TJGuitar85
Regular
Would she have been in Crusade?
Would Gideon and her have "a thing" so soon after Marcus's death?
Makes you wonder...
TJ
Would Gideon and her have "a thing" so soon after Marcus's death?
Makes you wonder...
TJ
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If Claudia stayed for S5...
- Thread starter TJGuitar85
- Start date
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Ivanova in Crusade (Spoilers for B5 S4/5)
Interesting question. This is an aspect of the "what if Ivanova had stayed" scenario that I have never considered.
Hmmmm....
1) Would she have developed a relationship with Gideon?
No. It would have been completely out of character. I'm sure the only reason the JMS wrote that relationship in for Crusade is that Lochley was so much of a blank slate after season five that he had room in which to explore and change the character. As usual one character doesn't simply pick up the arc of another and put it on like a suit.
Ivanova would just have come off a brief, doomed affair with Byron, one that would drive home for her the point that Marcus was really "the one" for her. No way she would have hopped in the sack with Gideon - or anyone else for that matter. The bitter, disappointed Ivanova of "Sleeping in Light" was written as the product of S5 and what that year did to the character. She never married. She may never have allowed herself to love again. She certainly wouldn't have fallen into a relationship with Matthew Gideon a mere five years after Byron's martyrdom and six years after Marcus's death. Heck, she still hasn't given up on Marcus in 2281!
2) Would the Ivanova character have continued in Crusade?
Unclear. A lot of factors went into JMS's decision about which character(s) would carry over, including budget, the actors interest and what he wanted to do with the story. It is entirely possible that Ivanova wouldn't have been a semi-regular on Crusade. It is even possible that Ivanova wouldn't have remained as commander of Babylon 5. After the events of the final season, she too may have wanted to move on, and it may have always been JMS's plan to send her off to command a starship eventually. In that case Corwin may have been promoted at last and given the command. Which leads to a whole different line of speculation regarding Gideon. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Regards,
Joe
Interesting question. This is an aspect of the "what if Ivanova had stayed" scenario that I have never considered.
Hmmmm....
1) Would she have developed a relationship with Gideon?
No. It would have been completely out of character. I'm sure the only reason the JMS wrote that relationship in for Crusade is that Lochley was so much of a blank slate after season five that he had room in which to explore and change the character. As usual one character doesn't simply pick up the arc of another and put it on like a suit.
Ivanova would just have come off a brief, doomed affair with Byron, one that would drive home for her the point that Marcus was really "the one" for her. No way she would have hopped in the sack with Gideon - or anyone else for that matter. The bitter, disappointed Ivanova of "Sleeping in Light" was written as the product of S5 and what that year did to the character. She never married. She may never have allowed herself to love again. She certainly wouldn't have fallen into a relationship with Matthew Gideon a mere five years after Byron's martyrdom and six years after Marcus's death. Heck, she still hasn't given up on Marcus in 2281!
2) Would the Ivanova character have continued in Crusade?
Unclear. A lot of factors went into JMS's decision about which character(s) would carry over, including budget, the actors interest and what he wanted to do with the story. It is entirely possible that Ivanova wouldn't have been a semi-regular on Crusade. It is even possible that Ivanova wouldn't have remained as commander of Babylon 5. After the events of the final season, she too may have wanted to move on, and it may have always been JMS's plan to send her off to command a starship eventually. In that case Corwin may have been promoted at last and given the command. Which leads to a whole different line of speculation regarding Gideon. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Regards,
Joe
Re: Ivanova in Crusade (Spoilers for B5 S4/5)
Wasn't there some speculation that she'd be in "Crusade" at some point commanding her Warlock class ship (if they could get the actress)? Now, I know she got the ship at the end of season 4 as a way to write her out of the show, but I can't believe that JMS developed those ships (and the resulting short story) just because Claudia Christian left the show. I imagine he already had ideas about those destroyers - ideas we just haven't seen come to fruit yet (I'll keep hope and say yet instead of if ever /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) - since there's a very deep secret about them (that I won't spoil here for those who don't know). It's possible someone we know from B5 would have ended up on "Crusade" commanding one of those - and she'd be a prime candiate being the only command branch officer left who didn't already have a destiny somewhere else taking them away from EarthForce. Possibly JMS just moved up her story of when she'd get the ship. Of course, we'd have to speculate what would have happened in S5 (at least post Byron and pre-SiL) to how she decided to leave the station and was given command of a new class destroyer (which makes me wonder if JMS originally didn't plan for EarthForce to have those ships ready to launch so early). Ooo, speculations! ^___^
I agree that I can't see her with Gideon though. I'd imagine she'd just be an occasional guest star if she was on the show. Maybe if / when Gideon and company went rogue, Sheriden would have used a trusted friend like Ivanova (who had a history of going against the evils of Earth and already shared knowledge of the above dark secret with Sheriden - which somewhat ties into "Crusade" anyway) to be liason to Gideon if / when the president believed in his cause. *Sigh* Stupid TNT ...
Wasn't there some speculation that she'd be in "Crusade" at some point commanding her Warlock class ship (if they could get the actress)? Now, I know she got the ship at the end of season 4 as a way to write her out of the show, but I can't believe that JMS developed those ships (and the resulting short story) just because Claudia Christian left the show. I imagine he already had ideas about those destroyers - ideas we just haven't seen come to fruit yet (I'll keep hope and say yet instead of if ever /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) - since there's a very deep secret about them (that I won't spoil here for those who don't know). It's possible someone we know from B5 would have ended up on "Crusade" commanding one of those - and she'd be a prime candiate being the only command branch officer left who didn't already have a destiny somewhere else taking them away from EarthForce. Possibly JMS just moved up her story of when she'd get the ship. Of course, we'd have to speculate what would have happened in S5 (at least post Byron and pre-SiL) to how she decided to leave the station and was given command of a new class destroyer (which makes me wonder if JMS originally didn't plan for EarthForce to have those ships ready to launch so early). Ooo, speculations! ^___^
I agree that I can't see her with Gideon though. I'd imagine she'd just be an occasional guest star if she was on the show. Maybe if / when Gideon and company went rogue, Sheriden would have used a trusted friend like Ivanova (who had a history of going against the evils of Earth and already shared knowledge of the above dark secret with Sheriden - which somewhat ties into "Crusade" anyway) to be liason to Gideon if / when the president believed in his cause. *Sigh* Stupid TNT ...
Recoil
Regular
Re: Ivanova in Crusade (Spoilers for B5 S4/5)
That really doesnt make sense, as SiL was filmed at the end of S4 with her in it --- before she announced she wasn't coming back and before Crusade was even started. No, I dont think she was ever meant to be permanently lost and written out.
That really doesnt make sense, as SiL was filmed at the end of S4 with her in it --- before she announced she wasn't coming back and before Crusade was even started. No, I dont think she was ever meant to be permanently lost and written out.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Re: Ivanova in Crusade (Spoilers for B5 S4/5)
I think you've misunderstood something. Of course "SiL" was shot for S4, before Claudia left. But that episode would not have been any different had she stayed. Although the assumption was that there would be no season five, JMS and everyone else knew that Warner Bros. was still trying to place the show and that something might change. So the main storyline of S5 was already laid out.
No one is suggesting that Susan would have somehow been written out in any case, only that at the end of "Objects at Rest" she too might have left B5 and the memories it held for her, and been offered a transfer to a new command (like a Warlock-class destroyer) instead. And I think it likely that JMS had some vague plan to involve Ivanova and her ship in Crusade is personal issues didn't get in the way. Certainly the short story "Hidden Agendas" suggests that there was a point of contact between Ivanova's post-B5 career and the events in Crusade.
Regards,
Joe
I think you've misunderstood something. Of course "SiL" was shot for S4, before Claudia left. But that episode would not have been any different had she stayed. Although the assumption was that there would be no season five, JMS and everyone else knew that Warner Bros. was still trying to place the show and that something might change. So the main storyline of S5 was already laid out.
No one is suggesting that Susan would have somehow been written out in any case, only that at the end of "Objects at Rest" she too might have left B5 and the memories it held for her, and been offered a transfer to a new command (like a Warlock-class destroyer) instead. And I think it likely that JMS had some vague plan to involve Ivanova and her ship in Crusade is personal issues didn't get in the way. Certainly the short story "Hidden Agendas" suggests that there was a point of contact between Ivanova's post-B5 career and the events in Crusade.
Regards,
Joe
Re: Ivanova in Crusade (Spoilers for B5 S4/5)
Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant and Joe D said more clearly. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif The General Ivanova in SiL has obviousily had a long military career she doesn't care much more (at least not anymore) so presumably things would have happened after B5. I too think she would have left the station at OaR since it was pretty much that kind of episode - all the most main characters were leaving. Even if Ivanova was captain in season 5, she had already pretty much been running the station since season 2 (arguably even in season 1) since Sheriden was busy with the various wars and alliances he was the head of. Heck, even Corwin seemed to be running the station in "River of Souls", heh. Anyway, so I can see Ivanova passing the torch as everyone else did.
Also, didn't they already know CC was leaving by the time they shot SiL or did they shoot it earlier in the season? JMS had already written her character an out in "Raising Star" (even giving her the new Warlock ship) and the security camera footage shown during the telepath crisis in "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" Sheriden mentions Captain Lochley.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant and Joe D said more clearly. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif The General Ivanova in SiL has obviousily had a long military career she doesn't care much more (at least not anymore) so presumably things would have happened after B5. I too think she would have left the station at OaR since it was pretty much that kind of episode - all the most main characters were leaving. Even if Ivanova was captain in season 5, she had already pretty much been running the station since season 2 (arguably even in season 1) since Sheriden was busy with the various wars and alliances he was the head of. Heck, even Corwin seemed to be running the station in "River of Souls", heh. Anyway, so I can see Ivanova passing the torch as everyone else did.
Also, didn't they already know CC was leaving by the time they shot SiL or did they shoot it earlier in the season? JMS had already written her character an out in "Raising Star" (even giving her the new Warlock ship) and the security camera footage shown during the telepath crisis in "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" Sheriden mentions Captain Lochley.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Re: Ivanova in Crusade (Spoilers for B5 S4/5)
No, they didn't know Claudia was leaving, and the episodes you mention were not completed when you think they were. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Here's the approximate order in which things happened:
S4, including the final episode, "SiL", is completed. Although Warner Bros. is still working behind the scenes to try to continue the show, nothing is happening and nobody expects the series to go on. The ISN voice-over at the end of "Rising Star" says that Susan Ivanova has been promoted captain and been offered her choice of command of B5 or of a Warlock-class destroyer. The reporter goes on to say that Ivanova has not given EarthForce her decision. There is no episode called "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars".
A year earlier TNT had bought exclusive rights to rerun the pilot and the first four seasons of B5. They also commissioned two new TV movies to go along with the reruns, as well as agreeing to pay to re-edit The Gathering. TNT has not expressed any interest in continuing the series for year five; they just want the reruns and the TV movies - because they have experience in producing TV movies, but none in producing an original weekly drama series.
Immediately after production wraps on "SiL", the cast and crew begin work on Thirdspace. (They shoot this film first because it takes place on B5 and the station sets are still standing.) After Thirdspace they shoot In the Beginning (which is why Ivanova is in both - they were shot before Claudia left.)
When TNT sees the footage from the TV movies, and gets reports about how efficiently the production has been run from their people in Los Angeles, they suddenly become interested in carrying year five of the show. Negotiations begin with Warner Bros. The cast sign one-year contract extensions based on the SAG contract governing shows originally produced for basic cable (which is somewhat different than the rules governing first-run syndication.)
Claudia is the only cast-member who does not sign. She says that she is doing this for business reasons of her own, but intends to stay for S5 if TNT picks the show up.
TNT and Warner Bros. sign an agreement with barely enough time left to get the show back into production to meet the desired air date. At this point, owing to the usual odd PTEN broadcast schedule, the final four episodes have not yet aired, and won't for several more months. The show remains on the air rerunning S4 episodes. Warner Bros. sets a final date by which all returning cast and crew members have to sign new contracts so that pre-production and writing on the new season can start.
Approximately a week before the official start of pre-production Claudia has still not signed a new contract. Warner Bros. deadline comes and goes. She is now officially off the show, despite having been reminded by JMS and cast members at a convention they were all attending that she had to have her agent contact WB if she wanted to stay with the series.
JMS starts writing S5, creating Elizabeth Lochley as a replacement for Ivanova, and adjusting the Teep arc. He writes "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" to replace "SiL" as the last episode of S4, since "SiL" will now be held to air in the 522 slot. "Deconstruction" becomes the first script shot in the S5 production run, and is rushed through post-production to air along with the remaining S4 episodes as the season cliff-hanger.
The ISN narration at the end of "Rising Star" is rewritten and re-recorded to say that Susan Ivanova chose the Warlock assignment, rather than that she was still considering her options.
Regards,
Joe
No, they didn't know Claudia was leaving, and the episodes you mention were not completed when you think they were. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Here's the approximate order in which things happened:
S4, including the final episode, "SiL", is completed. Although Warner Bros. is still working behind the scenes to try to continue the show, nothing is happening and nobody expects the series to go on. The ISN voice-over at the end of "Rising Star" says that Susan Ivanova has been promoted captain and been offered her choice of command of B5 or of a Warlock-class destroyer. The reporter goes on to say that Ivanova has not given EarthForce her decision. There is no episode called "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars".
A year earlier TNT had bought exclusive rights to rerun the pilot and the first four seasons of B5. They also commissioned two new TV movies to go along with the reruns, as well as agreeing to pay to re-edit The Gathering. TNT has not expressed any interest in continuing the series for year five; they just want the reruns and the TV movies - because they have experience in producing TV movies, but none in producing an original weekly drama series.
Immediately after production wraps on "SiL", the cast and crew begin work on Thirdspace. (They shoot this film first because it takes place on B5 and the station sets are still standing.) After Thirdspace they shoot In the Beginning (which is why Ivanova is in both - they were shot before Claudia left.)
When TNT sees the footage from the TV movies, and gets reports about how efficiently the production has been run from their people in Los Angeles, they suddenly become interested in carrying year five of the show. Negotiations begin with Warner Bros. The cast sign one-year contract extensions based on the SAG contract governing shows originally produced for basic cable (which is somewhat different than the rules governing first-run syndication.)
Claudia is the only cast-member who does not sign. She says that she is doing this for business reasons of her own, but intends to stay for S5 if TNT picks the show up.
TNT and Warner Bros. sign an agreement with barely enough time left to get the show back into production to meet the desired air date. At this point, owing to the usual odd PTEN broadcast schedule, the final four episodes have not yet aired, and won't for several more months. The show remains on the air rerunning S4 episodes. Warner Bros. sets a final date by which all returning cast and crew members have to sign new contracts so that pre-production and writing on the new season can start.
Approximately a week before the official start of pre-production Claudia has still not signed a new contract. Warner Bros. deadline comes and goes. She is now officially off the show, despite having been reminded by JMS and cast members at a convention they were all attending that she had to have her agent contact WB if she wanted to stay with the series.
JMS starts writing S5, creating Elizabeth Lochley as a replacement for Ivanova, and adjusting the Teep arc. He writes "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" to replace "SiL" as the last episode of S4, since "SiL" will now be held to air in the 522 slot. "Deconstruction" becomes the first script shot in the S5 production run, and is rushed through post-production to air along with the remaining S4 episodes as the season cliff-hanger.
The ISN narration at the end of "Rising Star" is rewritten and re-recorded to say that Susan Ivanova chose the Warlock assignment, rather than that she was still considering her options.
Regards,
Joe
Re: Ivanova in Crusade (Spoilers for B5 S4/5)
Ah, thanks Joe, I didn't know all that. I thought DoFS was suppose to be aired just before SiL if there was to be no S5. I should have thought about the fact that that would mean 23 episodes were planned and shot for S4 but it must have missed it. Pretty good episode for not having been made until almost the last minute. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ah, thanks Joe, I didn't know all that. I thought DoFS was suppose to be aired just before SiL if there was to be no S5. I should have thought about the fact that that would mean 23 episodes were planned and shot for S4 but it must have missed it. Pretty good episode for not having been made until almost the last minute. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
B5_Obsessed
Regular
Re: Ivanova\'s Warlock (spoilers)
Just an FYI, since it was mentioned:
Captain Susan Ivanova did return to Babylon 5 in the JMS-written short story "Hidden Agendas". It is set during Season 5 and finds Susan returning to seek Sheridan's help with a problem:
Something is very wrong with her ship, the TITANS.
Just an FYI, since it was mentioned:
Captain Susan Ivanova did return to Babylon 5 in the JMS-written short story "Hidden Agendas". It is set during Season 5 and finds Susan returning to seek Sheridan's help with a problem:
Something is very wrong with her ship, the TITANS.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Re: Ivanova\'s Warlock (spoilers)
Where can "Hidden Agendas" be found? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Where can "Hidden Agendas" be found? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
B5_Obsessed
Regular
Re: Channe
Yup. In my first post, the person you later changed to Henderson was initially my unnamed (but implied) Ivanova. Then we decided to shift it away from B5 and Rangers.
Yup. In my first post, the person you later changed to Henderson was initially my unnamed (but implied) Ivanova. Then we decided to shift it away from B5 and Rangers.
