Galactica Season 4 (Spoilers Within)

[Galahad]

I don't mind a sci-fi story having characters that believe in God, I just don't like the story presenting God as a real being that actually acts in the story. If it's some story that isn't sci-fi, I don't mind a God character, but my expectations of sci-fi is that it's more realistic than other genres, and the reality is that if God exists, we don't have any proof of that existence whatsoever.

But with respect, you are letting your own world view cloud your opinion of what science fiction is (and I'm not pointing the finger, admittedly I do the same).


I'm with Recoil on this though... it really doesn't matter,or at least it shouldn't.

 

[Recoil]

It would be one thing, and very VERY Deus Ex Machina if they pulled the God thing out of their rear ends totally. But frankly, God has been involved in this show since the miniseries. Its ALWAYS been part of the mythos and the dialogue.....to the point it really got annoying at times. So its really tough to call an ending involving God in some way, shape, or form, totally DEM given it has been an intergral part of the series for its entire run. I didn't have a huge issue with it, because it was downplayed more that I thought it would be, which was nice IMO.

 

[Chilli]

I don't think it makes it not-Science-Fiction. I just think it's lame to set up big mysteries, and have the solution be that it was gods, angels, fate, destiny, or just "is" for some reason.

 

[Sindatur]

I don't think it makes it not-Science-Fiction. I just think it's lame to set up big mysteries, and have the solution be that it was gods, angels, fate, destiny, or just "is" for some reason.

Why? Every other show explains it really wasn't God. This show has never hid from the fact that God is involved. What's wrong with one show deciding not to explain God away?

 

[vacantlook]

Why should any of that matter?

Sci-Fi

Science. Fiction.

There was plenty of science in BSG. Also some fiction. Why does having God as a mild plot device get people on the whole "it isn't science fiction" soapbox? Makes no sense.

Where is the scientific proof of God? Oh wait, there is NONE.

But with respect, you are letting your own world view cloud your opinion of what science fiction is (and I'm not pointing the finger, admittedly I do the same).

It's not a clash of world view, it's an expectation of science, and there is absolutely zero scientific proof of God. There's a bunch of people who believe in God because other people tell them he exists and they have personal emotional reactions to things, but there is no proof of God. Like I said, I don't have a problem with characters believing in God. Hell, even if they have just left the hallucinations Baltar was having as just in his own head, that would've been fine, but it was once it was presented as being real-word angels truly guided by God that it went flying out the window and ceased to be anything even slightly based in science. It was one thing for the characters to talk about God from the basis of their perspectives and stuff, but it was totally different for the show to present the existence of God as absolutely true.

 

[Sindatur]

Where is the scientific proof of God? Oh wait, there is NONE.



It's not a clash of world view, it's an expectation of science, and there is absolutely zero scientific proof of God. There's a bunch of people who believe in God because other people tell them he exists and they have personal emotional reactions to things, but there is no proof of God. Like I said, I don't have a problem with characters believing in God. Hell, even if they have just left the hallucinations Baltar was having as just in his own head, that would've been fine, but it was once it was presented as being real-word angels truly guided by God that it went flying out the window and ceased to be anything even slightly based in science. It was one thing for the characters to talk about God from the basis of their perspectives and stuff, but it was totally different for the show to present the existence of God as absolutely true.

Again, Why? Why can't one Sci-Fi show end in (in your opinion, fantasy) a God being behind it all? And... Like "Over Here" Couldn't a more advanced race be guiding all this making it appear "Godly"? If this was a Stargate Franchise show, the next series could blow the doors off the whole God aspect, showing us glimpses of their civilization?

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I don't mind a sci-fi story having characters that believe in God, I just don't like the story presenting God as a real being that actually acts in the story. If it's some story that isn't sci-fi, I don't mind a God character, but my expectations of sci-fi is that it's more realistic than other genres, and the reality is that if God exists, we don't have any proof of that existence whatsoever.

I agree. I don't mind listening about the Cylon God or the Lords of Kobol in almost every episode, but I think that RDM cheated the viewers of his show by creating so many mysteries and resolving them with one EXTREMELY DUMB answer -

"God did it !"

It's just the lamest explanation ever, especially in a science - fiction show.

 

[Alluveal]

He "instinctively" told the story? Yup, it shows. Plots and characterizations fluctuated at whatever direction the whim was blowing in the wind at the time. And the story suffered for it.

(Agree)

As a writer, he made so many mistakes, but I think the strengths of the program definitely pulled him through when it otherwise would have failed miserably.

I agree that characters and storylines can form more organically, but there has to be some semblance of order and thoughtfulness in place or it comes across as masturbatory and self-indulgent.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Again, Why? Why can't one Sci-Fi show end in (in your opinion, fantasy) a God being behind it all?

I think that no TV show (Sci-Fi or not) should ever end in a "God behind it all", simply because a big percentage of its viewers may not be religious at all (including me) and such an ending may seem like a huge betrayal of their trust in the series.

People always expect to see reasonable explanations and logical conclusions at the end of each story. This ending was an insult to all the non-religious viewers, who invested so much time in this show.

 

[Sindatur]

I think that no TV show (Sci-Fi or not) should ever end in a "God behind it all", simply because a big percentage of its viewers may not be religious at all (including me) and such an ending may seem like a huge betrayal of their trust in the series.

People always expect to see reasonable explanations and logical conclusions at the end of each story. This ending was an insult to all the non-religious viewers, who invested so much time in this show.

Why? Why can't the believed Sci-Fi Gods be "Vorlons being observed by ants"? You have science fiction in the Cylon war and the space flight. I agree the regular route to go is to make it in no uncertain terms that it's not "supernatural", but, why does the one that makes it "supernatural" have to be wrong?

 

[vacantlook]

Why can't one Sci-Fi show end in (in your opinion, fantasy) a God being behind it all?

The total absence of scientific proof of God is not a fantasy.

And... Like "Over Here" Couldn't a more advanced race be guiding all this making it appear "Godly"?

Unlike Babylon 5, BSG has been very specifically noted for a total lack of any beings other than human and the cylons, who were created by humans, and resultantly might as well be considered humans as a result. B5 established that alien species would parade around on other worlds as beings of light and beings of darkness. BSG never established even a slight bit of something similar, so it's a giant ass leap to force viewers to completely insert that into the story on their own, unlike for "Over Here" where one can expect the viewer to be familiar enough with B5 to know that such an alien masquerades has happened before.

If this was a Stargate Franchise show, the next series could blow the doors off the whole God aspect, showing us glimpses of their civilization?

But this is not Stargate, and it's not Babylon 5. BSG's internal continuity presents that God absolutely exists and is actively involved in making things happen. And I don't like that, mostly because it makes the story cheap, which is why deus ex machinas are broadly considered bad storytelling.

Why? Why can't the believed Sci-Fi Gods be "Vorlons being observed by ants"?

Because BSG explicitly left out alien beings. If that was to be an explanation for God and angels of the story, then there needed to be something that reveals that as a possibility within the story, not something that has to be shoved into the story from the outside to make the existence of God and angels within the story acceptable from a science perspective.

...but, why does the one that makes it "supernatural" have to be wrong?

Because, borrowing Truth_Seeker's iteration of it, having the plot resolution in a science-fiction show be "God did it!" is cheap, at best. I enjoy supernatural stories, but they have to be supernatural stories, not supernatural stories claiming to be science fiction up until the end of the story when the last paragraph of the story is "God did it!"

 

[Recoil]

I don't think it makes it not-Science-Fiction. I just think it's lame to set up big mysteries, and have the solution be that it was gods, angels, fate, destiny, or just "is" for some reason.

Chilli.

Maybe you missed it in my prior post. But its one thing to have a sci-fi show like Babylon 5 on for five seasons then out of the blue at the end write it all off to being "Gods influence." BSG had the "God factor" involved since DAY ONE. God was ALWAYS mentioned by the characters and heavily emphasized. I'm sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong. And I don't mean wrong in your beliefs. You don't think there is a God controlling fate, destiny or what have you, thats your opinion. But to think its "lame" story telling to have things turn out that way, when you have had it part of your story since the beginning? Thats just not fair in any stretch of the imagination.

BSG has always had God as part of its story, so it follows that God and Angels are part of its finale. And for their part----it wasn't overpowering.

Not sure your criticizm is fair...maybe colored a bit by your personal beliefs, but not judging things on their own merits.

 

[vacantlook]

...BSG had the "God factor" involved since DAY ONE. God was ALWAYS mentioned by the characters and heavily emphasized.

Except, from the beginning, the humans were depicted as being polytheistic. It was the cylons who believed in one god, and it was eventually revealed that that believe came from the centurions and that the Five fostered that belief in the human models in order to try to keep them from worshiping the Five. And it wasn't really until the sick boy was healed after Baltar was truly willing to let himself die after praying that God take his life instead that he actually finally fully believed in a single god. That this one singular god was absolutely real only came in the finale. Until then, the possibility that Baltar was just hallucinating or that the hallucinations were something else (other than God) were actual possibilities. But the finale made it absolutely God. God had some (still) unexplained plan, God wanted Hera to be born and survive for some unexplained reason (that she was Mitochondrial Eve Eve is a gimmicky twist that's kinda cute, but thoroughly meaningless in terms of why Hera was supposedly so important), God made Starbuck's dad teach her a piece of music that when assigned numbers by Kara later in life led to jump coordinates that led them to Earth, etc, all for what? All for nothing. All because God is God. No other reason. "Just 'cause". Boring!

Does anyone else envision Moore sitting somewhere reading National Geographic and reading an article about Mitochondrial Eve and thinking, "Hey, that'd be a neat hook for a sci-fi story." Hell, at least that part is in some manner based in science, unlike the presentation of the absolute existence of God in the show.

 

[Ranger1]

people, seriously. the ending was pretty good, it was admittedly unsurprising, but that doesn't detract from it.

all this GOD argument seems to be a lot of angry atheist bullshit. enjoy it for what it was, a show that mindblowing during its first season, poor during its second and third seasons and very good during its final season.

 

[Chilli]

Chilli.

Maybe you missed it in my prior post. But its one thing to have a sci-fi show like Babylon 5 on for five seasons then out of the blue at the end write it all off to being "Gods influence." BSG had the "God factor" involved since DAY ONE. God was ALWAYS mentioned by the characters and heavily emphasized. I'm sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong. And I don't mean wrong in your beliefs. You don't think there is a God controlling fate, destiny or what have you, thats your opinion. But to think its "lame" story telling to have things turn out that way, when you have had it part of your story since the beginning? Thats just not fair in any stretch of the imagination.

I did read this .. and I think it's partially right - but only partially.

Yes, god has been an important part of the show from the very beginning. But as VL has said, it's been people's BELIEF in god, or gods, that's been an important piece of the plot. Just a few episodes ago, we had Ellen explaining why she felt a need to implant the 7 new Cylon models with a belief in one true god. Never till the very last episode did we have god himself as *visible* part of the plot.

It probably is coloured by my personal beliefs, but I don't think I'd have to be an atheist to be bugged by this. Most religious people among my circle of friends believe that god never intervenes in a way that humans understand as god. "The Lord moves in mysterious ways", and all that. They'll never try to prove the existence of god to me, or to themselves, as they see this as futile.

Which, IMO, is the only way you can believe in god without rejecting science, as science can't prove god (or disprove god, for that matter).

I've got less of a problem with god being part of the plot, and more a problem with god having revealed himself so freely, through a Bob Dylan song, and a rubbish Opera house vision. After having stayed nicely incognito throughout the destruction of the colonies, et cetera, et cetera.

But yeah, it was only a minor part of a generally excellent series final.

 

[Alluveal]

Baltar

There's another force at work here. There always has been. It's undeniable, we've all experienced it. Everyone in this room has witnessed events that they can't fathom, let alone explain away by rational means. Puzzles deciphered in prophecy. Dreams given to a chosen few. Our loved ones dead. Risen. Whether we want to call that "God" or "gods" or some sublime inspiration or a divine force that we can't know or understand, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's here. It exists. And our two destinies are intertwined in its force.

Cavil

If that were true, and that's a big if, how do I know this force has our best interests in mind? How do you know that God is on your side, Doctor?

Baltar

I don't. God's not on any one side. God's a force of nature beyond good and evil. Good and evil, we created those. And we'll break the cycle. Break the cycle of birth, death, rebirth, destruction, escape, death. Well, that's in our hands and our hands only. Requires a leap of faith. Requires that we live in hope... not fear.

Moore said that there IS something there with Baltar, that it's not just his imagination. Now, whether or not we take this as God or something else, well, that's up to us. It could be another alien species of the universe unseen by the viewers. It could be God. It could be "spirits" not connected to a done God. Either way, I actually find it interesting that they're questioning the possibility of God, asking the same questions we ask as viewers.

I guess that I don't choose to see it as this huge God-reveals-all / God-is-behind-everything type deal.

What I do find interesting is how God was implemented throughout the entire series and it begs to be answered: why did the centurions find "one God" before everyone else? It's intriguing that the thing in the show that is the most "machine-like" adopted this concept. Perhaps it's the logical route. Whereas the skinjobs are more prone to emotional responses, the centurions perhaps not so much.

Anyway, just tossing this into the ring.

 

[Recoil]

A few things to keep in mind here:

1) I don't think "God" was ever directly a part of anything BSG. But I do believe the "Head" Six and Baltar were "Angels" of a sort.

2) The original BSG series had "Angels" and "the Devil" in it as well, but they took the more traditional Sci-Fi approach to them. They explained them as being very old beings (at least initially, and the series never got to revisit the concept much). The Angels floated around on a "Ship of Lights" and were called by themselves the Custodians or Guardians of the Universe. Some people thought this was a neat concept (me) others didn't like it. But they were keenly interested in the Galactica and its survivors.

3) RDM had stated that he didn't want to revisit the "Ship of Lights" concept in his version, even though he made MANY other tie-ins to the original series. He has said that many of the concepts brought forth by that Ship of Lights concept would be a part of his series. Taking a look at Head Baltar and Six, and what was done with Starbuck, I completely see it. (Starbuck was also of VERY keen interest to those on the Ship of Lights in the original series).

So from my POV, not only has this always been a part to a degree of this series, but it was also a part of the original series. The original series just took more of a traditional sci-fi approach to it (much like B5 may have with the First Ones, although JMS kept religious implications mostly out of it). So to the degree that its in this series, and the finale, I think it was OK and it worked for me given all of that. Ive also stated for some time that BSG doesnt do very well when it tries to bring in religion and other higher concepts to the show --- it was strongest in its realism aspects. I still think thats the case, and that they didn't execute things very well in that area, but still for the finale, I think it was done OK and handled better than at various points in the series.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I'm sorry that I have to be on the anti-series finale team, but it's obvious that "God did it !" is the most rediculous way to end a story.

I suspect that RDM never knew where his show was going and he came with the "God" soulution, because he was unable to explain most of the nonsense he had written during those 5 years.

What if JMS had blamed all of B5's mysteries on some kind of a god - for example Droshalla (the Drazi god).


Who wiped out Sinclair's memory during the Battle of the Line?

Droshalla did it !

Who destroyed Quadrant 37?

Droshalla again !

Who stole Babylon 4?

Guess what, it was Droshalla !

 

[Alluveal]

I don't think that's what the entire show is about, though. God didn't do any of this. Mankind did. Cylons did. The only thing that "God" had a part in (if you want to narrow yourself to that term, ok,) is give Baltar and resurrected "6" an angel on their shoulder (again, if you want to limit it to that concept,) and gave Starbuck the means to find Earth.

Everything else? I can't just chuck it up to "God." And some of you guys are a lot smarter than this. Why are you narrowing it all down to this one thing?

 

[Galahad]

Leaving the rants behind and discussing the actual episode again, it kinda fits with the whole Nephilim gig from Genesis though doesn't it?

When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Note: I'm not nearly stupid enough to try and key fictional events from BSG into the Biblical account or use one as an endorsement for the other. I'm just saying that it fits nicely with that is an obscure passage.

It's not entirely known what is meant by sons of God in that passage. Some think it means the mingling of righteous men with ungodly ones, others think it's angels getting it on with humans.

Anyway back to the episode and did anyone notice that Galactica performed her final jump with the flight pods deployed? Apart from all the structural damage, that was surely going to finish her off. Pegasus didn't have the same issues, but then, she was a later design.