Galactica Season 4 (Spoilers Within)

[Chilli]

It seems their objections aren't that characters believe in God(s), but, rather that the series ended with an absolute confirmation of a God, and didn't explain it away it as advanced species (although the final line does leave some room to theorize God may not have been a God afterall)

... no. "Advanced Species" would have been retarded too.

 

[KoshFan]

I've long feared that RDM & Co. have had no real direction, and were going about things -- as was theorized up-thread -- purely from the lens of "Wouldn't it be cool if...?" The thing is, RDM and his fellows have a lot of cool ideas... but they lack coherency. In fact I think they need to take a page from Dr. Samuel Johnson, who advised aspiring writers three centuries ago to "kill their darlings." If something's really awesome but doesn't fit, it can't go in!

RDM, I fear, puts in what he wants to put in, and then hand-waves it later. So these last few episodes were designed mostly as an emotional send-off to our heroes and our ships. At some points that worked very well. Adama taking his leave of Lee and Kara was touching -- and taking his leave of Galactica, too. Roslin's death brought tears to my eyes. Baltar becoming a farmer again was... kind of fitting.

Hera becoming mitochondrial Eve doesn't actually rule out all other Colonials dying, since it doesn't take the male line into account. Of course it also tells us that our mitochondrial DNA is, in fact, of Cylon origin, since Hera would have gotten her mitochondrial DNA from Athena. Perhaps that was just enough of an edge to make Hera's kids more fit to survive.

But it's still not terribly coherent.

Personally I do not at all object to having God in science fiction tales (and if God isn't scientific enough for SF, VL, I'm afraid Galactica's FTL drives should provoke the same anger; in some ways it's like having a deus ex machina built into the frakkin' ship) -- but I have to object to the God steering the show in BSG. It was an untidy deity.


EDIT: Hah! Check out this quote from RDM:

I went home and had an epiphany in the shower and said, "It's the characters, stupid!" And it really always has been, and I went back the next day and said, "Let's forget about the plot for a moment and just trust that it will work itself out, because it always does. What do we want the characters to deal with; let's talk about the individual stories and resolutions." I just had an image of someone in their house chasing a bird from the room, I didn't know what it meant but it's an image and let's put it on the board.

I do believe this means I'm right. He wanted an emotional send-off, and fudged the plot to do it.

 

[GKarsEye]

Does anyone else envision Moore sitting somewhere reading National Geographic and reading an article about Mitochondrial Eve and thinking, "Hey, that'd be a neat hook for a sci-fi story."

"Wouldn't it be cool if..."

However, I don't mind that at all in thiis case, and didn't mean to give the impression I did. It's one part of the finale that made any sense to me, actually.

FWIW, my issue with he "god did it" is NOT the inclusion of God per se, despite my personal atheism, nor do I think the subject doesn't belong in the genre or anything like that. It's HOW they did- leaving the nature and will of this crucial character or force so vague, which allows for the story teller to do anything without consequence.

You know, the fact that I had to write it that way- "character or force"- tells me a lot. What is the role, dramatically, of "god" in this show? Is it a character- a person (albeit with amazing super-powers or omnipotence or whatever, as he is in the Bible) with thoughts and feelings and desires? Is it a force, like a hurricane or gravity or magic?

When you have characters with motivations, you can trace a series of actions to an end that will leave you with an emotional resonance. When you have a force of some sort that our characters have to work with or against, you have a frame of reference, an obstoacle or tool or.... hell, SOMETHING. But here we have... what, exactly? A force? A person? A thing? Nature? Our god? A god? What does it want? What is it doing? Why? For Pete's sake give me something I can hang my hat on. Something I can follow that defines the narrative, the goddamn POINT of the FRACKING STORY. At the end of the day.... why should we give a shit?

I do wonder what VL and TruthSeeker, and any others who feel "betrayed" or unsatisfied by the finale were expecting, or what they would've done differently

A reason for why stuff happened. Rather, what we got was "it's all a big mystery!" That is bullshit.

It seems their objections aren't that characters believe in God(s), but, rather that the series ended with an absolute confirmation of a God, and didn't explain it away it as advanced species (although the final line does leave some room to theorize God may not have been a God afterall)

I wish it ended with such a confirmation- all we know is that there's something. God, like any other idea or thing, is meaningless without more than it's simple existence.

Frankly if I'd be religious I'd be offended. People don't just worship god because he's there. They worship him because he has a plan for them, or saves them, or they're scared of him, or them... they have a relationship with some power that his thoughts and deeds and motivations and a will of some sort.

Re: Recoil's 150,000 vs 15,000 yrs:
My gut reaction to the idea of the BSG people essentially creating human civilization is that it's "cheesy."

Remember that a bunch of those settlers were cylons, and I think it's safe to assume none of them had kids.

The other stuff (like language/laws, etc,) who knows. It could have been passed down, then somewhere along the way it was lost temporarily and rediscovered. Not sure. It's a big hole, isn't it.

I think the way to look at it is that if you had two races of humans develop biologically the same on two different planets independatlly, they would do the same culturally.

The real absurd part is just that- two completely different planets having biologically identical human races. A famous quote (I believe attributed to Sagan but I'm not sure) is that it would be easier for a man to mate with a flower than with any alien species.

I do believe this means I'm right. He wanted an emotional send-off, and fudged the plot to do it

Well yeah- I think a number of us have been saying this in some fashion for a while. It's why I expected the plot to not resolve in a really good way, because it's clear the writers didn't care so much.

 

[Chilli]

In a way they've canonized the mental image I'd have of god, if I believed in god.

God is a punk. He's playing pranks for shits and giggles.

Let's summarize god's actions:

-> He stalks Starbuck with a Bob Dylan song all her life, and gives her cryptic visions she can't make out.

-> Her cryptic visions lead her to kill herself in athmospheric storms on planet A

-> She mysteriously teleports to Earth - but not our earth, an inhabitable rock earth, were she crashes and dies.

-> God creates angel!Starbuck with an angel!Viper

-> angel!Starbuck and angel!Viper lead Galactica to Earth. Just that Earth is a useless rock. Hah-hah!

-> angel!Starbuck takes Galactica to out Earth by typing a Bob Dylan song into the navigational computer.

Even if I believed in god, and didn't think it was such piss-poor writing to use god as a plot device in this way .. the only way I can explain god's motivations here is that he was taking a piss.

 

[vacantlook]

-> He stalks Starbuck with a Bob Dylan song all her life, and gives her cryptic visions she can't make out.

-> Her cryptic visions lead her to kill herself in athmospheric storms on planet A

-> She mysteriously teleports to Earth - but not our earth, an inhabitable rock earth, were she crashes and dies.

-> God creates angel!Starbuck with an angel!Viper

-> angel!Starbuck and angel!Viper lead Galactica to Earth. Just that Earth is a useless rock. Hah-hah!

-> angel!Starbuck takes Galactica to out Earth by typing a Bob Dylan song into the navigational computer.

It's all a part of God's big pointless plan, don't you see. It was all so that Hera could come here and be our common ancestor... which is important for some unexplained reason.

 

[Galahad]

It's all a part of God's big pointless plan, don't you see. It was all so that Hera could come here and be our common ancestor... which is important for some unexplained reason.

Perhaps Hera's advanced immunity helped her descendants survive one of the bugs on this planet that we were not previously equipped to handle, perhaps she helped to crucially give us a final evolutionary push on the path to sentience.

Why does God's plan have to be pointless just because man cannot fathom it? When did the human race suddenly get the jumped up idea that he is answerable to our petty whims? Does he really have to explain himself to any mortal? There are times when I believe he does...but that is always out of grace, joy or concern and never out of obligation.

This is turning into apologetics, which was not my intent.

I think you guys should let it go...there have been science fiction series with a strongly atheistic bias, but I don't complain about them... I enjoy them on their own merits and don't obsess over the difference in belief.

I ask one question - why is it that theists are expected to sit quietly and listen to the apologetics of militant atheism with patience and tolerance... but when the tables are turned, and the theists do the talking, there is always a mercurial defensive reaction of outrage and a taking of offence?

 

[GKarsEye]

Galahad, why are you turning this into your bugaboo about "militant atheists" vs religion?

Whether or not we know the real god's plan is irrelevant to the topic of fiction. BSG is not the bible.

 

[Galahad]

Galahad, why are you turning this into your bugaboo about "militant atheists" vs religion?

Whether or not we know the real god's plan is irrelevant to the topic of fiction.

Sorry. I don't intend to, I'm just getting very tired of the whole "woe is me... a sci-fi show ended with a reasonably theistic outlook" vibe. And for the record, I didn't raise that point... I merely responded to it.

BSG is not the bible.

Did I not make that very point a few posts ago when trying to get the thread back on track?

 

[Chilli]

Sorry. I don't intend to, I'm just getting very tired of the whole "woe is me... a sci-fi show ended with a reasonably theistic outlook" vibe. And for the record, I didn't raise that point... I merely responded to it.

But it didn't end on a theistic outlook. It ended with god sending his angels or something to get the writers out of a corner they had written themselves into .. and all of the characters basically shrugging their shoulders, without giving any indication of this having in any way affected their view of the world.

theology != using god as a lame-ass plot device

 

[vacantlook]

Perhaps Hera's advanced immunity helped her descendants survive one of the bugs on this planet that we were not previously equipped to handle, perhaps she helped to crucially give us a final evolutionary push on the path to sentience.

Perhaps the story should have told that if that were true.

Why does God's plan have to be pointless just because man cannot fathom it?

Because this isn't actual life, it was a story, and in this story God's plan was supposedly brought to fruition, but why? What did it actually accomplish of significance on a grand enough scale to be worth of God's intervention through magic music? What was the point? That's something the story failed to provide.

When did the human race suddenly get the jumped up idea that he is answerable to our petty whims?

Because he's a character in a story that was written by a human being. Or are you on the edge of considering Battlestar Galactica to be the next Bible? I'm not talking about the entity you worship, I'm talking about the character that's in a story.

Does he really have to explain himself to any mortal?

The author of a story does, otherwise they fail in their storytelling.

 

[Galahad]

But it didn't end on a theistic outlook. It ended with god sending his angels or something to get the writers out of a corner they had written themselves into .. and all of the characters basically shrugging their shoulders, without giving any indication of this having in any way affected their view of the world.

Ironically, on a bad day you could argue the tragicomical point that this statement reflects reality all too well from my perspective.

 

[vacantlook]

Sorry. I don't intend to, I'm just getting very tired of the whole "woe is me... a sci-fi show ended with a reasonably theistic outlook" vibe.

It didn't end with a theistic outlook, it ended with God solving all the problems because the writers couldn't think of a way out of the hole they written themselves into so they let an unexplained God fix everything cloaked in mysterious untold reasoning. Why was Hera important? Because God said so. Why did God help this group of people get to Earth with magic music? Just because. Because why? Just because. No actual reason is given in the story. That's my complaint. God was used to magically end the story because the writers couldn't think of any other way to resolve things.

Did I not make that very point a few posts ago when trying to get the thread back on track?

But you set that point aside when you started equating the character of "God" in BSG to the God you worship.

 

[Chilli]

But it didn't end on a theistic outlook

It didn't end with a theistic outlook

Jinx.

 

[Galahad]

Perhaps the story should have told that if that were true.

Perhaps

Because this isn't actual life, it was a story, and in this story God's plan was supposedly brought to fruition, but why? What did it actually accomplish of significance on a grand enough scale to be worth of God's intervention through magic music? What was the point? That's something the story failed to provide.

If it's a story why get so worked up about it?

Because he's a character in a story that was written by a human being.

But we're talking about a character who follows the general concept of a godlike being are we not? And we are pretty much told as much throughout the series via head Caprica 6's.

Or are you on the edge of considering Battlestar Galactica to be the next Bible?

What's with all the cheap shots along that line?:wtf: You should know better... more disappointing than this, you should know ME better.

 

[Galahad]

But you set that point aside when you started equating the character of "God" in BSG to the God you worship.

That's a rather false assumption not to mention a poor one on your part.

I'm not defending my God by proxy. I don't need to. I'm talking about the nature of what people generally understand when they describe an entity who fits the role of a god... this is not just restricted to the monotheistic big three... and generally speaking, they aren't answerable to our will.

 

[vacantlook]

If it's a story why get so worked up about it?

I'm just sitting in front of my computer typing up words in an online discussion; if this was me being worked up then it'd do wonders for my blood pressure.

What's with all the cheap shots along that line?:wtf: You should know better... more disappointing than this, you should know ME better.

My comment came as a reaction to your getting defensive over complaints about God in BSG as if someone was attacking your real-world religion.

...and generally speaking, they aren't answerable to our will.

And supposedly, they're not beings created by some people writing a story. If a storyteller tells a story about some big plan orchestrated by God, and then doesn't show a point in the plan's fruition, then the storyteller has failed. The posts of yours that I responded to were ones in which you were defending God of BSG as if you were defending the God you believe in. God of BSG was the creation of a human writer and is subject to every other convention of good storytelling that any other character would be. Unexplained things happening in real life being chalked up to God being mysterious is a totally different thing than a storyteller failing to depict the point in a God character's plan in a story.

 

[Alluveal]

I think everyone is assuming that this was just thrown together at the last minute. Sure, some aspects were, but it seems like RDM had the "God/Angel" thing in mind (at least for Head Six / Head Baltar) since the beginning.

And in season 3 (beginning, if I remember,) he knew what Starbuck would be and had discussed it with Katee Sackhoff.

I'm not sure I see where the "throwing it all in to save our collective writing asses" is exactly coming from, unless you consider the 3rd of 4 seasons to be "at the last minute" here.

 

[vacantlook]

The whole "it's God's plan" makes me think so much of the cylons "and they have a plan" from the opening sequence back in the first couple of seasons. The big plan of the cylons ended up tossed out the window come the finale of season two, mostly because I don't think the writers ever had a big plan for the cylons to have. I kept waiting and waiting and waiting for the plan to be articulated, but it never was. These big plans seem to have a way of just farting out when it comes time to actually depict what the plan actually is.

 

[Sindatur]

The whole "it's God's plan" makes me think so much of the cylons "and they have a plan" from the opening sequence back in the first couple of seasons. The big plan of the cylons ended up tossed out the window come the finale of season two, mostly because I don't think the writers ever had a big plan for the cylons to have. I kept waiting and waiting and waiting for the plan to be articulated, but it never was. These big plans seem to have a way of just farting out when it comes time to actually depict what the plan actually is.

Not sure if it's any comfort, but, the Telemovie coming is called "The Plan"

 

[vacantlook]

Not sure if it's any comfort, but, the Telemovie coming is called "The Plan"

Yeah, I did notice that. I'm curious enough that I'll watch it when it comes, but it's a shame that whatever the cylons' plan was wasn't included in the series itself. Imagine if what the Shadows were trying to do hadn't been told until after Sleeping In Light had aired. :vulcan: