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I'm happy, sort of

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

I agree with Happy Phantom, and Bakana. I believe that a moral person does what is right, because it is right, and in the long run is best for everyone, and not because of the promise of a heavenly reward, which could be considered a bribe. The thing is that there are a lot of emotionally immature or morally challenged people people in this world, and religion seeks to instill good behavior in them with the promise of rewards later, because that is easier than instilling altruism in the selfish and inconsiderate.

Although I am an atheist, I believe that everyone and everything has an essence, spirit, or nature, which I hesitate to call a soul because of the christian inferences. I cannot prove this scientifically, but I believe I see evidence of it in nature. This is at it's heart the belief "that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy", or the belief that we don't know or understand everything yet. I do believe that everything, even the spiritual, is ultimately explainable by science, although we may need to attain the evolutionary status of Vorlons to do it!

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

The last post is the question at the heart of my thesis - can there be morality without faith in some sort of God, some sort of higher law, a reference point?

I'm not going to get into it because I just wrote seventy pages on it.

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In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the grace of God.
-Aeschylus
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Question, JadeJaguar - where do you get your moral reference points from? How do you know what is wrong and what is right, what is good, and what is evil? How do you make decisions on that?

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In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the grace of God.
-Aeschylus
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

My point of view (as an atheist, yes):

Hurting others is wrong. Doing something just because I want to - without thinking of the consequences to other people, or to nature at large - is wrong.

Does there have to be a god - do I have to believe in a higher being - in order for me to live my life as best as I can while trying not to harm anyone else?

Do I have to believe in a supreme being in order to know that I should not steal? That I should not kill? Not lie for my own benefit? Not take another woman's husband?

I don't think so. To me, morality and belief in a higher being can be quite separate.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Well, I have read some philosophy, and different philosophies have different takes, and all seem to have faults too. We might say that what produces the greatest good for the greatest number of people is what's right. But would it be right to round up the richest 10% of the people in the world, kill them, and distribute their wealth to the others? I don't think so. The golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is very good, unless you are a masochist, or suicidal. I do believe that principles must be universalizable, that is apply to everyone equally to be just. I hate to be so vague, but like the supreme court said about porn, I feel about right and wrong, I know it when I see it... usually. I don't think I am a self righteous person, or dogmatic, so I can be persuaded that I am wrong if appropriate evidence is put to me. In practice, I think a person gets their moral code, or lack of one from what they are taught, including by example, life experience, and sadly, tv, which unlike JMS usually portrays violence as the solution to our problems, and doesn't show the consequences of the violence of 'the good guys'. I think most religions have good moral codes, although these are sometimes corrupted. If I believed litterally in everything in the Bible, I wouldn't eat shrimp, or barbequed ribs, or accept interest on bank deposits, and we'd probably still be burning witches. The declaration of independence has some fine principles in it, We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal... But defining good and bad, right and wrong, is difficult. I think we must study many moral philosophies, and the element of time is important, in that we must examine the outcome produced over time by a given philosophy. What it comes down to though, is what is good is what produces a good outcome for the most people in the long run, and what is bad is what produces a bad outcome for most people over the long run. And yes, I realize that that is a very reflexive answer. If I may borrow a saying from another show, good is to live long and prosper, but add not at the expense of or to the detriment of others.

------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

I don't know if you can call it Moral or not, but the one thing that seems to occur most often in the majority of human cultures is the instinct to sacrifice for the happiness of another.

Sometimes that other is a child, a lover, a friend, a parent. In its highest form, a Stranger.

That sacrifice may take simple forms, such as offering gifts, allowing the other to have the more comfortable chair, or not eating the last donut.

At the other extreme, it may involve giving up a Life to save another.

The Third Principle of Sentient life.
cool.gif
laugh.gif



In the long run, perhaps the Hypocratic Oath summed Morality up as well as anything can:

"First, Do No Harm!"



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

The idea that many theists hold that morality comes from religion is one of the huge points of propaganda that dogmas preach. Religion pushers hijacked morality and claim to own it, just like Republicans hijacked Jesus.

There was morality before Christ, before Yaweh, and before monotheism.

Isn't it possible that religion came from morality, not vice-versa?

It is more probable, and more fitting with human history, that the two influenced each other. That's the way patterns of behavior work: they intertwine and effect each other.

Early civilization developed because of some sort of moral code, even if it was implied. The fact that agriculture developed and cities were formed means that people had to practice morality, otherwise non-nomadic societies would not have stabilized, what with all the killing and all.

The idea that we need to be Good so that we don't get punished in the afterlife is, I'm sorry, a bit immature, and really underestimating humanity. Are we children, or Pavlovian dogs, that need a ghost story to direct our actions, or are we Men and Women, with free will and the ability to make our own decisions?

The funny thing is, most religions throughout history placed the emphasis on human decisions on this life, not the reward and punishment in the here-after. Pagan gods were very human and not to be taken as role models. They were paid homage because of their power, but it was up to the people to decided their own fate. Judaism has the concept of reward and punishment in the afterlife, but very different than Christianity, and it also places a much stronger emphasis in this life. Chrisitianity stressed the afterlife because it appealed to the poor and lower dregs of society, who were doomed to lead miserable lives. The promise of a Paradise after death was appealing- the good get rewarded, and the wicked will get their just desserts.

Times have changed. We need not cower in the face of a vengeful deity. Live for life, not for death.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Kosher dietary laws as put forth in the Bible are not necessary unless you're Jewish.

You have some good points, JadeJaguar, but note how easily your words "what is good is what produces a good outcome for the most people in the long run." It's good that you realize it's a reflexive answer, because that sort of philosophy, while all right, can be perverted quite easily without a definite settlement. It can be perverted very easily into explaining away evil acts by saying they're "good." Yes, they might be good in the end, but you'd be getting into a philosophy that says "the ends justify the means..."

There's really only one taboo common to all cultures of note: incest. Anything else is free reign.

Yes, there was morality before Christ, before monotheism, and before Adonai, but... before Christ, Allah, and Adonai there were other gods, back, and back, and back, and back into the mists of time. Our rock-throwing ancestors worshipped gods and had moral codes because of it. Religion and morality has always been inextricably tied. It is only within the last two thousand years that morality has been tied with the monotheistic faiths only.

If you're a Catholic, for example, you believe that you have free will. God made you so you can choose between good and evil. As a Catholic, I always have in the back of my mind the fact that I have an afterlife coming up and that I really should think about that, but for most of us it is hardly a bribe, as was mentioned beforehand. We, like you, exist in the world. The world is, basically, what we know. Like you, what we do affects our world. We judge morality on that, as well.

But, where an atheist could, philosophically speaking, take advantage and commit a truly evil act if he knew no one would ever find out about it and there would be no consequences, a Christian could not.

In that way, the Afterlife is more of a help, not a hindrance or a silly notion.

GKarsEye, the God we worship today is not the God of thunder, lightning, strike-thee-dead stories, and the medieval poor man's God. I honor and worship that God, yes, but the God I know personally is the Father, the one who stands and watches the world, weeping for us and celebrating with is - He who allows me to make my own moral decisions because I have free will.

One of the stories we grew up with was the fact that when you die, you are the one that decides whether you go to Heaven or Hell. There's no Saint Peter, no Heavenly Judge. You are shown your life and you make that decision yourself based on your life - because at that time, you're dead, no longer bound by the flesh, and you cannot lie...

You know, on the Internet I find I am a minority...

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In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the grace of God.
-Aeschylus

[This message has been edited by channe (edited November 06, 2001).]
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>If you're a Catholic, for example, you believe that you have free will. God made you so you can choose between good and evil. As a Catholic, I always have in the back of my mind the fact that I have an afterlife coming up and that I really should think about that, but for most of us it is hardly a bribe, as was mentioned beforehand. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is debatable whether this is free will. If someone holds a gun to your head and orders you to do good, you can still choose what to do. Again, free will, but not really.

Limiting our choices to two, "good" and "evil," is hardly a choice. Life is much more complex, with consequences and responsibilities for all actions, which have practical repercussions beyond the simple ideas of good and evil.

What is better, choosing Right because of a command from God, or because the person came to the decision himself? It is precisely the lack of a concrete, direct, predictable eventuality coming from an action that makes the non-believer truly have free will: we do what we do because we have decided what is right.

While the concept of the afterlife may prevent some people from doing wrong, it can also cause great harm. We learned that the hard way on September 11.

The application of religion as a practical approach to directing people towards "good" ulitmately fails, as there are plenty of people who profess faith and do not act positively. In the end, we can argue until we're blue in the face about whether religion has done more harm than good. And in the end, it doesn't matter.

Even if, hypothetically, religion was a successful mechanism for control, it doesn't make it right.

Being born into a dogmatic household, trained to worship a certain way, educated through the lens of dogman, and bred to practice a religion can ultimately strip one of his free will. The person loses real choice- he/she never even had a chance. Sometimes I feel that raising a kid with a religion is a form of child abuse.

Channe, you may be a "minority" on the internet because, sadly, atheists are cowards. In person, they do not like to "admit" their atheism. If the subject comes up, they decline to talk about it or use that horrible word "agnostic." They fear being ostricised or condemned. "How can you not believe in God?!" People of religion are proud to announce their faith; atheists are ashamed of their lack of it. So, many atheists like to hide behind the veil of anonimity that the internet provides, and vent their frustrations that way. It's pathetic. I believe you said yourself that people should avoid talking about it if they don't know other people well because it's sensitive. Well, too bad, I say. If someone is that sensitive about it, he/she doesn't have a very strong faith anyway.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Modern, mainstream Christianity does not teach that your actions in this life determine your status in the afterlife. Salvation as a free gift is a major tenet in most Christian sects. There is no way to earn your way into heaven. Only faith is necessary to achieve salvation. Therefore, I believe that the premise that religious individuals are only moral out of fear of retribution is false.

I could argue that individuals are "moral" out of a sense of social obligation. It might not be stretching credulity too far to say that humans are innately "good" and will act according to their true nature. However, regardless of a person's personal belief, it is the height of ignorance, in my opinion, to label people as uneducated or simple because they hold a particular set of beliefs.


Frizzell

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"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

"Good in theory...
Lousy in practice...
It implies that I am expendable. I am many things. I am bright, personable, charismatic and not a bad dancer but expendable? No."
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Frizell, theology and application are often two seperate issues. Some sects of Christianity teach one thing, and people believe in another. Many people believe that if they don't do the right thing, they will burn in hell. They may be "wrong" according to your view of the faith, but they still believe it.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

That is why I attempted to qualify my statement by the use of the word **most**.

It was not my intention to imply that anyone's beliefs are wrong, whether they are christians, atheists or **insert belief system here**.

I wished to comment on my amazement at people's inclination to either label other's beliefs as simplistic, moronic or wrong.


Frizzell

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"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

"Good in theory...
Lousy in practice...
It implies that I am expendable. I am many things. I am bright, personable, charismatic and not a bad dancer but expendable? No."

[This message has been edited by Frizzell (edited November 06, 2001).]
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Let me just say right now that the thesis that I'm writing at the moment has the distinct honor of dealing with the grey areas in morality as well as free-will. I've just written seventy pages about this. Trust me, all we'll do on this thread is come to an uneasy stalemate - nothing more.

You said, GKarsEye, that people of religion are proud to announce their faith. Sadly, it is usually the people of religion who are highly educated and see the world through very scientific, rational eyes that are afraid to announce their faith.

Why?

Because in today's world, I'm sorry to say, faith and rationality have been entirely separated when in reality they should be intertwined. In America today if you're religious you're usually presented by the mass media as being fanatically so, and if you're a doctor or a scientist or some sort of profession where you deal with the scientific method and with hard, concrete natural facts, you're presented with the fact that because you know about the cotelydon and the Human Genome that there, for you, cannot be a God.

That is wrong, wrong, wrong.

People born into a dogmatic household, raised with church every Sunday, and who had an education in rationality, are just as afraid as atheists at being "labeled."

Ok, now I'm rambling - I had a runin this morning dealing with this in class - so it's in my brain...

Gonna shut up now.
smile.gif


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In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the grace of God.
-Aeschylus
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

This is an interesting conversation. At first I was thinking that it would be impossible to say which predates, morality or religion. But the it occured to me that chimps do have a sense of right and wrong, not as developed as ours, of course. But they, as tribal animals must have a sort of morality to coexist, as surely did tribal humans. But still, morality is a major component of most, if not all, religions.
G's Eye, we all start as children, and some of us don't advance that much, so the stick and the carrot is not that unreasonable a method to teach morality along with reason, but eventually, we must be on our own. And I'm not so sure that most atheists are cowards, but most of us don't prosthelytize, or care to be in constant arguments defending ourselves.
Channe, I think you're right, in that society wants us to be just so religous, but no more, and this is awkward in the sciences. And any philosophy can be perverted. But I did add to do the most good the caveat not at the expense or to the detriment of others. And certainty of punishment is an attraction of religion, but only an immoral atheist would do evil just because he didn't fear punishment.

------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

I agree with what you said Channe. Many Chrisitians are afraid to say that they are for fear of persecution by a society that is trying to get rid of God and his influences. Many of these people would rather be complacent than to take a stand for what they believe in, especially when what they believe in is not welcome. You see so much anti-religion sentiment in America today, much of that being pushed by the ACLU. They try to kick God out of government, the schools, public places, and even cry foul at nativity scenes at Christmas time. It's unfortunate that this goes on today. I believe that we shouldn't be so quick to run from a God whom our founding fathers believed in and kept in mind when they founded our country. I think we could all benefit from the tenets that America was founded on if we just give them a chance instead of rejecting them or twisting them to say what we want them to say.

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The Whitestar Salad Bar, the galaxy's best place for parties.

[This message has been edited by RW7427 (edited November 07, 2001).]
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Oh, you poor opressed Christians. It must be awful to live in a country where you are part of an ostrocized 80% minority.
crazy.gif


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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

I stayed out of this thread until now, but I feel compelled to say something at this point. To say that morality is a result of religion seems off the mark to me. Are you saying that atheists have no morals? Or that they only have morals because, thank goodness, they were exposed to some religion early enough in life?

I think our parents teach us our morals. Later in life, we might disagree with some of these rules, even lash out against them. But learning how to survive as a child in this world teaches us restraint. As maturity catches up with habit, we begin to define our personal sense of “morality”. And we find that the situation is not as cut-and-dry as we might have thought. So our sense of morality deepens.

None of this is dependent on religion, however.

I live in the U.S.A. and this country, for one, was founded in great part by people who were fleeing religious persecution. Should we set up our schools and government to make the same mistakes? Separation of church and state is a fundamental requirement in our government.

When my school decided to put up Christmas decorations, and to recite a blatantly Christian prayer at our graduation ceremony, we were lucky we did not get sued. You see, we have more than several Jewish instructors. We also have Atheists, Buddhists, Wiccans, and all sorts of varied and interesting religions represented on our college’s campus. In fact, we can have some of the most interesting religious discussions, with this magnificent variety. What we cannot do is to favor one group over the others, and make a school project a religious project. They have changed their decoration ceremony to be a “winter holiday” that is not much more diverse, and quite frankly much less offensive. They also went back to a giving non-denominational prayer at graduation.

Look at the countries that DO LET religion dictate school and government. We are over there fighting right now. And women, by the way, seem to be the ones who suffer most in these religiously dictated regimes.

So, yes, keep organized religion out of our public schools. And be aware that morality can exist without organized religion. I believe it can also exist in religion. It’s your choice. But as George Carlin said “Religion is like a lift in your shoe. If it makes you walk straight, fine. But please don’t do down to the beach and start nailing lifts to the native’s feet”. Yes, I believe separation of church and state is essential, absolutely essential.


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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RW7427:
I think we could all benefit from the tenets that America was founded on if we just give them a chance instead of rejecting them or twisting them to say what we want them to say.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, one of the most important tenets our wise founding fathers gave us was: there must be a clear separation between church and state. They were wise enough to know that many of the settlers were fleeing countries where their form of Christianity was unpopular and persecuted. I’m personally grateful that they were also wise enough to respect the rights of ALL people, and not just look around and say “well, we are all Christian, as long as we keep things nice and Christian, we’ll be ok”.

And it would have been so easy to do. But they knew better.


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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

All that "prayer in school" crap is just an obvious attempt to push religion on other people. It's missionary politics. So is including blatantly religious sentiments on our currency, government documents, etc. This practice began after the Civil War and was beefed up after World War II and the start of the Cold War. This sort of thing is perpetuated by the likes of the Christian Coalition, Robertson, Falwell, Buchanon, and other extremists. Most Christians don't support them, but they support their plans, which is just as bad. See, they don't even realise where these ideas came from and what the motivation for them are.

Even if, hypothetically, the founding fathers wanted this to be a "Christian" or God-loving country (which they most certainly did not), it wouldn't matter. They were around a long time ago.

I also find it sad that people are defining their world view through their interpretation of the media and the internet. It's more important to look at our government leaders, educational institutions, family, friends, and communities, all of which are high on God, especially if he's in the attractive form of Jesus, accompanied by a handy little Book.

It's pointless to argue about who is more "opressed." Eveyone can make themselves out to be a victim, and that's a problem in the US: we have developed a victim culture. Well, life doesn't reward victims. In the end, you have to answer for your actions and take life like a Man (or Woman), not bitch about how unfair everything is.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Re: I\'m happy, sort of

I agree with hypatia. Blatant religion in public schools is only asking for trouble. There's a very good reason that there is something called the separation of church and state. I wouldn't want people being forcefed with my faith at all.

If you go to a Catholic or Protestant Bible school, however, you're just asking for it.

GKarsEye, you'd be surprised at the amount of prejudice I get when I say I'm a Catholic. Very surprised.

The Northeast of our great country is very hostile to Christians.

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In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the grace of God.
-Aeschylus
 
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