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Galactica Season 4 (Spoilers Within)

Other possibilities

All the humans could turn out to be Cylons

Alternatively the final Cylon may be a character that we have not seen yet. The head Cylon for instance.
 
Did anyone else notice that the weapons locker Tigh, the Chief and what's her name all met in was Weapons Locker 1701D?

Thats about all I have to say about tonights episode right now.
 
"I don't wanna fight, I wanna frack" is my new corny catchphrase. That whole scene made me giggle.

I personally don't count anything outside the show itself- like interviews- in my thinking, so in my brain, Starbuck could still be a Cylon.

And I personally do like the Cylon "civil war"- the only way this whole mess can be resolved is by breaking down both human and Cylon societies and coming to some sort of resolution based on whatever the big final revelations are.
 
Holllllleeeeeeeee FRACK. I just watched this episode. I was utterly speechless. It was hard enough watching Cally almost ice her and her son, but when Tory took that child and spaced Cally, God, it was just heart-wrenching. I also liked Cally a lot. I think the writers just didn't know exactly what to do with her after she got pregnant and had a baby. But, I still liked her character. Nobody can say, "you FRACKIN' CYLON" with as much venom and hatred as she can. :D


Tory is scary. She's embracing her cylon status a little too quickly and intimately, I think. First she's crying her eyes out while Baltar is borking her, now she's hitting on Chief and spacing people. She'll be the first to go if they realize a cylon is on board. She'll probably be the first named and dealt with.

I don't know about Tory. I think she's feeling free and being a cylon allows her to finally be that. I don't know that she's necessarily evil though. I do believe that if one of the final 5 dies, she'll most likely be it. But we all know that character arcs in BSG can alter significantly and quickly depending on events. So...I don't really want to hazard a guess as to where Tory is going right now. Her actions to save the 2nd hybrid child made sense from a cylon point of view. I also think she will be busted for spacing Cally. Someone, most likely Tyrel, will start to put the pieces together. Think about it, if Cally had spaced herself, then the key would be inside the airlock. But with the airlock sealed after Cally was spaced, there would be no way for Tory to get the key back in the airlock's controls. Also, how is the child explained? Did Tory claim to find him? What is Tory's story of what happened? We haven't heard that yet. And if Tyrel finds out it was Tory, then it becomes personal, cylon to cylon. And that...intrigues me.

Best part of the entire episode!

I agree it was definitely a great moment! I'm still wondering where this will go and how the centurions will move forward.

Am I the only one who noted the very important line that Cavil said? When Boomer (who I think is now having second thoughts about siding with Cavil) was worried about their souls? Cavil said to let THEIR god sort them out and then went on to say we're machines, we don't have immortal souls. This shows a fundamental rift within the idealogy of the cylons that apparently has always been there. That line was very important.

I kind of enjoyed the whole Starbuck/Anders thing. That whole "I dare you to make me feel something" was kind of hot. Yeah! GET IT ON! I don't think he's letting her shit on him, I think that he's still a bit lost about who he is and she's already told him that if he was a cylon, she'd put a bullet between his eyes. She's all he's got, I think, besides his cylon compatriots, which he doesn't seem to chummy with.

As for Kara herself, she is off her rocker a bit. I am adament that she's not a cylon. Something else has happened to her. The alien thing in side her is probably some kind of tracking device. =)

This has been brought up a lot on the BSG boards, the Ship of Lights. Though the episode has been referred to as one of the biggest POS ideas in original BSG history, they could redo it. Moore also stated in some interview, that he'd love to redo that whole concept. So, that could very well be it. That's why I think Starbuck is not a cylon. I think it's something else. Ship of lights has a nice spot in my top ideas/theories.

Alien thing inside her? What alien thing? Did I miss something?

I was amazed not only at how many Adama sent with Kara but how many important characters. I don't think they're any too happy with Kara right now. No she's not a cylon at all and as for the ship of lights idea, I don't think that's it. Not sure where you were referring to, Alluveal, in regards to RM saying he would like to redo that concept?

All I recall ever reading from RM was that there would be no other aliens ever in this series, only humans and cylons. Now if he redoes the concept within the confines of what he's established that could be interesting.

As I stated before, the hybrids seem to have some level of precognition. I think the hybrids are who's really pulling the strings here. Hell, the first hybrid was seen by the old centurions as a god. There's something in that...I'm telling you.

It is possible that Kara met some wormhole phenomenon that messed with time. To her that journey was only about 6 hours, but she had been gone for over 2 months. You go messing with time like that and it could well have affected her ship's apparent age. Remember, they verified that the numbers on the engines were the same...it was the same ship.

Besides, if these "light beings", which I agree were the dumbest idea the original series ever had, were good, then why is Kara seen by the first hybrid as this bringer of doom to the human race? Though, I have another interpretation of that line anyway; Kara will spell the end of the human race as they know it. She is the key to ushering in the new human/cylon race somehow. Maybe, maybe not, but it's worth a think.

As for when they find earth...I do believe that the concept of "it's all happened before. It will all happen again," is very important in attempting to understand at what point in earth's history they will eventually find it. I have often thought that earth was not a colony but was the first homeworld and that the 13th colony was the move from earth to Kobol, not the other way around, though it was said during the time on Kobol that the 13th tribe had left some few years before the other tribes in an attempt to avoid the bloodshed they knew was coming. Could that group have been looking for the original earth and the texts became crossed somehow? It's an interesting idea anyway.

As for the cylons being older, that's not possible since we know that in the new series we will see the birth of the cylons as we know them and that takes place 50 years in the past and we know that the first cylon war was only 40 years in the past. Could there have been some long ago previous cylon-esque creation and rebellion that plays into all of this? Well, yes..."this has all happened before and it will all happen again." But how the cylons know more about the holy texts is still a bit of a mystery, however, we don't know that they haven't spent a great deal of time on Kobol during those 40 years of silence. Who knows what they learned.

I wanted to see the 3's resurrected this episode. I hope it happens soon. Can never get enough Lucy Lawless. But, the rift is riveting to say the least, and makes me uncomfortable more than anything. Same way I felt when they fast forwarded on New Caprica and it all felt so disjointed and surreal. But, good things came from that. Perhaps from this as well.

I, too, was hoping that we would see the 3's come back in this ep, but I don't think we, the fans, get off that easily (no dirty thoughts on that one you str8 boys). RM has stated that we won't find out who the 5th cylon is until later in the season. I believe the 3's return will play heavily into that revelation; therefore, she can't return until late in the season.

If he was (for argument sake,) the other models don't know who the other 5 are--they have either had their programming erased on that level, or they were programmed without that knowledge? Not sure. She wouldn't have recognized him. She didn't recognize Chief, Anders, Tigh or Tory.

Two people that RM has been adamant about not being a cylon are Baltar and Kara. So you can at least count them out.

I think you are absolutely right. They are unique. Moore suggested they will "redefine what it is to be a cylon." I also think they are w/o copies. I don't imagine they download just like the others. Perhaps they can be revived with consciousness (memory) in tact or something. I can't wait to find out, though.

I agree, they are unique. With each human-form incarnation, I believe the cylons became more and more human. The final five therefore would represent the pinnacle of their evolution along human lines, with the 5th being the top. I don't think the final five have the same agenda as the other cylons started out with and which Cavil seems to still have. I think the ultimate move on their part is joining the two races, human and cylon, whether they're aware of it or not. I believe that this other plan is what Natalie and her followers (not to mention Athena, originally Boomer and D'anna) are all starting to understand, albeit in pieces and very slowly.

Well, if we go off model numbers, then 1's were made first, then 2's, etc. Let me repost the list of known cylon numbers:

1. Cavil
2. Leoben
3. D'Anna
4. Simon
5. Doral
6. Six
8. Sharon

7 is out of order. Perhaps the first 8 were the same model, leading me to surmise that #7 can download and exists as the others do. 7, 9, 10, 11, and 12 are the final five. The last four are perhaps the different "type" of models. My guess is that they are Chief, Tigh, Tory and Anders. The one that is yet unrevealed is #7 (which is also a very holy and godly number if I remember correctly!)

Interesting point. I hadn't realized that the Sharon's were the 8's until you pointed it out. Tory's model could be the 7's, but it's strange that the power-behind-the-skinjobs would skip a model like that in determining the final five that the others weren't supposed to think about. That could be an important little piece of info going forward. Thanks for pointing it out.

Well, that's my post at the moment.

CE
 
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I didnt mind the "Ship of Lights" idea in the original series --- only that they made them come back two to three times, which ruined their mystery and awe. It was basically an angels vs demons thing in that episode. Didn't say they were aliens, just higher beings. In this version of BSG they could be "ascended" (to steal an SG1 phrase) people from the thirteenth tribe, or of the original ancestors of Kobol, or a lot of other things. I'm not saying it will follow the original concept to the tee (perhaps no ship of lights at all) but I'm guessing it is playing somewhere along those lines.
 
This is from an interview with Ron Moore :

Q1. There's speculation that Count Iblis' counterpart in this series is the as-yet-unseen Cylon God. Is there any possibility that elements of the original series "War of the Gods" storyline may weave themselves into the new series?

A1. While I have thought of incorporating the Count Iblis/Ship of Lights mythology from the original show into the series, I've pretty much decided not to go there for now. The theological construct we've been establishing seems more interesting to me at this point and I don't think Iblis will be part of the current show.

I recall there being speculation that he was toying with the idea. From the sounds of this, he toyed, then dropped, but maybe not. The "for now" part leads one to wonder, though. Logically speaking, I don't think Moore will go there, but the door is left open (even just a crack,) and that's enough to entertain the idea, as absurd as it might be!

On Tory...

I also think she is feeling more free, perhaps thinking, "well, I'm a cylon, I should just embrace this." I'm not sure what's going to happen with the explanation of the baby and the airlock.

Something I am remembering from the episode is how Tigh was talking to Tory and Chief. He seemed extremely perturbed by the meeting and irritated. I know Tigh is gruff, but before he seemed more stoic and "well, this is what it is, and I'm the man I am." Now, it's like "frack this and frack you, ya toasters..." Wonder if there's more to read in that. Will have to wait and see.

Cavil...
That was very interesting what he said. He IS #1, though, and I presume the first fully functioning skinjob created (perhaps there were failures in the past?) He seems to be one of logic and fatherhood in a sense. Leoben (oddly enough #2 model) is almost the opposite end--very esoteric and mystic, considered the wise-man of the bunch. But, I do find it odd that Cavil seems to be the only one who isn't willing to imagine outside the lines of his machine mind. Though, the first thing that comes to mind on this is him bonking Ellen Tigh in season 3. He apparently had some "human" needs, or he was just playing her.

As I stated before, the hybrids seem to have some level of precognition. I think the hybrids are who's really pulling the strings here. Hell, the first hybrid was seen by the old centurions as a god. There's something in that...I'm telling you.

I'm trying to recall what you are speaking of specifically? Was this in Razor? Or in another episode? I'm having a brain cloud. (The hybrid being seen as a god by the old Centurions.)

On the 3's (Lucy Lawless)....

I think she'll be back sooner rather than later, but that's just a guess. She doesn't have to tell them what she saw, and furthermore, who is to say her memory core will be fully in tact right away? She may have to dig deep to recover those memories.

With each human-form incarnation, I believe the cylons became more and more human. The final five therefore would represent the pinnacle of their evolution along human lines, with the 5th being the top. I don't think the final five have the same agenda as the other cylons started out with and which Cavil seems to still have. I think the ultimate move on their part is joining the two races, human and cylon, whether they're aware of it or not. I believe that this other plan is what Natalie and her followers (not to mention Athena, originally Boomer and D'anna) are all starting to understand, albeit in pieces and very slowly.

That would make sense. Cavil is the most logical of the bunch. Eight is considered the "weaker" model--prone to fall in love and to follow more than anything, and obviously capable of switching sides and breaking outside the model mode.

Ones could be the most machine-like, then the further down you go, they get more humanlike?
 
I don't know that she's necessarily evil though.

Murdering innocent people = evil.

Alien thing inside her? What alien thing? Did I miss something?

I think that was referring to her post-sex monologue about not feeling she was insider her own body and such.
 
a BIT? :p

The way they introduced the character of Tory was pretty odd, and I agree with what's been said - that it's odd how we see all her pain at handling being a cylon when we don't get anything of the sort from the characters we actually know.

But, georgeous woman randomly killing innocent people? It's got something.
 
I'm trying to recall what you are speaking of specifically? Was this in Razor? Or in another episode? I'm having a brain cloud. (The hybrid being seen as a god by the old Centurions.)

Yeah, it was in Razor. I believe it was Athena that gives the back story there. The old centurions, or at least a group of them, saw the first hybrid as god and followed him. That's why they were seperated from the rest of the cylons and still had the old centurions.

As for Tory, I don't think she's finished going down whatever trail she's going down now. And I don't know that she's "evil" but merely in some form of protective mode. Protecting herself and the other 4 as well as the baby. We've all seen how the cylons seem to go all overprotective-nutso over the new half-breed babies. It was perhaps even some programming kicking in. She's never been violent before...I'm still not sure she, herself, is. Time will tell.

Ones could be the most machine-like, then the further down you go, they get more humanlike?

Exactly. Something similar to this was done on SG-1 with the human-form replicators. Number Five (ironically) was more human in his feelings and sympathies, until Sam betrayed him. The first human-from, #1, was more machine-like and hard. Wouldn't surprise me if there was a little inspiration taken from what SG-1 did. They're certainly similar enough on some levels.

The way they introduced the character of Tory was pretty odd, and I agree with what's been said - that it's odd how we see all her pain at handling being a cylon when we don't get anything of the sort from the characters we actually know.

Well, I don't think we've seen everyone else's "issues" yet. It appears from next week's trailer that it's about to be Tigh's turn. Seems he be seeing his dead wife in his head. Sounds familiar. It also appears that Caprica may sense that the final five are in the fleet but still won't know who they are since she apparently is going to jump Tigh and give him a few taps on the ole noggin in the next ep as well. I can't wait!

CE
 
Ya know, I've never watched SG-1 or any of the spin-offs. I loved the movie, though. It will likely be an undertaking this summer when I'm out of school and can abuse my Netflix again. :)

And yes, the cylons are very protective. I remember Caprica-6-in-baltar's head telling Baltar that if he told Sharon she was a cylon in season 1, some kind of cylon defensive programming might kick in and waste him. And I agree, they are freakishly weird about the human/cylon hybrids. I also think she is in defensive/protective mode, but I also think she's pretty darn quick to embrace it. Especially in the trailer when she tells Chief, "we were made to be perfect. Think about what we are."

I don't think they WERE made to be perfect. I think the last models were made to be quite flawed--perhaps trying to implement more humanity (programming) within them. Maybe they thought it would help produce a child as I recall Athena telling Starbuck (in The Farm) that they have had no successes so far (well, until Athena and Helo got lucky,) and they think the key has something to do with love.

One thing Tory, Tigh, Anders and Chief have in common is that they are extremely passionate individuals who have been torn up and spit out by love or love has effected them deeply.

Tory crying during sex.
Tigh and his tumultuous relationship with Ellen.
Chief and his love for Boomer then his love for Cally.
Anders and his love for Starbuck.

They are very passionate models, very eager to find that connection or to maintain it at any cost.

As for Tory's introduction to the series, it was kind of like, "hello, I'm the new aide to the president," a few episodes after Billy was offed. She was just kind of there and now she's a major player. That said, it doesn't phase me much as they seem to give a certain amount of love and screen time to the secondary characters: Hotdog, Kat, Racetrack, etc.

Kat's last episode was one of the best of season 3. That said, the nuggets sure are dwindling away. I hope they keep Hotdog around. He could be what Wedge was for the Star Wars franchise. :)
 
I'm starting to convince myself that it's the non-human cylons that were supposed to be in charge of the human-looking cylons, not vice versa, and that that "last cylon" has something to do with that. That there was a revolution of some sort, hence the genocide, hence the current civil war, hence all the internal secrecy within the Cylon nation.

This would also explain Xena Warrior Cylon's reaction and apology at seeing the final Cylon.
 
OK I gotta ask at this point.

Is anyone else out there as CONFUSED AS FUCK about Season 4 of BSG so far as I am?!?!

I like to think I'm a pretty bright guy and I "get" a lot of "intelligent TV" but man. I watched tonight's episode, and I didn't feel like I was watching the same show, or the same characters. This season so far has gone off on such a tangent that I don't even recognize it. I get that they are going to want to go for some big religious themes this season but all I gotta say about that is *yawn*.

I honestly don't know where they are going, and how the hell they got here from Season 3. This show seems so far to have been totally turned up on end.

At this point I really REALLY am just hoping they do a good job of wrapping this show up this season and ending it right. I swear if it ends up to be some artsy/fartsy ambiguous ending open to artistic interpretation to people with PHDs, I'm really gonna be pissed.

I've got nothing to discuss about this episode tonight, cause I really dont know what I just saw. I was close to getting some meaning out of some of it, but really ended up spending most of the hour realizing that this show could be on the verge of the biggest downturn ever. I hope they pull this together and get this season going....
 
You know what I think bothers me? Its this feeling I have. I feel that between the end of Season 2, and the start of Season 3, this show changed, albeit subtly at first. It stopped being about the story and the characters first, and started being about making statements.

Season 3 started off with a big statement and parallels to Iraq. Ended with some big political statements with the War Crimes trials. This season is starting off on religious differences and conflict. What happened to the story of BSG in all of this?

Sci-Fi is great because it CAN tell important stories THROUGH the context of a show. Babylon 5 did this well. But you can't get to the point where your purpose BECOMES making statements about what is wrong with the world at the EXPENSE of the show and the characters, and I think I am feeling that is where BSG is now.

I think RDM might have listened to a little too much of the hype around this show. The blogs and specials from all his peers about how "important" this show is. It just became too big for its britches, and its failing so far because of it.

I believe it started to go off its rails with the start of Season 3 and has been slipping more and more since. Sure there have been some glimpses of greatness in the middle, but they are getting fewer and farther between.

I just hope this show stops trying to make all these big important statements, and delivers on its initial promise and premise, and ends up on the solid, gritty, and REAL aspect that it started on. I know. Odd saying real about a Sci-Fi show. But that is where it made its impact, and its pretty far from that now.
 
I can't say I'm entirely on board with you guys. I enjoyed the episode. Chief's downward spiral is tragic yet riveting. Him looking at his son was creepy. It makes me consider the Last Supper image. Is he going to harm his son? And I think he really did love Callie, he's just grieving and assuming he's only a robot.

Tigh and Six really have me intrigued. He wants so badly to understand what he is and who he is and the guilt he feels for killing his wife is probably eating him up inside.

Tory kind of bothers me a bit. The more I think about it, though, the more I think she's #7 and one of the older models. Her character is irritating me, though, I can't exactly explain why. Maybe it's the big "jump" from quiet yet assertive assistant to the president to sadistic, sex-crying zealot Baltar follower. Too much, too soon, but perhaps it would have developed slowly had the show been given more seasons.

I am enjoying the scenes between the president and Adama even more.

That said, the president is on a crash course for tyrant. I will say that if Lee's only job this season is to sit in a room with the representatives of the 12 colonies and constantly go against Laura, it's going to get old . . . very quickly.

I guess Moore has led me (a fan) to safe ground numerous times (after severely rocking the boat.) I am just along for the ride this time. I nearly ruined Season 3 for myself because I kept waiting and anticipating what might happen, and it moved along too slowly and in other directions and I didn't enjoy it like I did the second time around (on DVD.)

Ok, as for the Women of BSG link. WOW! Hotties!
 
It's not that I didn't enjoy it; I just wasn't sure what I came away with from watching the episode. I'm not a fan of Tigh's character, but I did enjoy him the most out of all of this episode. I don't like the turn that Roslin's made this season; I wouldn't be surprised if the story ends up having Lee lead an impeachment against her by the end. Baltar's religious awakening, if can even be called that, is coming off a little too heavy handed to me. It just doesn't quite feel organic enough for me. And I am getting tired of Tory.
 
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