If you had to choose....

drakh · Sep 6, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GideonsMine:
WILL YOU STOP PICKING ON STAR TREK?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How is noting that he's worried about what is currently going on with the franchise "picking on" it? Frankly, as long as Berman and Braga are in charge I don't see how anyone could not be worried...

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

KoshN · Sep 6, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GideonsMine:

WILL YOU STOP PICKING ON STAR TREK? In the beginning it was a great show and it has lasted far longer at this point (with its spinoffs and movies) than B5 has. In time that may change, but right now us Trekkies still hold the worlds record.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's because it was there first.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

You don't have to like the original or spinoff shows or the movies, taste is personal. Just stop picking on my danged show.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I liked most of TOS, TNG, less of DS9, and almost none of VOY.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

I love B5 too (although I absolutely totally am nuts over Crusade).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm about 50/50.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

And I don't pick on Trekkies or their show as that is apples and oranges and serves no purpose. Plus I am an original Trekkie.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So am I. What was the first episode you saw in first run? Mine was Man Trap.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

giffy · Sep 9, 2001

I would say go with Rangers. AS It runs into the events of Crusade, it would allow for much of the story to be reaveled. Plus it could even allow for a guest apperance or two by Crusade cast member. After Rangers run, perhapse thier could be a stroy that would cover the last part of Crusade.

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Scott Gifford

Please pardon the spelling errors, grammer errors and various sarcastic overtures

taichidave · Sep 10, 2001

On the topic of Star Trek bashing:

I grew up watching reruns of Star Trek. Liked it a lot. David ("The Trouble with Tribbles") Gerrold has an interesting take on whether or not Star Trek TOS succeeded or failed in his book the World of Star Trek. It's an honest accounting of the strengths and flaws of this groundbreaking series from someone who was there.

The movies up until Generations were mostly good, sometimes great.

I thought ST:TNG was downright forgettable until about midway throught the second season. It kicked into high gear in seasons 3-5. The last two seasons were also good, but the series was starting to run out of steam. It left on a high note, as far as I was concerned.

DS9 was very good, though I could never fully commit myself to it until the fourth season or so. The last season was great, but I was outright disgusted by the finale.

I had incredibly high hopes for Voyager. I ended up regretting nearly every hour I spent watching it. They had a couple of interesting episodes here and there, but for the most part, I could never find Voyager's center. Put another way, what was the show really about? I don't think the writers every really got a handle on that, and it showed. Voyager was for the most part creatively bankrupt. An excellent cast and crew with no support from the writing staff.

After Voyager and ST:Insurrection, I simply do not believe the franchise is in capable hands. It's sad to see such a daring concept reduced to what it has become, but there it is.

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"We are all Kosh."

Wyvern · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The movies up until Generations were mostly good, sometimes great. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was a fan of Star Trek long before there was Babylon 5. Unfortunately, I have to disagree that they were mostly good. Of the six, three were indeed great. Of the remaining ones, only one deserves a place in my collection.

More on-topic, I look forwards to Rangers, and I will hopefully be quite happy with Rangers. But the simple fact is that, much as I want to just see the resolution to the Plague storyline, what I really want to see is the interaction in Crusade. I truly enjoyed the cast, and I would like the interplay between Gideon and Galen and Galen and Dureena (spelling probably butchered horrendously, for which I apologize).

I think that, at this point, the best plan would be to continue Crusade in book form. In my opinion, the last two mini-series (Fall of Centauri Prime and (so far) Passing of the Technomages) have shown that they can do an excellent job with the book format; plus, it nicely works around all the various annoyances with cast and crew. It would supplement Rangers without interfering with it, and, well, it would probably cost less.

However, I have noticed the tendency for it to not be a perfect world, so I'm going to just accept whatever I'm given.

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bakana · Sep 10, 2001

I suspect the voyager writers had LOTS of good story ideas.

All of them on the List Of Things You Can't Do In A Star Trek Show.

Paramont has a little list. A set of Rules.

They operate to make sure no Trek episode ever rises above Mediocrity.

It goes all the way back to TOS.
Like the episode "City On The Edge Of Forever" which is generally regarded as the best of the series.
It Started out Much better than it ended up.
The original reason for going through the time gate was to recapture a renegade Star Fleet Officer who had been arrested for selling Illegal Drugs and happened to escape while awaiting his Court Martial.

Gene R. insisted that No Star Fleet Officer would ever engage in Criminal Activity, so they replaced that plot line with the lame one about the Doctor going nutso.

Even with the way they watered down the story, it still came out as one of the Best episodes in the whole series.

The Original script, BTW, was written by Babylon 5 "Advisor" Harlan Ellison.
I believe he disliked the final butcher job so much he made them take his name off the credits and replace it with "cordwainer Bird".

BTW, someone is sure to bring up "Tribbles" as the "best" episode.
Tribbles isn't regarded as the Best episode, just the hands down Most Popular.
A subtle difference, but a difference just the same.

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

drakh · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:
The Original script, BTW, was written by Babylon 5 "Advisor" Harlan Ellison.
I believe he disliked the final butcher job so much he made them take his name off the credits and replace it with "cordwainer Bird".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He's written a book on how pissed he is because of the whole mess. In it he mentions he's only watched the episode produced once.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

taichidave · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:
The Original script, BTW, was written by Babylon 5 "Advisor" Harlan Ellison.
I believe he disliked the final butcher job so much he made them take his name off the credits and replace it with "cordwainer Bird".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Harlan's name does appear on the script and credits of CotEoF.

His alias "Cordwainer Bird" appeared on a little known television production called "The Starlost." Harlan created the show, mush like JMS did with B5. His screenplay for the pilot titled [I think?]"Pheonix from the Ashes" ended up earning a Nebula award. Long story short, the producers changed everything (think of how Crusade would have ended up if JMS gave TNT the series they wanted).

In his book, Stalking the Nightmare Harlan tells the whole ugly story. Go ther for teh details and anything I may have misremembered. Anyway, that's where he used the alias.

It's also why the situation with TNT and Crusade was all to easy for me to believe.

If memory serves, JMS tried to remove his name from Crusade and replace it with "Eibin Scrood" or some such.

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"We are all Kosh."

KoshN · Sep 10, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:
I suspect the voyager writers had LOTS of good story ideas.

All of them on the List Of Things You Can't Do In A Star Trek Show.

Paramont has a little list. A set of Rules.

They operate to make sure no Trek episode ever rises above Mediocrity.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hence JMS's comment about not being table to write with handcuffs on, or something to that effect?

You know, for a Vorlon, you're speaking a lot like Sinclair.

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KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Sep 11, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by taichidave:
On the topic of Star Trek bashing:

I had incredibly high hopes for Voyager. I ended up regretting nearly every hour I spent watching it. They had a couple of interesting episodes here and there, but for the most part, I could never find Voyager's center. Put another way, what was the show really about? I don't think the writers every really got a handle on that, and it showed. Voyager was for the most part creatively bankrupt. An excellent cast and crew with no support from the writing staff.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seemed to me that the writers were 100% winging it from week to week, and were out of ideas.

Viewing "most" of the Voyager episodes, it seemed as if the writers must have been all sitting around a table, trying to come up with ideas, and *everybody* was silent, no ideas, blank slate, all staring at each other with a glazed look over their eyes. Then somebody would come up with a *tiny* idea (too weak for even a mention in a B5 "B-story"), and they'd pad it to fill up an entire episode.

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KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

bakana · Sep 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think Harlan's name does appear on the script and credits of CotEoF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've got the book containing both the Original script and the script as Filmed.

The Filmed version is where I found "written by Cordwainer Bird".

The bit about Eiben Scrood is at: http://babylon5.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://member.aol.com/B5DS9/jmss.html

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ""I'm in scorched earth mode right now," he adds, before dropping his bombshell. "I had told Warners given that we were not going to get a proper publicity campaign, I was going to take my name off the show - the 'created by' credit - and put it out under my pseudonym. At first they said that was my call, until they found out what my pseudonym is.
Unfortunately, the [Screenwriter's] Guild, which originally approved the pseudonym, may revoke it, which means I can't put it on, which would upset me no end."

Joe runs the tape of The Path of Sorrows, and we watch the teaser (a strong scene for Peter Woodward as Galen and Carrie Dobro as Dureena) and the credits, which conclude with the words:
Created by Eiben Scrood

When we've finished laughing, Joe says regretfully, "The Guild won't back [my using the pseudonym]; after they registered it and everything, now they won't back it. Warners are taking the position that you can normally put a pseudonym on within seven days of notification of the writing credits, which usually happens at the end of the process, but here we send them out as soon as the scripts were written, which was back in August last year. The Guild are getting pressure that this would be in violation. It may have to go under my regular name. So if I won't get my satifaction in one way, I'll get it another way."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

Joseph DeMartino · Sep 12, 2001

Gene R. persuaded Ellison to use his real name in the "City" credits, saying it would hurt the series if it went out under his well-known pseudonym. So that's what went out over the air. In preparing the book I'm sure Harlan absolutely refused to put his name on the printed version of the "modified" script, but it is certainly there in the broadcast version.

And "City" comes in at the top of every "best Trek" episode poll I've ever seen. While "Tribbles" is (deservedly) also considered both a fan favorite and a good script, I've never heard of it topping "City" in survey. ("City" also made TV Guide's list of the 100 top TV episodes of all time, IIRC.)

Ellison's Starlost pilot script was called "Phoenix Without Ashes" It was adapted - by another writer - into a pretty good novel and may still be in print. The notoriously picky Ellison liked the result enough to write an introduction to the book. (And I'm sorry, but I'm drawing an absolute blank on the writer's name.)

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

taichidave · Sep 12, 2001

JoeD and bakana:

Thanks for the info and corrections. You gotta admit I was close on the title.

My copy of Stalking the Nightmare is currently burried under what seems like several tons of other books, so I was going from memory.

My somewhat erratic memory also tells me that "Trouble with Tribbles" also made also made TV Guide's 100 top TV episodes. And no, it didn't top "City."

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"We are all Kosh."

bakana · Sep 13, 2001

Tribbles usually get Favorite Episode rather than Best.

An "I love that episode in spite of its flaws" sort of reaction.

BTW, how many people know that Tribbles were NOT original to Trek??

They came from a book by Robert Heinlein titled "The Rolling Stones" (Published in the Late 1940s, I think) where they had the name "Martian Flat Cats".
Same critters, though. Right down to the "Born Pregnant" part.

David Gerrold didn't do it on purpose. In fact, there are reports that he telephoned Heinlein only a day or two before the episode went on the air because he had just Realized where his subconscious had dredged up the critters.
Heinlein reportedly just asked for his assurances that it was a Good episode and said not to worry.

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

GideonsMine · Sep 20, 2001

Ever wonder why you guys have to bash Star Trek and its kiddies so often?

Time for a vacation again.

I am just thankful that Paramount doesn't run the Sci Fi channel.

I am still looking forward to the new Enterprise regardless of you psuedo sophisticate sci fi'ers.

I was only 8 when Star Trek TOS came on TV and I was mesmerized, it was a hell shot better than Lost in Space. Duh.

But even Lost in Space has its place in all of our hearts.

Do you ever think you hate ST so much because JmS does? I think he spends too much time bitching about it, but if it helps him create so be it.

I never question creative juices to the extent that others do. I just enjoy them.

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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

drakh · Sep 20, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:
He sometimes commiserates with the writers on the Current incarnations because they are so often prevented from writing Better stories. These people (the writers) are his Friends.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here it is in his own words: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Finally, re: Jeri Taylor...here I have to disagree. Though we don't talk as often as we should, or as I'd like, in large measure I think because of the perceived awkwardness between ST and B5 right now, I consider her not only a friend, but one of the best writer/producers in town. This isn't widely known, but she was my exec producer, with David Moessinger, on JAKE AND THE FATMAN. We worked together very closely, and I found her to be an immensely talented woman, very dedicated to quality storytelling, ethical and strong willed and generous to a fault. When she and David resigned from Jake on principle, over some stuff that was happening quite unfairly to them, I quit with them, even though it was my very first real network major gig, and my
agent thought I was nuts. I don't do this for everybody. I did it for Jeri and David because they are good and decent people, because I cared about them, and because they were *right*...and they're two of the best writers I know.

If there's a problem with Voyager -- and I'm not saying there is, because I haven't seen enough of it to form a valid opinion -- it's due to the situation that has always pertained to ST: they make the writers there write with mittens on, and won't let them cut loose with the kinds of stories they COULD do, for fear of doing something controversial that might hurt "The Franchise." I've said it elsewhere and will repeat it again: I know the folks they've got over there, and if Paramount ever backed off and let them do what they're *capable* of doing, they'd blow the doors off of SF television.

So long story made short...no, I don't think B&P at DS9 are sitting there cribbing B5 plotlines from the original material provided to Paramount. I think they would refuse. They are ethical individuals. Are they playing a little at co-opting us, which is kind of more accepted in town? I don't know. I think you could make a compelling argument on either side. But I don't know the truth any more than you do, and if they say not, then I'm prepared to believe them. And as for Jeri, anybody here goes after her, has to go through me first.

jms<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And for those who don't know, Jeri Taylor was executive produer on the last half of TNG. She also went on to do Voyager, but left after a few seasons because she felt burnt out (IIRC).

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

drakh · Sep 20, 2001

Also, what constitutes bashing? If pointing out that something isn't 100% perfect is bashing it, then jms is guilty of B5 bashing... He's on record as wishing Infection and Grey 17 is Missing could be erased from history.

(And I'd just like to point out that I'm 21, I consider the original to be the best Trek by far. Even if it isn't perfect.

)

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

bakana · Sep 21, 2001

Gideonsmine, no one was Bashing Trek.

I posted a bit of Trek Trivia. That's not a bash.
Nor is saying Tribbles wasn't perfect.
It wasn't.
It's still most people's favorite episode.
Including MINE.

And JMS does NOT hate Trek. He Loved TOS just like the rest of us.

He sometimes commiserates with the writers on the Current incarnations because they are so often prevented from writing Better stories. These people (the writers) are his Friends.

JMS has stated that he won't work for Paramont because of the limitations they force the writers to work under.
In some ways, he admires them for what they manage to accomplish in Spite of the suits running Paramont.

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

**DONOTDELETE** · Sep 22, 2001

What a terrible thing to ask!

I really want 'Crusade' to continue.

I was a bit uncertain a couple of times throughout the brief run it had here in Australia. But it had fantastic potential. Moments of pure brilliance. I didn't go for the music, or the Apocalypse Box, but I liked the characters - a lot.

But if I really had to choose, it would have to be 'Rangers'.

I really like the idea, the concept really speaks to me, and it sucks me in.

'Crusade' we knew the ending - we just didn't know how, which is what I loved. Knowing the ending, yet trying to anticipate and get to the how.

'Rangers', well, what a fantastic idea.

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“What a piece of work is man!
“How noble in reason. How infinite in faculty! In form, in moving, how express and admirable! In action how like an angel! In apprehension how like a god!”
William Shakespeare's 'Hamlet'

bakana · Sep 22, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'Crusade' we knew the ending - we just didn't know how, which is what I loved. Knowing the ending, yet trying to anticipate and get to the how.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are referring to the cure for the Plague, that was only a Red Herring. JMS said they'd find an Apparent Cure in the second season.

Then, the show would get started on the REAL story.
The story that explained why the "cure" they had found wasn't such a good thing after all.
Why it wasn't a Real Cure.

And just who has been playing Political games with Who.

IOW, they'd be looking for the answers to those annoying questions:

Who do you Serve?
And
Who do you Trust?

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

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