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Galactica Season 4 (Spoilers Within)

I am going to throw in my one cent here as I didn't watch the series past the mini-series.

Based on what I have read here, there is no theist vs. atheist viewpoint here. It is "I think the ending was great because..." vs. "I think the ending sucks because..."

I do find the discrepancies between one group saying that the writers set this ending up way back when and another group saying that the ending just got them out of a corner they painted themselves in to be quite interesting.
 
In an interview w/ Moore referenced earlier, he pretty much said he was winging it. The unknown element is exactly what he was winging. Specifically, the god/angels bit.

While it's certainly possible that the nature of the these characters that only two other people could see was decided upon early on, it was also assumed by most of us that they were hallucinations (either due to madness, stress, or external manipulation) or something more tangible. It certainly "felt" like that's where they were headed up until the very end.

I totally understand that how I "felt" isn't much of an argument, logically. But it's important. Sure you could be thinking "well you're just mad that you guessed wrong," but really that's not the case. I guessed wrong about what they'd do with Earth, but that plot element didn't "feel" wrong at all, so I'm fine with it. But the way head 6 acted, what she did- none of makes me look back and think "oh, yeah, angel, of course." It just don't feel right.
 
Hell, I think Moore winged everything after season 2. I admit I stopped watching BG shortly into season 3. Watching only a handful of episodes sense so I might be off base here but it started to become " Desperate Houswives " in space to me. And I hate the word " FRAK " now. They abused the hell out of the word. It became almost absurd after awhile.

GKars Eye has had some valid points in reading some of his posts here and I agree, Adama leaving to die by himself made no sense at all. None at all . Can anyone explain that to me ? PLEASE. And after fighting for thier lives and against impossible odds, when they find earth they simply wander off into the unknown wilderness and commit mass suicide. Not only is it silly, its stupid. Moore turned what could have been one of the greatest sci fi series into a confusing, convoluted joke.. Honestly, can anyone make sense of the series ?

thanks
dennis
 
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It seems their objections aren't that characters believe in God(s), but, rather that the series ended with an absolute confirmation of a God, and didn't explain it away it as advanced species (although the final line does leave some room to theorize God may not have been a God afterall)

Someone had mentioned that God had no place in Sci-fi earlier before it got really messy and I was thinking of that as I typed.

The constant harping on about God without any substance to what the religion was really about was one of the things that annoyed me about the show.I can more than understand people being pissed off with all the mysteries of the show being put down to God in the end.Then again most people realised that there would not be a great resolution to the series quite a while ago.

I'm not really surprised that those who believe in a "real" God are the ones who seem to be happier with this sort of ending either.I guess some people are just built that way :thumbsup:
 
I'm not really surprised that those who believe in a "real" God are the ones who seem to be happier with this sort of ending either.I guess some people are just built that way :thumbsup:

Not me!

They gave the characters a heartwarming but nonsensical send-off, that's how I read it. It satisfied emotionally, but not intellectually.
 
Someone had mentioned that God had no place in Sci-fi earlier before it got really messy and I was thinking of that as I typed.

The constant harping on about God without any substance to what the religion was really about was one of the things that annoyed me about the show.I can more than understand people being pissed off with all the mysteries of the show being put down to God in the end.Then again most people realised that there would not be a great resolution to the series quite a while ago.

I'm not really surprised that those who believe in a "real" God are the ones who seem to be happier with this sort of ending either.I guess some people are just built that way :thumbsup:

I wouldn't say I'm happy with the ending. I resigned myself to the fact their would be a crappy ending at the least, and no ending at the worst ( I had the "Ship of Lights" aliens manipulating and pretending to be GOD in my theory of how it would end). I do believe the ending we got was telegraphed from the beginning of the series (wether by chance, luck or fancy footwork by RDM), that's why I am satisfied with the ending, not neccessarily happy, but, satisfied (A crappy or predictable ending is better than no ending whatsoever)

Even though LOST has had lots of relilgious allusions scattered throughout the series from multitudes of faiths, I would be sore if LOST ends in a religiously inspired ending, because although religion has played a part in it, it hasn't been telegraphed as "the answer" as BSG has done from the beginning.

That's not to say that some of VL's (and others) complaints fall on my deaf ears, I agree the BSG God as a character is lacking in explained motivation and depth and slapped together
 
Something I'm curious about is this. What if he was "winging it?" Should that really matter to the viewer? I mean, take the author Raymond Carver, for instance. Many folks don't realize that his stories were a LOT different before his editor got through with them. His editor came to be know as the real "creative force" behind the stories by many. Or rather, that it was a collaborative effort that Carver got the credit for.

Should that matter? Is it the final product that is the important part here or the process? As a writer I know that most writing goes through the editing process (though in Carver's case, it was severe.) How much of a piece is really mine when it's all said and done? Is it all mine because the original conception was mine? Or, does it belong to my editor as well?

In the case of BSG, does it matter that some of the material came to the creator toward the end? Or, should we just be looking at the finished product for what it is w/o placing too much of the process on it? Is it safe to say that most of us here on this board are very very spoiled with the writing of JMS (who plotted and planned things meticulously,) and that most other writing is going to be inferior on that level?
 
My metric here's a simple one - if I notice that the writers are winging it, yeah, it matters. If I don't, I don't.

It's kind of like cramming for exams. Nothing wrong with it if you can do it and convince your teachers/professors that you didn't do that, but if you do a shitty job at it .. you'll fail the exam.
 
That makes a lot of sense, Chilli. I get where you're coming from and I can't say that I disagree. I think that there is a lot I've been willing to overlook in Galactica, even toward the end.
 
That's a good question Alluveal and normally my answer would be "no it doesn't matter."

As a music nerd, I've spent a lot of time learning how musicians learn their craft, reading about little facts about the process of writing, rehearsing and recording some of my favorite music; artist influences, technique, etc. But at the end of the day none of that matters unless something works right and effects the listener. The members of Steely Dan are famous for killing themselves over every minute detail while the Ramones' seminal debut was recorded in a flash for $5000 when they could barely play their instruments, and I love them both.

In movies we can learn all we want about the "making of" but no matter how impressive the details and the effort itself, we don't have to like something just because we're impressed by it. I found my interest in both movies and music revitalized when I laid off the nerdy music research and stopped watching DVD bonus features and commentaries.

But the reason the improvised nature of BSG bothers me is because the nature of the show implied it shouldn't be. The Cylons had a Plan. There were all sorts of mysteries about Starbuck's "death," the odd appearance of that song, secret Cylons, etc.

The real life works is that, if you don't know something, it's not because that thing doesn't exist yet or hasn't happened, it's just that you don't possess that information, until you acquire facts about the nature of something. Stories- fiction or not- can only work when it uses realistic logic. So the creator invents some fact, builds a story around it, hides some mystery from the audience, then reveals it to them, thus completing the story, and it makes sense and works.

Nobody's claiming every TV show should be well planned all in advance. The very nature of TV actually precludes that. And because of that, most shows don't have the structure of building in some deep mysteries that are the foundation of the plot. But IF someone decides to do that, then yes, those mysteries should be worked out when they're invented, otherwise it's like starting to tell a joke without knowing the punchline.

I think BSG would've worked out much better if either:
1. Those big mysteries were thought out in advance. Not every detail, but things like who are the final 5 and why are they secret, what is the origin and nature of the prophecies, dreams, visions, etc.
2. Left as a show about survivors fleeing an genocidal robot race in space.

That second show could've been just fine without all the nonsense they tried to throw in there. They could even have kept all their social/religious/political commentary stuff in there.

Reminds me of The X-Files- remember when that show started it was really awesome? Yet so simple- two detectives with conflicting yet complimentary characteristics investigate various paranormal activities. Fantastic! But no, they had to start with their Big Arc Mysteries, with unplanned consequences, that eventually deteriorated the show and buried it in incomprehensible and nonsensical garbage. Looks like something similar happened here.
 
Alias suffered a similar fate. The mysteries were very cool early on in the show, but then things just started getting stranger and stranger, in part because they really were mapping them out only a few weeks in advance.
 
Yeah, JJ skroo'ed the pooch on Alias hardcore. Making Mama Derevko a totally evil bitch was so utterly lame. She was far better as a bad-ass "shades of gray" character.

Though, I have to say, I love how Jack screwed Sloane in the last episode.
 
a massive part of alias' problem was the contents of the file at the end of season 3, it was supposed to be utterly earthshattering stuff, but the network insisted that it be dropped due to overcomplicating issues. JJ has an excellent eye, and it's unfair to lay all the blame at his feet.
 
If JJ's eye was so excellent, then he should've been able to adapt. But the problems with Alias began long before that stupid file from the end of season three.
 
He lost focus when he started in with Lost. It seemed like he only had time for one of his "pets" and Alias "lost" out.

All of season 3 sucked. The whole "oops, a year of my life is gone and Vaughn is married to a she-hellcat (though a nice looking one) and blah blah" was just stupid.

Season 4 had promise. I liked Nadia. But, it felt like JJ said, "yeah... well... this is done soon, so seeya!" Then went over to "the island" and forgot all about poor Sydney Bristow. Most fans were pissed. I know I was and I avoided Lost for that reason for a long time. Then, I came around. :)

They never really wrapped up the Rambaldi stuff (and some fans of both shows speculate that there is something Rambaldi-ish going on in Lost.)

Either way, Jennifer Garner rocked it all the way through, even though I'm sure she was thinking "WTF is this?" toward the last half of the series.
 
I'd just like to thank everybody who has posted in this thread that helped lower my expectations of the series finale so much, that I actually rather enjoyed it. :)

The ending wasn't brilliant and I am not going to re-open the God debate.

What I didn't like was that they were winging it, despite saying the Cylons had a plan. If youare stating that in your openign creidts, you need to have that plan worked out.

Overall the series was average but I feel it should have been so much better. I defintiely agree with the sentiment of "wouldn't it be cool if..." getting them into corners which they couldn't write themselves out of satisfactorially. The two I can remember off of the top of my head were Roslin being miraculosuly saved from her cancer and the epsiode where they had a virus that could wipe out the cylons yet didn't have sufficent security to stop one man form rescuing the cylon (I might even be remembering that wrong).

Here's hoping that the V remake does better overall.
 
The Cylon's plan was nothing more than Caval's AI-centric superiority complex. I expect the forthcoming TV movie prequel 'The Plan' will tie this one up for us.

God's plan was implicit throughout, in the way Caprica Six, Baltar and Angel Starbuck manipulated Cylons and Humans towards a reckoning, straight from the first episode. But the credits did not mention that, so it seemed like an afterthought. God arguments aside, that was nicely done.

As for the finale, not too hot. I Liked the effects and the final battle. Thought Caval's death was a bit stupid. Liked the whole forming civilisation on Earth bit. The final scene in the present day was a bit trite, but fun. Did not like the flashback angles, smelt of Retcon. Not a patch on the Pegasus two parter.

But what do you all expect ? He made it up as he went along. It was handled better than the X-Files, thats for sure. Its clear that is was easier to write about mysteries and make them effective by having them as actual mysteries to the writers. Everyone got to play guessing games, even them!

I've since learnt that I prefer shows with real structure (Like B5, mega suprise there). But these are harder to pull off.

I did love the style, presentation and ability to tackle big issues, (Rape, torture, suicide bombings, opression, religous meglo-mania, anti abortion, religous nutjobs, AI's civil rights). Without the freeform approach, it would have been difficult for them to tackle these so well.

At times it reminded me of studying for my Politics degree, moving each week from one hypothetical social situation to the next. This is arguably part of the role of speculative fiction, to explore the affects of changing society and in particular the effects of technology. The show did this very well. A lot better than any series of Stargate: Franchise 1.

The social commentary angle was awesome, as was the cast. Outstanding effects, sets, music and SFX (Dradis noise !!!) also helped. These were the shows strengths, and I hope they reflect well on future TV sci-fi.

Not an amazing series overall, but groundbreaking in many ways. Possibly slightly less than the sum of its parts.

And I would have prefered this to any old school BSG revival anytime.
 
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It was handled better than the X-Files, thats for sure

The Iraq war was handled better than the X-Files.

Wise-ass comments aside I do appreciate the positive points of the series youi remind us of.
 
Yeah. We talked about them so much in season 1 & 2 I figured we started taking it for granted. Especially when it became obvious that the plot was not there to back it up.
 
I've come to the following conclusion. Darth's points are valid, and there were many things the show did. And even with RDM stating that they did make a lot of it up as they went (they didnt try to hide it) the finished product was still very good. Not perfect, but good.

Still, considering that, IMO the one MAJOR mistake they made, and where I think things sort of "jumped the shark" a bit, was when the introduced the concept of "The Final Five Cylons." I think everything else they did, introduced, and ran with --- made up on the fly or not --- would have been OK if not for the whole Final Five concept. This one plot point they decided to run with really unraveled a LOT of the story and caused more problems than it solved.

When the show started you knew this:

"There are 12 Cylon Models. There are many copies."

When people started flaming "well how did the Cylons know that the Galactica would survive and have all those Cylons on board?" they really werent thinking it thorugh, and at the time, there was a very good explaination. The answer is "They didn't." Their "plan" would have been infiltration. If you have 12 colonies, which is basically 12 planet earths, thats a LOT of people. Could you have SEVERAL copies of each model become entrenched across the various colonies and branches of service? Sure. They didn't target infiltrating the Galactica, they infiltrated EVERYWHERE. Then when the nukes hit, those Cylons in the "wrong" place really didn't care because they can just resurrect and they are back in action. So those Cylons infiltrating the Galactica just happened to be the ones imbedded with the survivors --- something the Cylons would have wanted no matter WHICH ships survived.

So I think up to that point, it all worked very well. Cylon paranoia was alive and for good reason, and everything seemed to make sense.

Then you have the Final Five. We find out, contrary to what we were lead to believe before, that these aren't typical "model lines" with many copies, but five Cylon "individuals." Taking THAT into account....yea....what really ARE the odds that all five of them would end up surviving and in one place? Pretty damn weak. ESPECIALLY when you look at Anders, who was left stranded on Earth and got freakin lucky that Starbuck came back for him and his band of survivors (or lucky she even went there in the first place at all and found them).

So the second this Final Five concept is introduced, already things start to get stretched a bit.

IMO there could have been any NUMBER of ways they could have handed the whole "original Earth" story. But the Final Five not only flew in the face of something that made pretty good sense and was interesting to figure out, but it just upped the ante on "find that missing Cylon" and thats what the show became about.

If you were to remove that one plot device from the series, and tell it slightly differently without it, I think a LOT of things would have turned out considerably for the better.

Again, I think the final product is still good and ended up much better than it could have given how some of it was brought to be. But that one part of the story NEVER worked for me and I think really made for harder viewing...
 
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