channel and it'll get added to the list of distributors.

And as far as the ItB stretching credulity to breaking point, I can see where that comes from but the problem is ItB is already loaded down with characters, and adding more would only confuse things ... not to mention probably stretch the budget to breaking point.

I am prepared to forgive the stretching because in all other respects I think it is a great piece of work.

I see the stretching credulity as a minor problem as far as ItB is concerned.

And to get back on topic. LotR had some good ideas that were significantly undercooked, precisely because it was a backdoor pilot. If it had gone to series and these ideas had had the chance to be explored more fully then I think the movie would be looked back at more fondly. Sure it had some silly ones (the weapons thing!) but that would undoubtedly have disappeared come a series ... surely!

That's the problem. JMS has to learn to come out of the box and make s damned strong standalone movie, not banking on being able to fix the problems in the future, because if the problems stand out, bigtime, in the pilot, there's a good chance that there will BE no future. That's why I'm nervous when it comes to our banking the future of all things B5 on a single movie (TV or feature). That's not his strong suit.

Unfortunately I never saw The Gathering as a standalone as it wasn't shown on UKTV until well into the run (possibly between S1 and S2 if memory serves). If I had, I am not convinced I would have much higher an opinion of it than I do of LotR. The Gathering (original version) is great in the context of leading into the series, but as a standalone it is fairly forgettable ,,, but without anything jaw-droppingly stupid.

Key words: ....but without anything jaw-droppingly stupid.
TLaDiS: "We do not retreat for any reason." a.k.a. Suicide as a matter of policy.
TLaDiS: the weapons system
TLaDiS: the idiotic, bad guy, flunkies.

The only thing that comes close to jaw-droppingly stupid in The Gathering, was the "zoo" scene (which was cut for the TNT version).

 

[Galahad]

The only thing that comes close to jaw-droppingly stupid in The Gathering, was the "zoo" scene (which was cut for the TNT version).

And at a push... frictionless Carnellian bedsheets.

Man am I glad that B5 didn't waste too much time inventing unseen races who provide gimicky technology. the Carnellian bedsheets wer one... but they didn't go on ad infinitum.

Presumable "frictionless" was an exaggeration if people weren't to be floating out of their beds and landing smack on the floor every night.

 

[Telepath]

JMS has to learn to come out of the box and make s damned strong standalone movie, not banking on being able to fix the problems in the future, because if the problems stand out, bigtime, in the pilot, there's a good chance that there will BE no future. That's why I'm nervous when it comes to our banking the future of all things B5 on a single movie (TV or feature). That's not his strong suit.

That's true. As you say, JMS is great at long-term stories involving character changes and building tension.

Concerning LotR, the rule "never retreat from battle" is stupid alright, but it has occurred on earth in various traditions, and it's JMS' universe after all. Yet I do not think Sinclair would have created a rule as absurd as that... perhaps Minbari tradition corrupted his teachings, it happens (it already happened in the first war against the shadows, with that radical group mentioned In Valen's Name... I forgot its name). [EDIT: I seem to have forgot that Delenn was Entil'Zha for some time then... she could have changed such a rule. As things stand, it really seems stupid enough. Even suggesting that such a rule might make an enemy think twice before engaging ranger ships is a poor explanation, so... you're right. Not very logical.]

The weapons system: ditto. It's crap.

The bad guys: What was wrong about them? That they looked like executioners? I think they were hooded and their voice was modulated because there was not much terror underneath. I think there was a lot of fake involved... Sad that there was no series.

Well, tastes are different (and hundreds and thousands of different tastes won't change mine ) But since I now see your point with some obvious flaws of LotR, I can understand why you would classify it as a failure. Yet I still think that the merits outweigh the flaws - and I still like it in comparison to other B5 feature films.

 

[Recoil]

Well, they cancelled SG-1, so after these last 10 episodes (205-214) air, all that's left is SG-A of the Stargate franchise on The Sci-Fi Channel.

You can't count that against them. That show was on the air for TEN YEARS. I don't think I have ever seen a Sci-Fi show run close to that long (in the US, so hold off on the Doctor Who stuff please).


And frankly, they should have pulled the plug a while ago. Their series "reboot" with the new enemy and new team isn't working as well as it should. Hell, it took them a long time to go almost no where with their first enemy. The show as a whole never really impressed me that much, so I was very surprised it lasted 10 seasons.

Can't knock SciFi channel for cancelling SG1 though, it had more than its run, and there are possibly a couple movies to come. Also, Stargate Atlantis (which is MUCH better IMO) is still running strong.

But Kirbu is right. Back when Rangers aired, SciFi wanted to get away from Aliens and Sci Fi. Well gee whiz. When they got back to their roots their ratings went up again. Imagine that!

 

[Legan]

The Scifi channel deserves the bad rep. Stargate SG-1 was cancelled prematurely. The Ori story arc should have lasted at least three seasons. Also, scifi canceled 'farscape' after season 4 after they declared an unprecedented 2-year renewal after season 3. They flat-out reneged, lied, cheated...whatever you want to call it. Their judgment is incredibly poor regarding programing.

Legend of the Rangers was a good 'concept' that was badly executed. I was disappointed with the filming and the shallow story. It was like they rushed a good core idea but didn't care to fill it out or interweave it into the B5 canon. The weapons system wasn't well thought. A virtual interface is a good idea, but someone squirming around against a green screen then showing the ship shooting doesn't cut it. There has to be a correlation between the gunner's movements and the weapons fire. There was absolutely none.

As for the Hand, it felt like a copout rather than an extention of the B5 story. The Ori in stargate made sense, the Hand didn't. I like B5 and the rangers are a good, no, great platform for a series, but somewhere along the line it got reallllllllllly screwed up.

Oh, and stargate didn't originate at scifi. It came from showtime after a five-year run there. Scifi has only had it for five seasons.

 

[KoshN]

What? I did a big detailed reply to Galahad, Telepath and Recoil, and it's "Poof!" gone????? It was there at around Noon when I left.

 

[Recoil]

"We live for The One, we die for The One, but we don't die stupidly"

F-

 

[hypatia]

I have to confess, that line made me cringe when I heard it.

Reminds me a bit, now, of a rather notable line from another film:
"Because all you of Earth are idiots. Stupid! Stupid!"

 

[KoshN]

"We live for The One, we die for The One, but we don't die stupidly"

F-

And that's one of the better lines from TLaDiS.

 

[KoshN]

And at a push... frictionless Carnellian bedsheets.

Man am I glad that B5 didn't waste too much time inventing unseen races who provide gimicky technology. the Carnellian bedsheets wer one... but they didn't go on ad infinitum.

Presumable "frictionless" was an exaggeration if people weren't to be floating out of their beds and landing smack on the floor every night.

Oh, it was a throwaway line. No big deal.

 

[KoshN]

That's true. As you say, JMS is great at long-term stories involving character changes and building tension.

Concerning LotR, the rule "never retreat from battle" is stupid alright, but it has occurred on earth in various traditions,

Not as a matter of policy. Maybe for a specific battle, but not as a standard method of operations.

and it's JMS' universe after all. Yet I do not think Sinclair would have created a rule as absurd as that... perhaps Minbari tradition corrupted his teachings, it happens (it already happened in the first war against the shadows, with that radical group mentioned In Valen's Name... I forgot its name). [EDIT: I seem to have forgot that Delenn was Entil'Zha for some time then... she could have changed such a rule. As things stand, it really seems stupid enough. Even suggesting that such a rule might make an enemy think twice before engaging ranger ships is a poor explanation, so... you're right. Not very logical.]

Having a policy of "We never retreat for any reason." is idiotic, especially when you're stretched thin on personnel (young kids in relatively high positions, e.g. ship captains) and resources (e.g. Whitestars), is idiotic, and Delenn is no idiot.

The bad guys: What was wrong about them?

They were stupid (required for the plot to work). They passed many chances to destroy the Liandra (but then the story would have been over.). They got suckered over and over again. Not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

That they looked like executioners? I think they were hooded and their voice was modulated

No, that part worked OK.

 

[KoshN]

You can't count that against them.

I'm not counting it against anybody. I was just saying that Sci-Fi cancelled SG-1, so soon all there will be is SG-A. I don't think that qualifies as "numerous Stargates" (shows not gates).

And frankly, they should have pulled the plug a while ago. Their series "reboot" with the new enemy and new team isn't working as well as it should.

I think it's going fine. I've watched SG-1 Seasons 1 thru 9. I haven't had The Sci-Fi Channel since Dec. 2003, when Comcast (Pittsburgh, PA) moved the channel from Extended Basic to Digital, so I've watched since then via the DVD sets. I've come to accept both Ben Browder and Claudia Black in SG-1 , and am looking forward to the SG-1 Season 10 DVD Set coming out on July 24th.

Hell, it took them a long time to go almost no where with their first enemy. The show as a whole never really impressed me that much, so I was very surprised it lasted 10 seasons.

I'm not surprised. They had and have an excellent cast and a very accessible show (easy to step into).

Can't knock SciFi channel for cancelling SG1 though, it had more than its run, and there are possibly a couple movies to come.

I'm not knocking anybody. I'm just stating it as a fact. The Sci-Fi Channel cancelled SG-1, and so there soon will be only SG-A left, and that hardly counts as "numerous Stargates" (darth librarian's words).

Also, Stargate Atlantis (which is MUCH better IMO) is still running strong.

I've seen SG-1 Seasons 1 thru 9, and the pilot episode of SG-A. Still haven't bought or rented the SG-A DVD Season Sets. I wasn't all that impressed with SG-A, though I'm happy to hear that Carter (Amanda Tapping) is going over to SG-A. I was disappointed that Jessica Steen did not continue in the role of Dr. Weir. I prefer Jessica Steen to Torri Higginson.

 

[Legan]

I prefer Jessica Steen to Torri Higginson.

An actor change for the same character is never a good thing, but Torri is definitely hotter than Jessica. No complaints there.

 

[KoshN]

An actor change for the same character is never a good thing, but Torri is definitely hotter than Jessica. No complaints there.

How long has it been since you got your eyes checked? You need to see an optometrist/opthamologist. Torri Higginson reminds me of "Number 1" (played by Majel Barrett) from the Star Trek pilot, i.e. not hot at all. Jessica's cute.

 

[Recoil]

I wasn't all that impressed with SG-A, though I'm happy to hear that Carter (Amanda Tapping) is going over to SG-A. I was disappointed that Jessica Steen did not continue in the role of Dr. Weir. I prefer Jessica Steen to Torri Higginson.

I think having Carter over there could make things interesting, but to me its a bit of a cop-out. The show is great on its own, no need to keep bleeding SG1 people into it.

And Jessica Steen was only "Dr Weir" for like, one episode, maybe two, in SG1. The very next SG1 season Torri jumped in her place and obviously made the transition to SG-A. Frankly, I think Torri was better from Day 1. I always liked her in that role over Jessica.

(and while it doesn't directly relate to that opinion, I think Torri is better looking too. )

 

[KoshN]

I think having Carter over there could make things interesting, but to me its a bit of a cop-out. The show is great on its own, no need to keep bleeding SG1 people into it.

I don't care, because I like seeing Carter.

And Jessica Steen was only "Dr Weir" for like, one episode, maybe two, in SG1. The very next SG1 season Torri jumped in her place and obviously made the transition to SG-A. Frankly, I think Torri was better from Day 1. I always liked her in that role over Jessica.

(and while it doesn't directly relate to that opinion, I think Torri is better looking too. )

Oh come on! I think some of you just like disagreeing with me, regardless of how you actually feel.

Gotta admit Torri doesn't look bad here:

I just realized we've strayed waaaaay off topic.

 

[Recoil]

Dude, seriously. I liked Torri in that role better than Jessica Steen from the start. No joke.

 

[KoshN]

Would have preferred to do this as an Edit, but I guess that time has passed.

Not as a matter of policy. Maybe for a specific battle, but not as a standard method of operations.

Having a policy of "We never retreat for any reason." is idiotic, especially when you're stretched thin on personnel (young kids in relatively high positions, e.g. ship captains) and resources (e.g. Whitestars), is idiotic, and Delenn is no idiot.

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-16471
Bear in mind that there were only ever about a hundred, maybe a hundred and fifty whitestars built during the Shadow War. A LOT of those got wiped out during said war, so now you've got maybe 80 or so. You conserve your best ships for big jobs, you don't have them doing this kind of grunt work.



http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-16472
>Trained and experienced officers were in VERY
>short supply.

Exactly, and after the shadow war, a lot of higher ranking/experienced rangers were dead, leading to getting promoted earlier.

Also, the Liandra isn't like the Enterprise, it's more like a PT boat, and there's a huge difference between the captain of a PT boat and a captain of the John F. Kennedy, though both are technically captains on their vessels.
.
.
.

 

[RMcD]

I agree that it's stupid, but just to play devil's advocate, maybe the policy of never retreating for any reason has migrated over from the Minbari warrior caste and hasn't yet been revised for the current state of affairs?

Where you have one third of a planet's population devoted to training and arming for war, and for most of their history used to enjoying total technological superiority, the idea of tactically retreating from combat might actually be a bit of a moot point, since your military resources are never exactly stretched, you have little chance of being killed, and there are plenty more warm bodies where you came from, all fully trained already.

Now if we assume that the Rangers recruit some of their members from the warrior caste, they're going to need to appear at least as fanatical and probably even more nuts just to distinguish themselves. In fact they're a bit like the Crusader Knights - their job is to throw themselves at the enemy in a religious frenzy. Seeing them get slaughtered for the rightness of their cause is okay, seeing them in retreat could break the morale of the army behind them. Seeing a lot of expensive military hardware go down with them is probably regrettable, but ultimately that's a problem for the accountants.

Actually I think that's two separate points.

 

[fisheggs]

This was a "D" from me, mainly because I expected much more than was given, saved only because of G'Kar ( Andreas). While I recall some roots on the "never retreat" idiocy in the episode on "terror', the ranger who got beat up and had to go after the "bad guys", it was still stupid, IMHO.

I also really hated the main character to be named David: I'd reserve that name for David Sheridan, personal foible.