Gunnery Pod (spoilers)

[Emfeeli]

I remember Dulann speaking about how Minbari took the aesthetic design of ships into account unlike humans. It seems they experiment more frequently with designs and prototypes. Maybe the weapons system on the Lindra is just that...

a twenty-year-old prototype.

And maybe it just wasn't very effective...the reason why we don't see it incorporated into the Victory or Excalibur.

no one ever claimed it was the most effective system in the movie--they just needed it to survive. (it did do a suspicious ammount of damage though).

Phil

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"And that, Mollari, is why it will not be your people, or mine, or the Gaim, or the Drazi or the Vorlons or the Shadows who in the end will stand astride the galaxy like giants. It will be the humans."
"I think you are the one who is mad, G'kar," Londo said. "I can choose just as well as the humans. I can choose to stay in this cell, with you, or I can choose to leave."
"Yes, but can you choose for there not to be a cell at all?"
"I don't understand," Londo said.
"Exactly," G'kar said. "Exactly."

 

[Kitaro Sasaki]

VALKENAR...

You are spot on with your comment on the uniqueness of the weapon pod of the "Liandra"!

I applaud you for that thought you posted!

Bravo to you VALKENAR! Bravo!

Cheers! -Warren-

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[channe]

Besides, it looks like Sarah was enjoying herself in there.

We must remember that these people aren't Earthforce. As Anla'shok, human Rangers take on the mantle of one thousand years of ALIEN tradition. They aren't soldiers, they aren't GROPOS, they aren't Marines.

The human way of doing things has been to yell "Fire" and press a button.

Now, the Minbari way of doing things is to have a very visceral fighting experience, or so I've seen. Which is why when a human goes for his or her PPG, a Minbari goes for his or her denn'bok.

As the Liandra was built before Minbari and Human contact ever came about... hey, it's going to be very, very Minbari.

I love the gunnery pod. It's one of the coolest things to come by science fiction in a while. Why?

It brings you in. Firing a button is so cold.

Having another human being in the midst of it all... creates in the scene another beast entirely.

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "I wonder," said Frodo, "but I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale."

 

[Recoil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by channe:
Riiiight. There's a reason why I failed physics.

There has to be a secondary system, in case the weapons officer gets injured, hurt, etc...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or gets a toe cramp. Or pulls a muscle.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

 

[Kitaro Sasaki]

I agree with you CHANNE about the "Gunnery Pod" being absolutely cool! It is so unique and definitely revolutionary for SCI FI television!

Thanks to JMS!

Geez. For once...there is FINALLY some original ideas...which, in my opinion, is very, very difficult to come by since most things have been done before...variations of things...

But the "Gunnery Pod" is fantastic! When I first saw the sequences being filmed...I thought to myself..."Wow...I have never seen something like this before! This is awesome! The concept is brilliant!"

And the fact that Douglas Netter and JMS had been thinking ahead of everyone else when they decided to film the B5 telemovies in widescreen!

There is a brilliant team behind this whole production...and they are extremely original in their thinking...far beyond most!

They (Douglas Netter and JMS) must be commended for the fact that they are always trying to push things further...be more creative, unique and original...

And in my mind, my opinion, they succeeded with spectacular results!

Cheers! -Warren-

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[Recoil]

Ok,

Aside from my little joke attempt above, I'll give some more practical feedback on the Gunnery Pod thingy as far as I see it.

I have always been a BIG fan of the Minbari use of viewscreens. The big 360 view screen on the Minbari cruisers is totally cool, and VERY effective. Giving the commander a full view of the entire battlefield and being able to communicate with all ships --- its no wonder they cleaned out clocks in the Earth Minbari War

.

That being said the Gunnery Pod is a logical step, especially for a smaller ship. It gives the weapons officer FULL view of the ship and everything around it, unlike the standard 'Trekish' bridges that we have seen in almost EVERY sci-fi series to date. This gunnery pod...is a first. So suspending the weapons officer in zero g in the middle of this 360 degree VR environment is a very good call.

Targeting: It seemed that her eye was scanned and is part of the system. No pushing on buttons, no typing in vectors to lock on targets. She looks, the computer locks on. Its that simple. This is also a step in the right direction. Aquiring targets by looking at them. Simple, and preceise.

Shooting: Now this is where things start to trail off IMO. The Weapons officer needs to kick or punch to shoot weapons. WHY? It makes little sense overall. First, you try standing still and spending 10 or more minutes kicking at nothing and punching at nothing and see how you feel. VERY strenuous. Even if you are in top shape, this is a lot of energy to exhert. This is not consistent with the easy use of targeting by sight. It is a lot of effort to shoot. Second, if ships are already targeted by eyesight, why would kicking in a specific direction dictate where shots go? And if it doesnt, is it simply the kicking ACTION that causes it to shoot? IMO this part needs to be adjusted a bit. EVERYTHING works seemlessly except the officer kicking and punching.

If you are going to stick a weapons officer in a zero g environment, with eyesight targeting, why not just have some virtual buttons and controls posted around the person for selecting weapons and shooting them? That makes more sense, and the officer can be COMPLETELY relaxed and in comfort in a zero g environment. Just hanging there, looking at targets, selecting the right weapon, and firing. Hell I bet they could use eyesight to select a menu of ships functions to fire the weapons. The kicking and punching doesnt fit.


So overall I think its a great concept, and a very new concept, even a logical concept. I just dont see the kicking and punching being something that would be a logical fit there. So I guess Id give it, in its current state a solid B+.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

[This message has been edited by Recoil (edited January 20, 2002).]

 

[Sherool]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recoil:


[snip]

Shooting: Now this is where things start to trail off IMO. The Weapons officer needs to kick or punch to shoot weapons. WHY? It makes little sense overall. First, you try standing still and spending 10 or more minutes kicking at nothing and punching at nothing and see how you feel. VERY strenuous. Even if you are in top shape, this is a lot of energy to exhert. This is not consistent with the easy use of targeting by sight. It is a lot of effort to shoot. Second, if ships are already targeted by eyesight, why would kicking in a specific direction dictate where shots go? And if it doesnt, is it simply the kicking ACTION that causes it to shoot? IMO this part needs to be adjusted a bit. EVERYTHING works seemlessly except the officer kicking and punching.

[snip]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I have said in a few other threads already keep in mind that this was (I asume) originaly desigend for and by the Warrior caste of the Minbari. Those guys are very proud of theyr skills and like nothing better than to kill theyr enemies up close and personal with they bare hands. They don't like to "hide behind" technolgy. When you consider that it doesn't seem THAT strange that they wouldn't be content with just pointing at a target and shout "die!" or whaterver, they are proud warrors and want to use theyr skills, even in space combat...

That's my interpretation anyway.


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[**DONOTDELETE**]

I can understand a warcruiser's command centre more easily. Standing in the command centre has several very obvious advantages:

1. No need for local gravity. This is something which can fail, causing a great deal of damage.

2. More than one person can direct fire and give commands. One can observe the left, another the right side.

3. They will not get exhausted. You look/point at the target, name the necessary ship or squadron and give the command. Computers distribute the commands and relay target data.

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In case of Liandra, there are several differences:

1. You are not giving commands. The ship is small and has only one weapons officer. You are actually firing a variety of weapons.

2. While a fleet commander does not bother with choosing weapons, Liandra's weapons officer has to.

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Having stated that, I would like to imagine myself as a Minbari engineer and try to describe how I would have built it:

1. No need for a separate room. The command bridge (or part thereof) becomes the battlefield. No delay in getting ready for battle, you can hear the captain and navigator right next to you.

2. No floating, no local gravity. This would let many people handle the weapons systems. Four people can handle four times more targets, they have four times as much attention.

Two can observe the upper "sensor hemisphere", two deal with the lower one. No foot action needed, no rotating needed, immediate visibility, immediate reaction.

3. Eyes used for target selection, hand gestures for selecting weapons and strength. You point a finger, the ship shoots "carefully". You whack with a fist, the ship applies full power.

Gestures of the other hand might allow you to specify where to hit, how to hit: plasma or laser, engines, command bridge or weapons. I believe that this would be equally neat and much more realistic.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 20, 2002).]

 

[The One Who Was]

I liked it and it made one of my favorite sceens

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Riding in the Comets tail </font></td></tr></table>

look spectacular....IMHO of course

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"If you want to make us stronger, attack and we unite."
Adam Mayblum, WTC Survivor

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"Faith Manages"

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

One more idea regarding the gunnery pod, connected to how the same stuff gets done on Minbari cruisers. We are all used to scrolling our computer screens. The screen stays where it is. We stay where we are. The image scrolls. Easy. Practical. Nothing new.

It would be enormously easier for the computer to rotate the image -- instead of the weapons officer floating and rotating *instead* of the image. The weapons officer would stand. No floating, no gravity manipulation, no dubious foot-kicks. Just a precise rotation of the surrounding image, a mean look and a meaningful gesture. Target destroyed.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 20, 2002).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

In my opinion, the weapons pod is not comparable with the command center of Minbari cruisers. The reasons are several:

The command center usually is consistently manned. It does not require an officer to jump into a hole, thereby losing precious time.

The command center can be manned by multiple people. Thus, all directions can be supervised simultaneously. The weapons pod only allows the weapons officer to look into one direction at a time. While she can turn around, she still has a rear and a flank.

Both points mentioned so far make the ship unnecessarily vulnerable to surprise attacks. A holographic display showing the ship and its surroundings within weapons range on the bridge itself would be much more practical.

Punching and kicking leaves the firing physically challenging. I thought the point of firearms was getting away from that? What _purpose_ is there in deteriorating the capabilities of the weapons officer over time in longer battles? More, the mechanism severely limits the number of guns that can be fired, and especially the number that can be fired simultaneously.While the Warrior Caste might find it aesthetically pleasing, war has rarely been an environment for aesthetics to triumph over practicality. While style may influence form, form follows function much more strongly. If it doesn't do the job, there's no point in keeping it.


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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

 

[Kraig]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Punching and kicking leaves the firing physically challenging. I thought the point of firearms was getting away from that? What _purpose_ is there in deteriorating the capabilities of the weapons officer over time in longer battles? More, the mechanism severely limits the number of guns that can be fired, and especially the number that can be fired simultaneously.While the Warrior Caste might find it aesthetically pleasing, war has rarely been an environment for aesthetics to triumph over practicality. While style may influence form, form follows function much more strongly. If it doesn't do the job, there's no point in keeping it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Extra effort to fire the guns might serve as feedback to the Weapons Officer that the power level to the guns is dropping, or that a weapon is failing. Increased effort might be required to fire the gun if the weapon system is not fully recharged or not operating nominally.

This is just a guess since the weapon operating system has not yet been fully explained. I only hope this gets turned into a series so that the explanations can come in the fullness of time.

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Remember dear readers, you heard it here first. Off the record, on the Q.T., and very hush-hush - Danny DeVito as Sid Hudgens in L.A. Confidential

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kraig:
Extra effort to fire the guns might serve as feedback to the Weapons Officer that the power level to the guns is dropping, or that a weapon is failing. Increased effort might be required to fire the gun if the weapon system is not fully recharged or not operating nominally.

This is just a guess since the weapon operating system has not yet been fully explained. I only hope this gets turned into a series so that the explanations can come in the fullness of time.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We would still have to ask the question whether it makes sense to do it this way. Extra effort is a fairly unspecific indicator, and might especially because of the way the weapons are fired easily be overlooked. Look at that oft-cited scene with the screaming and firing....do you think someone pumped full of adrenaline like that will realize something is amiss? The extra effort will simply be expended without being realised.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

 

[RW7427]

I think the gunnery pod is kinda cool. That way Sarah can see what's comin much better and have a much better way of reacting to it. Interesting concept indeed.

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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.

 

[Quagmire]

I have to agree with Recoil and some of the others. The pod is quite innovative and makes for some stunning visuals but the punches and kicks seem like an illogical contrivance. A handheld device with a button for different fingers corresponding to different weapons could be used.

A little fine tuning and this could be a halmark of a high quality, and long running, show.

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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny

 

[eirik]

"Silent", "Recoil", and "Lennier" made some points that I agree with regarding the gunnery pod. I would like to add another point.

Generally, I like the separate pod floating thing. Though "Recoil's" (?) point about having fire control in the bridge with multiple people accessing it is a good point. However, I suppose one can offer a rationale for the gun port as it is. Ultimately, I love it!!!

But I think the punching and kicking is very impractical in a combat environment consisting of multiple targets moving at incredibly fast relative speeds.

The targeting and tracking with the eyes, as is done on Cobra and Apache helicopters today is reasonable...for a human controlled targeting and tracking system. Makes you wonder why they're human controlled, BTW. But that's another subject.

The fire control system, the punching and kicking, is what I find grossly impractical. Consider modern day special operations forces with missions in urban scenarios, where a soldier could be shot at from any direction at any time. They generally DO NOT employ the M-16A2 or anything similar when they will mostly be in such an urban environment. Don't get me wrong, the M-16A2 is an excellent general purpose weapon. Anyway, the special forces employ an automatic weapon of considerably shorter length (shorter barrel).

[BTW, there are other reasons for using a shorter gun barrel but only this one applies to the gun pod.]

The reason for this is simple and perhaps more easily understood if one compares an M-16 to a pistol. If a soldier sees an adversary coming from his/her blind side, he/she has to rotate the end of the firearm toward the adversary. While in either case, the soldier might have to rotate either weapon a 110 degrees, for example. The actual translation, distance, or arc the end of the weapon travels is considerably greater. True, the tip of the M-16 moves faster than that of the pistol during this rotation but the rotational inertia of the M-16 ultimately means that the the shorter length weapon points toward the target a split second faster. In this scenario, that has represented a significant enough advantage that special ops forces, when they KNOW, they will primarily be in such scenarios, will use a shorter barreled weapon for quicker response.

Now back to the fire control of the gun pod--the kicking and punching. The time required to throw a punch is radically longer that that of twitching a finger or squeezing a trigger, particularly when one considers the compounding effect of on-going combat. The fire control time adds up and ultimately lowers productivity progressively. So, the kicking and punching is not the most effective means for minimizing reaction/fire control time.

Lennier made an excellent point about how the degree of a punch or kick can effectively adjust the power output or weapon selection of her firepower. However, any full-time gamer could probably achieve quicker reaction times with a Microsoft game console attached to their hip while floating in the gun pod. I think the ISA can do a hell of a lot better than Microsoft!!! Hell, if little Apple Computer, which spends a fraction of what Microsoft spends on research can keep up technology-wise, the ISA...well! Okay, I'm getting extreme.

Winding things up here...when the series is ultimately broadcast (positive thinking!!!), I'd like to see an older Minbari visiting the crew for some mission. The Minbari observes Sarah's use of the pod and makes a few suggestions in the subtle, face-saving Minbari way. He/she shows her that she can accomplish the same functionality with far less effort, twitching this finger versus that or wearing a mouth/facile piece or who knows.

Alternatively, we know from season one of B5 that there are Vicars (humans with implants that can record thought) and Garibaldi himself said that humanity had learned how to record thought to some degree. And, 2001 Earth has already achieved some limited mind interface capabilities.

I'd like to see the Liandra acquire a gun pod upgrade that features a neural interface. (story-wise) It would have been in there normally but since the crew had to depart for Beta 9 or wherever in such a hurry and for only a "milk run", they were unable to install the neural device in time for that mission, so Sarah had to use the back-up system. Bottom-line, I don't like the kicks and punches. They seem too "TNT" to me (now that's a low blow!!!).

All in all, really loved the movie!!! And to me, G'Kar nearly stole the show. Lots of fun!!!

Eirik

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It never ends; it only changes!

[This message has been edited by eirik (edited January 20, 2002).]

 

[Lyta]

I am disappointed at what appears to be the minority opinion of the gunnery pod and Sarah's handling of it.

I really enjoyed that part of the movie a lot and got a real "kick" out of seeing her in the mine field. I even enjoyed the "over the top" screaming but it just makes me smile and think how much she rocks!

Seems that it would need a lot of adrenaline to throw that many kicks and punches in such a short period of time. Heck, I would be screaming too. :chuckle:

I guess I don't really care how much "sense" it makes ... I just liked the action and seeing a battle scene from another angle and perspective. It was a bold and unique move on JMS' part and I respect that. Where it really fails for me is more in the SFX area when the action is focused on Sarah.

Plus, I think a lot of you are thinking too much in "human" terms. I like Valkenar's and Sherool's theories about the pod. We do not know what the original purpose of this ship was or what the Minbari were thinking when they built it. It could have been an experimental ship and not really intended for long battles for all we know. Also, I really doubt that Sarah is the -only- one trained to man the pod.

I suppose I enjoyed the movie for what it was meant to do ... entertain! It has been so long since we have seen anything new from the B5 universe ... maybe my enthusaism has gotten to the better of me.

Still, I know all the hard work that went into the movie so I have very little to nitpick.

As for how Sarah is portrayed ... I do not have enough experience to distinguish if it is a fault of the script or the acting. She comes off a bit "green" to me but then again, I don't expect all the actors to hit everything on the mark the first time out. Heck, I didn't like Sheridan when he first arrived and look at him now!

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Monica Hübinette | Abyss : B5 <- New & Improved!
And the ship looking for them, would find it, find them, find us, find you. A brilliant cascade of cause and effect. Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else. --G'Kar in B5LR

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

How long does the sequence last for? The impression I get from reading this thread (and the 'disgusted' OTT thread), is that the offending sequence runs throughout the entire film!
If we are not careful, all the threads containing negative comments about *minor* details will overtake all the positive ones.

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'I plan to live forever, or die trying' - Villa Blake's 7

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Right from the start I got the impression that the gunnery pod would be a "love it/hate it" sort of thing.

To me (having not seen the movie yet) it sounds interesting - certainly something we are not used to seeing in SFTV.

As the ship was designed by and for the Minbari, it could be that they have greater tolerance to physical activity in that sort of environment, who knows, perhaps we will find out.

As for the ship itself - 20 years is not old. As stated in another thread, consider how long the B52 has been in service with the USAF. Some of those aircraft will be significantly older than 20 years.

The gunnery pod itself could have been a technology trial to see whether it was workable in a combat situation, and the fact that we have not seen this type of ship before an indication that they decided it wasn't so didn't build many.

Just one more reason why the Liandra is a pig of a ship to be given to captain.

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DaveC
"Want to talk socks?"

 

[Kribu]

All I can say is that it looked cool in the trailers and Sarah's trading card clip.

But I agree that it also sounds physically too demanding, if the battle is prolonged.

The kicking and punching looks great, but there should be some physically easier way to do this. I can buy the theory of Minbari liking such physical combat style, but even the Minbari should realise that on a ship with just one weapons specialist, they can't rely on that person never tiring.

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"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com