I'm happy, sort of

[Frizzell]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

I would like to thank Hypatia for that eloquent response. It mirrors my own thoughts on the subject. I do not think that I would have been as succinct.

Frizzell


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"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

"Good in theory...
Lousy in practice...
It implies that I am expendable. I am many things. I am bright, personable, charismatic and not a bad dancer but expendable? No."

 

[hypatia]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Thanks, Channe. I always respect the need to divide church and state, I am sometimes not sure if other people do or not.

In my area of the country, Catholicism is almost assumed. Now I'm a pretty strange ex-Catholic. I DON'T automatically hate the church. In my family, it WAS part of our moral upbringing. (Not that I think it was a necessary element, mind you, it was just part of my individual experience.) But I do know that there is a tendency to ostracize those who are different. And when you are part of a group that makes up at least 80% of a community, it is hard to see just how oppressive some public actions can be.

That is why I always respect anyone who does belong to an organized religion if they also see the need to keep our public institutions free from their direct influence. It isn't that I think Catholicism is evil (I know some people do, but I DON'T). It is that I think any religion allowed to dominate a government is going to go wrong, period.

"All power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I also like that the legislative branch is separate from the judicial branch of government. Neither is evil (although I might be convinced otherwise during some election periods!!!) but keeping them separate is essential.

Channe, it's good to know it is still possible to disagree and still have a thought-provoking conversation! I salute you! And best of luck with your defense.

If it helps any, this is what I did before I defended my master's thesis is math:

I was getting nervous. Fortunately for me, it was an afternoon time that I was appointed. I walked around the campus, near my building, and eventually sat under a tree. When I was ready to leave, I put my dominant hand (I'm a rightie) on the tree, and said: "what comes, comes. I have done all that I can to prepare."

It worked for me! It calmed me down. I succeeded in my defense, and receive my degree without any need for rewrites or extra classes. And let's face it: IT WAS TRUE! I HAD done ALL that I could. It was just a matter of keeping my fear in check, and using my brain. And boy, howdee, does the committee try to trip you up. Know that you won't be perfect, be ready to do your best, and let the rest take care of itself.

He he he, I'm back to talking about faith again.

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

[This message has been edited by hypatia (edited November 07, 2001).]

 

[Kribu]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Thank you, Hypatia, for voicing two of the things I strongly believe in myself.

First, the connection (or the lack of it) between being a religious person (or having a religious upbringing) and morality.

I think I was 16-17 when I first personally met someone who believed in god. Yes, I had a completely atheist upbringing. My grandmother was baptised and confirmed as this was the way things were in her childhood but as far as I know, she was never religious.

Yet, I do think I was taught enough about morals - both at home and in school - but in recent years, I have been told by some believers (not all of them, of course!) that as an atheist, I am a "bad" person by default.

Second, I am absolutely sure that State and the Church must be kept separate. Which is how it is - at least nominally - here as well.

Yet almost every State occasion, or a military parade, starts with a Lutheran service. Yet, the people of the - Lutheran - church are demanding more and more vocally that religion should be taught at school.

Now, I do think that young people should be taught about religion at school - but definitely not in primary school, and most certainly not just about the preferred religion of the teacher.

An overview of the history of different religions, in high school, would be great - teaching one religion to young children is not. Instead of teaching "Christian values", kids should be taught ethics and morality.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge

 

[hypatia]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Isn't it a crying shame that a course like "World Religions" just isn't taught anywhere except in college? It is a shame and a disservice, IMO. You can’t escape how religion has shaped culture. But I think that you CAN analyze it, study it, and learn from it.

Personally, I’m in the grey zone of religion. If I felt a need to practice, I would study Buddhism, I think. If I’m not mistaken, they don’t have a personalized deity, they believe all suffering comes from a sense of possessiveness. I don’t know much about it, but what I hear always appeals to me.


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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>GKarsEye, you'd be surprised at the amount of prejudice I get when I say I'm a Catholic. Very surprised.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I was talking about Christians, not Catholics specifically.

However, as a northeastern American myself, I haven't seen much bias againt Catholics. Maybe some nutsos, sure, but it's more resentment against the Church, and I can't say I blame them.

I'm from Brooklyn, where there are lots of Catholics, partly due to the large Italian population. In Boston, where I live now, there are lots of Irish Catholics.

Personally, I find it amusing when theists fight amongst themselves about this crap. It makes me proud to be a heathen.

I can write a good deal about how atheists are viewed, and about the kind of crap people assume about me because of my lack of faith. Sure, it's all true, but it shouldn't be assumed.

If there's one thing that most of the world's Jews, Christians, Muslims, and all other groups of people who bitterly hate each other all agree on, it's that there is something severely wrong with an atheist.

So, depending on how you look at it, everyone is oppressed. It's pointless to have a "pity" contest, like old people who try to out-do each other about how many miles they had to walk to school in the snow without shoes and such. Let's just agree that life is just awful for everyone.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[Frizzell]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

At my high school, we did have a course on World Religions. However, we called it Comparative Religions. I was fortunate enough to take that course and the college course. They were both very enlightening.

Frizzell


------------------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

"Good in theory...
Lousy in practice...
It implies that I am expendable. I am many things. I am bright, personable, charismatic and not a bad dancer but expendable? No."

 

[RW7427]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

I do agree that morality can be taught without having to teach religion at the same time. I think that everyone, having religion of one kind or another, or those that do not can understand morality and teach it to their kids. But As a Christian, I believe that morals can benefit from religious influence.

I also agree with the "church and state" thing. I was not saying that I think religion should be forced on kids in school, but what I am saying is that government shouldn't infringe on the rights of those that wish to practice it. I think relgion and government can work well together if both respect the other. I believe religious leaders can be involved in government and that government leaders can be involved in their local church. But when one infringes on the other or forces the other to change or to go away, than I believe that is wrong.

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The Whitestar Salad Bar, the galaxy's best place for parties.

 

[bakana]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Brother Christian
Leslie Fish


I'd have no complaint if Brother Christian would just stay
In his own church, or his own house, to worship his own way;
But out into the marketplace he feels obliged to go
Despising everything in sight and telling people so.

(Chorus)
And he's just another bully, when he pushes folks around;
He's a bigger, badder bully--I don't want him in my town!
I don't care what his reasons are for stomping you and me;
But by his works I know him--and this is tyranny.

(2)
Now I'd not grumble much if Brother Christian just complained
And whined and nagged in public, though my patience would be strained;
But up into the City Hall he feels obliged to stray,
Demanding bans on everything that doesn't go his way.
(Chorus)

(3)
I'd not raise my hand if Brother Christian would just bitch
For laws to censor everything that makes a body itch;
But on the Congress floor he feels obliged to take a stand:
To make his tastes and morals the one law of the land.
(Chorus)

(4)
I'm tired of Brother Christian's tricks, and all his bigotry.
I'm tired of tight-ass morals that he tries to put on me;
I'm tired of politician fools who follow where he runs;
He wants to make a Christian world. Forget it--get the guns!
(Chorus)

(c)1988 by Leslie Fish and Random Factors


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[hypatia]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Oh, my. This subject does get the blood up, so to speak, doesn't it? Hmmm.

Well, I'll just say: Frizzell, I am very glad to hear that "Comparative Religion" IS taught in public schools. And you got the name right, that is what it is most commonly called, I think.

If you can approach it academically, and know that no one is out to convince you of anything, you are just here to learn, it can be magnificent. You really need a good instructor for that course, one who can put personal opinions aside.

------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

The funny thing is, the "major" monotheistic religions include missionising as part of practicing the faith. That is, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all urge their followers to bring others into their dogma.

The thing is, people just interpret what that means in different ways. On one end of the spectrum, it just means that a follower should be open to questions of outsiders and willing and eager to help people into the faith if the other person expresses interest. On the other end, you have those who force conversions. And, of course, there are all the nice little grey areas in between.

The sad fact is that as long as dogmatic religions exist, so will people who try to do everything in their power to convert others.

Non-religous people have become wary of this. Sure, sometimes we go too far, but what can one expect? There are people trying to push their faith everywhere, so it makes a lot of people concerned when Creationists want the public school system to acknowledge Bible Creationism as a valid scientific theory, the Ten Commandments are posted in public buildings, and our president throws God into his speech (and therefore, his policies) as if he was a rap artist at the Grammy Awards. A lot of cute little religious things that seem harmless are not.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[bakana]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

FWIW, last I heard, Judaism Discourages converts.

To the extent that, for certain liturgical questions, a person with a Jewish Father and non-Jewish Mother is Not considered a Jew.
The distinction passes through the Maternal line.


Growing up, I knew a man who was raised in Tahiti when the worst Insult you could offer anyone was to call them a Missionary.
It had to do with the abuses of the French Missionaries who forced the Tahitians into church at Gunpoint.
Become a "Baptized Christian" or get shot.

Lots of very sincere conversions, don't you think?? <Fe>



------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Hypatia, you might want to read The Way of Zen, or The It Book by Alan Watts, both very digestable intros into Zen Buddhism.
In 9th grade history, we spent one or two hours on world religions, not nearly enough. I think a semester course should be required in JHS. Even though I am an atheist, I think everyone should be exposed to various religions to foster cultural understanding, among other things.
My favorite statement about religion was made by the comedy group Fire Sign Theater:"Oh, Blinding light, oh, light that blinds, I cannot see, look out for me...

------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

 

[hypatia]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Thanks, Jade Jaguar. I have gotten more great book and movie suggestions from this site. I'll check one of them out (or maybe both) next time I'm in a bookstore.

Thanks!

------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

bakana,
You're right, sort of. According to Judaism, being a Jew or not has to do with the "type" of soul a person has. Either you have a Jewish soul or you don't. Neither is better than the other, but the people with different souls have different responsibilities. A Jew must follow the commandments of the Torah. This is why they are the "Chosen" people: they are Chosen to follow the word of God. Non-Jews have a responsibility to follow the seven Noahite commandments, which are basically ethical rules and bans idolatry (Jewish scholars debate whether Christianity is idolatry, but that's another story). One can identify a Jewish soul by the person's mother.

Going against this practice was one of the key ways in which Christianity turned from a small cult into a major religion: Paul preached that one is a Christian if he accepts Jesus as his Lord and saviour. Where Christianity used to be a form of Judaism, so that people had to be Jewish then accept Jesus as the Messiah, now people could just join up with the cult, by-passing Judaism altogether. This brought in lots of pagans into the cult, and Christianity was born.

So, technically, it can be said that Jews don't missionise. But, in fact, they do. Their target is other Jews. They want to get other Jews to practice. This is considered an admirable goal, thus the existence of Chabad-Lubavitch, NCSY, USY, and other Jewish "outreach" groups. It is missionising, as they want to alter your thinking and get you to live like they do. The only difference is that their target group is smaller. Don't kid yourself: Jewish "outreach" groups are just as bad, if not worse, than other brainwashing religion-pusher groups.

A non-Jew can convert, but it has to be completely out of his/her own desire and sincere.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[Shaal Mayan]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Yeah I cry to it's sad epsiode but also one of my favorites

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[bakana]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Those who do believe in God must also accept that His gift of Free Will is at once the Greatest and Most Terrible gift a creator could give.

Which is a paradox worthy of an omnipotent being.

We are given absolute freedom.
Freedom to do to and with one another anything we like.
It is a wonderful gift because the alternative is eternal Slavery to the Creator.
It is a most terrible gift because it allows all the evil that men do to one another to flourish unhindered by anything except our own pitiful attempts to learn to stop hating one another.



------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I would say that believing in the universe itself as some kind of intelligent, sentient, entity is the same has believing in a single omnipotent god.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see a difference here. The universe includes you, your decisions, your beliefs, your doubts, your mistakes. The concept of a single and omnipotent God does not include you. I wrote down some more thoughts about it in a later part of my post.

--------

I appreciate the good that organized religion can bring and has brought. It can make people think about right and wrong, help them find a better way to live. But every coin has two sides. Religion is a potent tool for people hungry for power, money or fame. When used badly, it is a powerful means of control.

To enjoy the good sides of organized religion without taking risks with the ways in which it can be misused, a society needs to make sure that no view of the world is considered above others, more true, more native, more justified. Yet we are not very good at ensuring this. I find it distressing and try to do what I can to keep the balance.

When having a quick glance at world history, I see countless sad examples of how organized religion has been used for ill purpose. Yet I know that it has helped countless people find peace of mind, purpose and inspiration to change for the better. The same religions have been used to justify violence and oppression.

It makes me sad. Why must it be that a phenomenon which can help so many people must also be a potent weapon? I would never wish to deny anyone the chance to believe in what he or she wants. But all of us, no matter what our beliefs, must understand the absolute need of not placing one belief above others. We must also remember this duty when among a majority. We must feel uncomfortable and interfere when our belief gets put above others.

-----

I have held various views, but currently I think this way: I do not believe in a single and omnipotent deity. But I believe that life has a purpose. I believe that our purpose is to understand ourselves (and the world around us), that our duty is to consider who we are, what we want and why we exist. To find a way in which we can do good. To do what we can for life, peace, understanding, co-operation, friendship and love. And to face very difficult choices.

The universe often seems depressing, unjust and cruel - creating moments of peace surrounded by war, moments of love surrounded by hate. Creating wonderful things to destroy them. I do not believe that any omnipotent being would have created such a place. Thus, if the universe was created, I would consider it terribly flawed -- and would not want to know what it's creator feels like. A person responsible for such a mess would surely be *very* sad.

I find it much easier to accept that the universe formed on its own, as a mixture of chaos and order, in a way we will never truly find out (the observable universe is another story). I like to think that it is seeking balance, trying to understand itself. I believe that life is a way in which the world seeks understanding -- and that it will never be perfect, but slowly improves. If we help it. I find it sad that our essence is most probably temporary, that we will never see if we succeeded or failed. But if we should come back in new lives, we can hope to come back into a world we helped to make better.

-----

And this is it. I thank you for believing differently. Each of us has a unique way of seeing the world. As far as life is respected, as far as we treat others like we wish to be treated, all views are welcome. Diversity makes us stronger, equality is a means of preserving diversity. This is why I think that no belief should be placed above others.

<end rambling>

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 08, 2001).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: I\'m happy, sort of

Jade I stuffed up the opening line of my post it should read something like "not beleiving in a god doesnt automaticly exclude one from spirtualarity"
If you re read the following few lines you should pick up want i meant,But its a fair way back in the post so I will rehash and expand on my view, I beleive there are other possible levels of conciousness I wouldnt say that one would be the classical God but I guess we would see them in that way e.g Vorlons ,I dont know if I'd call Zen or buddism Religions maybe more pholosiphys,excuss the spelling long day>

There is no Black and white only grey.

I am grey I stand between the candle and the star.

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