Firefly/Serenity from the perspective of a "Feminist."

[vacantlook]

Personally, I was delighted that Joss had a happily married couple as main characters in this show. Far too few of those in TV in general and SF in particular. Also struck me that Wash was unlikely to be able to force Zoe to do much of anything that she didn't want to.

I don't remember if it was in one of the episode commentaries or something I read online or what, but I remember hearing/reading that Joss had to kind of fight with the studio to be allowed to have Wash and Zoe married. The studio tried to say it wasn't realistic or marriage wouldn't be entertaining or something another equally stupid.

I cannot believe that someone can watch a show featuring characters that were explicitly military in origin (Mal and Zoe) where one had previously been the others commanding officer and was now captain of the ship on which she served, and take such huge offense that she would call the captain "Sir" and follow his orders. Does she have the same problem with Harry Kim and Janeway, or is that OK because it's the woman giving the orders?

I am obviously missing something here ... or maybe she is?

My guess is that it's she that's missing something, as in a brain... sorry, I digress. Truly though, it sounds like she went into watching Firefly with such a chip on her shoulder that my guess is that she just didn't pay attention. She probably put the DVD in to watch and then went and did something else only popping her attention in at isolated moments as if only watching some of it would give her the same as if she watched all of it.

 

[hypatia]

I personally guess that most models are not pretty (I don't just mean too thin, but also not particularly pretty) because designers don't want the girl to distract from the clothes. Victoria Secret is an exception because they're selling an idea more than specific designs (thus Adriana Lima).

I asked someone once, who was really into fashion (actually read up on it and everything she could to learn more). She said models are chosen for their frames because clothes look better hanging from a thin frame. Like a clothes hanger.

That explains a lot. What designers are looking for is a female with a body most like a clothes hanger.

 

[hypatia]

Truly though, it sounds like she went into watching Firefly with such a chip on her shoulder that my guess is that she just didn't pay attention. She probably put the DVD in to watch and then went and did something else only popping her attention in at isolated moments as if only watching some of it would give her the same as if she watched all of it.

It is true that if you just aren't in the mood for something, it can look terrible to you that day. Watch it a month earlier or later and it's brilliant. I've done that far too often myself.

I don't usually go into a show actively trying to hate it, though. If I'm that much against watching something, I break out a book and read while others watch. When I'm accused of being antisocial (i.e. my family during forced sports-watching-during-holiday-times) I just point out that I could leave the room entirely.

Firefly just frustrates me. I'm sick to death of getting into a series that is immediately axed. And we sci-fi fans see far too much of that with good, quality shows with actual characters and promising (if not initially brilliant) scripts. That's the main reason I didn't go head-over-heels for it. It's hard watching something that you know was almost immediately doomed to cancellation.

 

[GKarsEye]

I asked someone once, who was really into fashion (actually read up on it and everything she could to learn more). She said models are chosen for their frames because clothes look better hanging from a thin frame. Like a clothes hanger.

That explains a lot. What designers are looking for is a female with a body most like a clothes hanger.

See, this is why I could never get into fashion. Wouldn't you want clothes to look better on more human-looking humans?

I do, by the way, also object to people's prejudices against skinny women, assuming they're anorexic or whatever. Some people do have a naturally quick metabolism and small frames.

 

[Alluveal]

I personally guess that most models are not pretty (I don't just mean too thin, but also not particularly pretty) because designers don't want the girl to distract from the clothes. Victoria Secret is an exception because they're selling an idea more than specific designs (thus Adriana Lima).

Bingo, and they don't want a girl with boobs or an ass because they want these models to look like walking clothes hangers, so that you'll look at the style and the way they hang as opposed to anything attractive on the model.

And judging someone because of their weight (whether too fat OR thin) just isn't cool, imho. People are built differently. Some go too thin, some go too fat, but we can't take that perfect butt with us when we die.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

... but we can't take that perfect butt with us when we die.

Actually, we do. It just doesn't do us any good.

 

[Recoil]

And in both cases, before I could even get the question out, she confirmed that yes, they are as gorgeous in real life as they look on the screen.

I remember you making that post and that very comment, and wishing I worked at Starbucks in Manhattan.

 

[hypatia]

Bingo, and they don't want a girl with boobs or an ass because they want these models to look like walking clothes hangers, so that you'll look at the style and the way they hang as opposed to anything attractive on the model.

Also, when you are clothes shopping, how do you first see an outfit? On a hanger, usually. Only top designs are put on the models in the window.

As far as people being prejudiced against the naturally super-skinny, usually you can tell when someone is naturally that way and when it's starvation/smoking/lack of muscle that gives the impression. At least I think the "trained eye" can. A friend of mine could. She said that you look at how the bones in the face are, and the like.

Anyway, she seemed to be able to tell (or thought she could) when someone was naturally that way and when she was being unhealthy to create the image. The second type looked "unbalanced" to her.

And Alluveal, I didn't mean anything personal about the makeup comment. I simply was comparing men to women in this respect (makeup, hair, etc.) How many men would work half an hour a day on their face before feeling alright about going out the door? Or spend twice as much on clothes than they do? Or wear shoes that are almost literally killing you with pain, because they like how their legs look in them?

In any event, about the Firefly/Serenity subject: I do need to watch them some day, despite knowing this story went no further. Just look at it as a movie, or series of movies instead of a potential series. I was under the impression that the show was a bit sardonic about everything. Could some women see the characterization of women in it, and think it is negative for that reason? I had the impression the show was fairly good about having a fairly decent variety of characters, female included (though I have heard someone complain the characterizations were a bit stereotypical for modern sci-fi).

 

[Alluveal]

No offense taken! I love my make-up, but I go out a lot without it. I don't need it, but I enjoy using it for special occasions or when I go out to dinner, etc. I know women who actually sleep in their make-up and I just have never gotten that--they have to look perfect for their spouse.

 

[GKarsEye]

As far as people being prejudiced against the naturally super-skinny, usually you can tell when someone is naturally that way and when it's starvation/smoking/lack of muscle that gives the impression. At least I think the "trained eye" can. A friend of mine could. She said that you look at how the bones in the face are, and the like.

Some people think they're better at judging others than they are. I know people who claim they can look at the shape of a pregnant woman's belly and predict the gender. Like most people, they trump up the successful predictions, wave away the false ones, and claim victory despite the statistically predicted 50% hit rate.

I remember when this "too skinny" nonsense reached critical mass back when Ally McBeal was a big deal. All the junk entertainment press and Hollywood gossip-mongers kept talking about her alleged anorexia, when in fact- yes, she was just naturally skinny.

Who is anyone to look at anyone else and decide who's "healthy?"

Here's the deal- if someone is actually very healthy, than that person is boring, so regardless of what you do there's a sacrifice. Let people ruin themselves as they see fit.

 

[hypatia]

I've heard that, and it blows my mind.

Isn't that a bit unhealthy for the skin, too? Wow, talk about being insecure.

I had my phase with makeup. It can be fun, once you learn a few tricks. But I'm just literally too lazy to care about it these days. I had to learn how to put on stage makeup for when I acted in highschool and college, and that too will turn anyone off makeup very quickly, I think. Well no, not true, but it was true for me.

It took so long, and so many washings to get it all off at the end of the night. I know my face can be improved greatly with makeup (I have rather sunken eyes, eyelashes and eyebrows that are almost invisible and bad skin and now the wrinkles of someone who was raised in the desert). I get by though, somehow, without it.

Surprisingly, I got asked out more when I stopped the dressing up and makeup thing than I did when I tried it. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the self-assurance I'd gained with maturity, and probably little to nothing to do with the makeup and comfortable shoes.

Out of pure curiosity here, since I may see the series/movie someday: didn't the Firefly show have a kind of bred-to-be-a-pleasure-giving-woman as a character? I'm curious: was she portrayed as a "natural" beauty, or was she someone who applied makeup (and slept in it )?

 

[hypatia]

Who is anyone to look at anyone else and decide who's "healthy?"

Family. It kills me seeing really young girls falling into this before they are mature enough to know what the hell they are doing to their bodies; permanant damage can really be a result.

Here's the deal- if someone is actually very healthy, than that person is boring, so regardless of what you do there's a sacrifice. Let people ruin themselves as they see fit.

Really? Once again, from what I've noticed, in my life the people who seem to attract mates easiest are the ones who are naturally healthy. Not unnaturally bulky or unnaturally skinny or unnaturally fat. Of course, everyone judges this "natural/unnatural" on a very subjective level.

 

[GKarsEye]

Out of pure curiosity here, since I may see the series/movie someday: didn't the Firefly show have a kind of bred-to-be-a-pleasure-giving-woman as a character? I'm curious: was she portrayed as a "natural" beauty, or was she someone who applied makeup (and slept in it )?

Let's not over-complicate things- the character was a high-priced prostitute, reminiscent of a courtesan in ye olde days, in that she's and educated and "classy" escort. A beautiful woman (because she's on TV) but of course used makeup and wore pretty clothes and the like.

I went through my "make-up is stupid phase." It's for dumbies/insecure women/whores/whatever-I-was-angry-about-at-the-time. Whatever, I got over myself.

An ex once observed that I only complained about her taking long to get ready when we we're going somewhere fun, not when we were going to visit her parents or the like.

Once again, from what I've noticed, in my life the people who seem to attract mates easiest are the ones who are naturally healthy.

Well "attract mates" is pretty wide net there. But I didn't mention that- I'm just talking about boring people, the ones who proudly don't do anything wrong to themselves. Wrong = fun! And wrong doesn't necessarily translate to "ugly," either. Hot college pot-heads- ah, what would I've done in my younger days without 'em?

I mean, seriously, have you ever met someone who doesn't like to eat, doesn't smoke or do any recreational drugs, abstains from liquor, casual sex, gambling, any of these things... and isn't a total douchebag?

 

[hypatia]

Well "attract mates" is pretty wide net there. But I didn't mention that- I'm just talking about boring people, the ones who proudly don't do anything wrong to themselves. Wrong = fun! And wrong doesn't necessarily translate to "ugly," either. Hot college pot-heads- ah, what would I've done in my younger days without 'em?

Now there is a classic quote.

I mean, seriously, have you ever met someone who doesn't like to eat, doesn't smoke or do any recreational drugs, abstains from liquor, casual sex, gambling, any of these things... and isn't a total douchebag?

I've thought many times before that I'll never get people's obsession with a presidential candidate having a totally "innocent" past. I mean, in the USA at least, who do you know who went to college/university who didn't get into a little mischief?

As you say, only the most mind-boggling boring ones. Not that a lifestyle should be made around such things, but college is a natural kind of "try it out" phase of existance for most middle-class Americans, I think. When you are young enough to be stupid, but old enough to taste what it is to be an adult.

It's actually a relatively safe place to be in that in-between zone. Especially if you lived on campus for a semester or two. And, as my mother said, people kind of expect college kids to do dumb things.

And thanks for posting the picture, by the way. Yes, she looks like a modern (or future) courtesan. What was it that made them so very sought after, though? From what little I've seen of the series (snippets of episodes or of Serenity) I got the impression they were... somehow more than just your average super-classy prostitute.

 

[GKarsEye]

Why were they so sought after? Well, the courtesan analogy still holds. Wealthy aristocrats could certainly have found sexual partners easily without having to pay so much money, and spend so much non-sexual time with courtesans. So what was their appeal?

Believe it or not, even some men who pay for sex want the women to be charming, witty, educated, and fun to be with. With a courtesan-like woman, you aren't just paying for sex, you are paying for companionship. But unlike dating, there is no commitment, no unwanted emotional clinginess, and, most importantly, the lady is there to make you happy, not judge your or criticize you or nag you.

It turns out that right now in Japan, there are nice-looking, charming young men who are hired by successful wealthy women to take them out and spend time with them and- supposedly- not have sex with them. So, like, jiggalos without the sex.

The idea of paying for someone to basically like you for a set amount of time may seem ridiculous to most, but there's a huge market for it, and in the right circumstances, can even do some good.

 

[KoshFan]

Well, I didn't get into shenanigans much in college. And I was also incredibly boring until then. Now I'm just mostly boring.

 

[GKarsEye]

More tangents...

Speaking of Firefly and unrealistically hot women on the screen, I recently watching the movie I Think I Love My Wife, starring Chris Rock as a man trapped in a passion-less marriage who meets a beautiful young woman, stirring the temptation to cheat. The boring but stable wife is played by Gina Torres.

Yeah, 'cause that happens.

Oh, what woman could possibly be the fantasy to compete with Torres?

Mmm..... Well I suppose that'd do it, yeah.

But, yes, fellas, you do see more of her than her face. That is pretty much the reason to watch this thing.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u223/timesheet/KerryImage.jpg

Heh. Actually I think it did bomb. Even the presence of two knock-outs like that couldn't save the film from being a remake of a French film but with jokes from Chris Rock's stand-up routine (seriously, I was able to pick out specific routines).

Oh, I'm sorry, do I lose my feminist cred by posting girly pics?

 

[hypatia]

Seems you have strayed from your NC17 forum.

I don't quite buy the "he left her for an even more intoxicatingly beautiful woman" line, either. From what I understand, that's not the real reason men who cheat do so.

In fact, sometimes the mistress isn't even prettier than the wife.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

I mean, seriously, have you ever met someone who doesn't like to eat, doesn't smoke or do any recreational drugs, abstains from liquor, casual sex, gambling, any of these things... and isn't a total douchebag?

Well, I do like to consider myself not a total douchebag, but clearly YMMV. I cannot claim not to love to eat, but I got sick of being 18-20 stone and have no intention of going there again now that I am not.

 

[Chilli]

I mean, seriously, have you ever met someone who doesn't like to eat, doesn't smoke or do any recreational drugs, abstains from liquor, casual sex, gambling, any of these things... and isn't a total douchebag?

That's stupid.

Yeah, most people do have a guilty pleasure of some sort, and only very few people absolutely always just do what's best for them. But, different people's sense of self-preservation will be stronger than others, so some people are less prone to do completely idiotic things, like hard drugs.

Also, it's not just about abstinence .. but also about how interesting stuff is to people - some people just don't have the tempation. Smoking is one thing for me there - I've just never felt tempted. So for me, never having smoked isn't me abstaining from anything. No more than I'm abstaining from homosexual sex.