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JMS on the subject of Enterprise
- Thread starter B5_Obsessed
- Start date
B5_Obsessed
Regular
Well, if he posts anything else regarding Enterprise, I'll send it along.
I just thought the "mittens" line was amusing. He's written on the subject of Trek before, saying what a shame it is that a show with a guaranteed audience and (typically) a guaranteed 7 year run fails to take any chances storywise.
The suits at Paramount like to maintain the status quo. They don't often like to show their characters change in major ways, nor do they favor killing off characters, unless they ask to leave the show - then Berman usually dispatches them in a thoroughly meaningless and spiteful way (like Tasha Yar and Jadzia Dax).
So JMS's dig was not really at Trek, but at the powers OVER Trek, who keep their writers somewhat restrained.
An example of Paramount's inflexibility is Lieutenant Savik. Director Nicholas Meyer created the character of Savik and in his draft for Star Trek VI, she becomes a traitor. There is a lot of continuity throughout the Meyer-influenced films. Paramount, however, would not let him do it because Savik was one of the good guys. So Meyer had to create the new character of Valeris, whose relationship with Spock oddly mirrors the Spock/Savik relationship. Spock's outrage depicted near the end of the film would've been more understandable had it been a character with a long history like Savik.
Granted, it was all rendered moot when Kirstie Alley left anyway. Robin Curtis' Savik was a horrendous replacement and I'm glad they left her on Vulcan in ST:IV.
So I didn't mean to tick you off, nor did JMS for that matter. He's speaking as a writer on the subject of oppressed writers. Strangely, Scott Bakula is worried about getting past 13 episodes. I don't think he has anything to worry about, but at least it's good to see the newest Trek not starting with the same complacency that previous incarnations have shown. That "If we make it, they will watch" attitude, all though true to some extent, has really dilluted the power and prestige of Trek. We deserve better.
Cautiously optimistic,
B5O
------------------
"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say. This was one. No, not good. Not supposed to mention 'one'... or 'THE one'... Mmmm. You never heard that."
I just thought the "mittens" line was amusing. He's written on the subject of Trek before, saying what a shame it is that a show with a guaranteed audience and (typically) a guaranteed 7 year run fails to take any chances storywise.
The suits at Paramount like to maintain the status quo. They don't often like to show their characters change in major ways, nor do they favor killing off characters, unless they ask to leave the show - then Berman usually dispatches them in a thoroughly meaningless and spiteful way (like Tasha Yar and Jadzia Dax).
So JMS's dig was not really at Trek, but at the powers OVER Trek, who keep their writers somewhat restrained.
An example of Paramount's inflexibility is Lieutenant Savik. Director Nicholas Meyer created the character of Savik and in his draft for Star Trek VI, she becomes a traitor. There is a lot of continuity throughout the Meyer-influenced films. Paramount, however, would not let him do it because Savik was one of the good guys. So Meyer had to create the new character of Valeris, whose relationship with Spock oddly mirrors the Spock/Savik relationship. Spock's outrage depicted near the end of the film would've been more understandable had it been a character with a long history like Savik.
Granted, it was all rendered moot when Kirstie Alley left anyway. Robin Curtis' Savik was a horrendous replacement and I'm glad they left her on Vulcan in ST:IV.
So I didn't mean to tick you off, nor did JMS for that matter. He's speaking as a writer on the subject of oppressed writers. Strangely, Scott Bakula is worried about getting past 13 episodes. I don't think he has anything to worry about, but at least it's good to see the newest Trek not starting with the same complacency that previous incarnations have shown. That "If we make it, they will watch" attitude, all though true to some extent, has really dilluted the power and prestige of Trek. We deserve better.
Cautiously optimistic,
B5O
------------------
"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say. This was one. No, not good. Not supposed to mention 'one'... or 'THE one'... Mmmm. You never heard that."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Uhh.. you say tomato and I say tomatoe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No. I say tomato, you say vegetable. I mean exactly what I say. Stop trying to redefine the discussion to whatever is most convenient for your opinions. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Trek is Paramount.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No. Paramount is not Berman. Paramount is not Taylor. Paramount is not Moore. These, and many more are the ones who "were" Trek at various times throughout the last 15 years.
Paramount are the suits who pay the bills and set the restrictions on the writers, but contribute nothing of value in the creative department. They're also the ones who gave B5 grief, just because it dared to exist:
The two shows being side by side didn't help us, I think, only hurt us. Yes, there was some press about two such shows at the same time, but it's kind of like having lots of articles about how you were partially eaten by a shark...all things considered, you'd rather have avoided the situation in the first place. It hurt us because they rushed their show out onto the air first, so that a lot of people assumed *we* were copying *them* when in fact we'd been around for five years preceding, trying to sell the show. It hurt us because some stations felt they had to choose between us, and there were a number of reporters who came to us with stories of stations being told by Paramount that they had to choose between B5 and DS9, advertisers being told that our show was going to be crappy with lousy EFX and that they shouldn't buy commercials on our show, editors being told that if they covered B5 that DS9 interviews would be withheld...the first two years were just nonstop trench warfare by Paramount, which seemed determined to drive us into the sea so that they'd have a monopoly on this area. Finally, by year three, they seemed to grudgingly accept that we were here, and we weren't going anywhere.
One producer working on another SF project with Paramount called John Copeland after a meeting with one of the top execs at the studio, to relay what happened when -- after having some problems with the EFX on the project they were working on -- he suggested maybe using the same EFX company that B5 used. The exec reportedly went on a five minute rampage about B5, quite profane, saying "It took us 25 years to build up this franchise, and those (expletives deleted) are screwing it up! Nobody who works on that show will EVER work for Paramount."
So yeah, it's been tough...at the corporate level, even though I know a number of people who are associated with both ST shows on a creative level, and we get along fine. All the problems have emanated from the corporate brass, not the creative people. We were at ground zero for a long, long time...but we're still here, in spite of it all.
jms <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>If he thinks Paramount (i.e. Trek) stole his idea for B5, then I'd say that that qualifies as "having a problem."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I repeat - he has always explicitly stated that he does not have a problem with the creative people responsible for Trek. He is in fact good friends with several of them. Don't twist his statements into something they aren't.
And "stealing" is the wrong term - He did not say they were ripping off his show. What he described was "co-opting" in regards to the pilot, where one studio rushes a film/TV series through production to dilute the value of a project from a competing studio. And DS9 was rushed into production shortly after B5 was announced (that's a matter of public record), and the two pilots did have an eerie number of similarities.
And what made the whole thing so personal was that in 1989, jms pitched B5 to those very Paramount suits responsible for Trek, giving the access to the pilot script and season 1 story lines. Negotiations went on for 6 months and they were close to signing the deal and targeting the show for fall 1990 release.
Then suddenly Paramount goes - "Well, gee, we really like your show, but it turns out we have a far too similar show in development already." <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Yeah, i know that whenever I have to sue someone that I must stop my occupation and devote every waking minute to filing depositions and interviewing potential witnesses and preping my case for ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Straw man. Does something have to take your "every waking minute" in order for it to take up too much time for you to continue your life as usual? TV production has very strict schedules, and he can't simply fit something in the next day, since they were already packed to the max. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> waitaminute, what am I thinking .... don't they have professionals whose job it is to do stuff like that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Can these "professionals" testify in court about what he did with B5 from 1987 to the present, or the meetings with Paramount? Can they write his scripts, do the producer?s cut, "spot" the music queues, cast the guest actors, approve the costumes/makeup/CGI, etc.? I think not.
Paramount would also likely launch a counter suit, possibly getting a production shut down - costing millions of dollars and wrecking havoc with the production schedule. Basically, he'd be gambling with something he'd worked 5 years to get on the air, and for very little gain. Now, I don't know if the case was strong enough to win (I have heard people who's opinion I trust say that it was), and even so, Paramount could afford to appeal it to infinity. So jms decided it just wasn't worth it, and that he was better of concentrating on making his own show. I think that was a good decision.
Re: that my feeling that jms' comments about Paramount and DS9 were justified. I just like to note that I based that on what jms has actually said. I have no idea what you think he's said, but based on your other claims about jms' opinions, I think you ought to decline to comment until you've sat down with http://www.jmsnews.com/ and done some research. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>For established works, there are ALWAYS certain rules and regulations that you have to follow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It isn't about ignoring all rules and regulations, it's about Trek "blandly going where everyone has gone before". That's jms feeling, and former Trek writers like Ron Moore (interview part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) have similar concerns. Judging by the way the franchise is headed financially, it looks like they're right.
[This message has been edited by drakh (edited August 14, 2001).]
Paramount are the suits who pay the bills and set the restrictions on the writers, but contribute nothing of value in the creative department. They're also the ones who gave B5 grief, just because it dared to exist:
The two shows being side by side didn't help us, I think, only hurt us. Yes, there was some press about two such shows at the same time, but it's kind of like having lots of articles about how you were partially eaten by a shark...all things considered, you'd rather have avoided the situation in the first place. It hurt us because they rushed their show out onto the air first, so that a lot of people assumed *we* were copying *them* when in fact we'd been around for five years preceding, trying to sell the show. It hurt us because some stations felt they had to choose between us, and there were a number of reporters who came to us with stories of stations being told by Paramount that they had to choose between B5 and DS9, advertisers being told that our show was going to be crappy with lousy EFX and that they shouldn't buy commercials on our show, editors being told that if they covered B5 that DS9 interviews would be withheld...the first two years were just nonstop trench warfare by Paramount, which seemed determined to drive us into the sea so that they'd have a monopoly on this area. Finally, by year three, they seemed to grudgingly accept that we were here, and we weren't going anywhere.
One producer working on another SF project with Paramount called John Copeland after a meeting with one of the top execs at the studio, to relay what happened when -- after having some problems with the EFX on the project they were working on -- he suggested maybe using the same EFX company that B5 used. The exec reportedly went on a five minute rampage about B5, quite profane, saying "It took us 25 years to build up this franchise, and those (expletives deleted) are screwing it up! Nobody who works on that show will EVER work for Paramount."
So yeah, it's been tough...at the corporate level, even though I know a number of people who are associated with both ST shows on a creative level, and we get along fine. All the problems have emanated from the corporate brass, not the creative people. We were at ground zero for a long, long time...but we're still here, in spite of it all.
jms <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>If he thinks Paramount (i.e. Trek) stole his idea for B5, then I'd say that that qualifies as "having a problem."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I repeat - he has always explicitly stated that he does not have a problem with the creative people responsible for Trek. He is in fact good friends with several of them. Don't twist his statements into something they aren't.
And "stealing" is the wrong term - He did not say they were ripping off his show. What he described was "co-opting" in regards to the pilot, where one studio rushes a film/TV series through production to dilute the value of a project from a competing studio. And DS9 was rushed into production shortly after B5 was announced (that's a matter of public record), and the two pilots did have an eerie number of similarities.
And what made the whole thing so personal was that in 1989, jms pitched B5 to those very Paramount suits responsible for Trek, giving the access to the pilot script and season 1 story lines. Negotiations went on for 6 months and they were close to signing the deal and targeting the show for fall 1990 release.
Then suddenly Paramount goes - "Well, gee, we really like your show, but it turns out we have a far too similar show in development already." <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Yeah, i know that whenever I have to sue someone that I must stop my occupation and devote every waking minute to filing depositions and interviewing potential witnesses and preping my case for ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Straw man. Does something have to take your "every waking minute" in order for it to take up too much time for you to continue your life as usual? TV production has very strict schedules, and he can't simply fit something in the next day, since they were already packed to the max. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> waitaminute, what am I thinking .... don't they have professionals whose job it is to do stuff like that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Can these "professionals" testify in court about what he did with B5 from 1987 to the present, or the meetings with Paramount? Can they write his scripts, do the producer?s cut, "spot" the music queues, cast the guest actors, approve the costumes/makeup/CGI, etc.? I think not.
Paramount would also likely launch a counter suit, possibly getting a production shut down - costing millions of dollars and wrecking havoc with the production schedule. Basically, he'd be gambling with something he'd worked 5 years to get on the air, and for very little gain. Now, I don't know if the case was strong enough to win (I have heard people who's opinion I trust say that it was), and even so, Paramount could afford to appeal it to infinity. So jms decided it just wasn't worth it, and that he was better of concentrating on making his own show. I think that was a good decision.
Re: that my feeling that jms' comments about Paramount and DS9 were justified. I just like to note that I based that on what jms has actually said. I have no idea what you think he's said, but based on your other claims about jms' opinions, I think you ought to decline to comment until you've sat down with http://www.jmsnews.com/ and done some research. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>For established works, there are ALWAYS certain rules and regulations that you have to follow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It isn't about ignoring all rules and regulations, it's about Trek "blandly going where everyone has gone before". That's jms feeling, and former Trek writers like Ron Moore (interview part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) have similar concerns. Judging by the way the franchise is headed financially, it looks like they're right.
[This message has been edited by drakh (edited August 14, 2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> No. I say tomato, you say vegetable. I mean exactly what I say. Stop trying to redefine the discussion to whatever is most convenient for your opinions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did you even think about what you wrote before you wrote it? Basically, you just told me to stop being so damn clever.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Trek is Paramount.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is now and forever shall be.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I repeat - he has always explicitly stated that he does not have a problem with the creative people responsible for Trek. He is in fact good friends with several of them. Don't twist his statements into something they aren't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not twisting anything since I haven't any more of clue what he thinks than you do. All I said is that I've seen a few positive things he's said about trek and a whole lotta negative things. But I don't think its out-of-bounds to say that he has some sort of problem with Trek (in whatever form you wish to call it... Berman/Braga/Paramount/TPTB...etc.)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Straw man. Does something have to take your "every waking minute" in order for it to take up too much time for you to continue your life as usual? TV production has very strict schedules, and he can't simply fit something in the next day, since they were already packed to the max. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Arguments stepped in absolutes are most often torn down by 'straw man' arguments. But even what you said doesn't make sense. Just how much work do you think a layman does in a lawsuit? As I said, there are people called lawyers who actually do the work. Even if a suit were filed, it would have literally taken years before an actual court case.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Can these "professionals" testify in court about what he did with B5 from 1987 to the present, or the meetings with Paramount? Can they write his scripts, do the producer?s cut, "spot" the music queues, cast the guest actors, approve the costumes/makeup/CGI, etc.? I think not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said, it would have been years before the case would have even come to trial. And just because you file doesn't necessarily mean that you even want it to go to court. In many, many cases, filing a lawsuit is just the first step in a settlement. It seems to me that if he really felt ripped off then he would have at least gone to that step...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It isn't about ignoring all rules and regulations, it's about Trek "blandly going where everyone has gone before". That's jms feeling, and former Trek writers like Ron Moore (interview part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) have similar concerns. Judging by the way the franchise is headed financially, it looks like they're <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So. That really doesn't prove a thing to me, other than the fact that you-- for some odd reason-- have committed some innocuous interviews to memory. Personally, I think a lot of these people (JMS included) are a wee bit jealous of the immense success that Trek has had. B5LR can't even generate enough heat to get the sci-fi people to make an announcement on a series yet .... Enterprise is already a guaranteed hit. While B5 fans have to scour the internet for news on B5LR, Enterprise is on the cover of TV Guide, Entertainment Weekly and featured on Entertainment Tonight. Enterprise is already the most anticipated series of the year, nobody can even say for certain if B5LR will be a series. Regardless of what you might believe or a pair of disgruntled postal workers might say, ST must be doing something right.
------------------
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited August 14, 2001).]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did you even think about what you wrote before you wrote it? Basically, you just told me to stop being so damn clever.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Trek is Paramount.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is now and forever shall be.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I repeat - he has always explicitly stated that he does not have a problem with the creative people responsible for Trek. He is in fact good friends with several of them. Don't twist his statements into something they aren't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not twisting anything since I haven't any more of clue what he thinks than you do. All I said is that I've seen a few positive things he's said about trek and a whole lotta negative things. But I don't think its out-of-bounds to say that he has some sort of problem with Trek (in whatever form you wish to call it... Berman/Braga/Paramount/TPTB...etc.)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Straw man. Does something have to take your "every waking minute" in order for it to take up too much time for you to continue your life as usual? TV production has very strict schedules, and he can't simply fit something in the next day, since they were already packed to the max. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Arguments stepped in absolutes are most often torn down by 'straw man' arguments. But even what you said doesn't make sense. Just how much work do you think a layman does in a lawsuit? As I said, there are people called lawyers who actually do the work. Even if a suit were filed, it would have literally taken years before an actual court case.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Can these "professionals" testify in court about what he did with B5 from 1987 to the present, or the meetings with Paramount? Can they write his scripts, do the producer?s cut, "spot" the music queues, cast the guest actors, approve the costumes/makeup/CGI, etc.? I think not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said, it would have been years before the case would have even come to trial. And just because you file doesn't necessarily mean that you even want it to go to court. In many, many cases, filing a lawsuit is just the first step in a settlement. It seems to me that if he really felt ripped off then he would have at least gone to that step...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It isn't about ignoring all rules and regulations, it's about Trek "blandly going where everyone has gone before". That's jms feeling, and former Trek writers like Ron Moore (interview part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) have similar concerns. Judging by the way the franchise is headed financially, it looks like they're <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So. That really doesn't prove a thing to me, other than the fact that you-- for some odd reason-- have committed some innocuous interviews to memory. Personally, I think a lot of these people (JMS included) are a wee bit jealous of the immense success that Trek has had. B5LR can't even generate enough heat to get the sci-fi people to make an announcement on a series yet .... Enterprise is already a guaranteed hit. While B5 fans have to scour the internet for news on B5LR, Enterprise is on the cover of TV Guide, Entertainment Weekly and featured on Entertainment Tonight. Enterprise is already the most anticipated series of the year, nobody can even say for certain if B5LR will be a series. Regardless of what you might believe or a pair of disgruntled postal workers might say, ST must be doing something right.
------------------
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited August 14, 2001).]
Technomage Roanna
Regular
Drakh and Bakana:
Between you and Joe D, I've learned a lot about the history of B5. It's a pleasure to read opinions so firmly grounded in research and I just wanted to say how much I enjoy reading your posts.
Thanks for taking the time.
Ro
------------------
I have no surviving
enemies. At all.
Galen
Between you and Joe D, I've learned a lot about the history of B5. It's a pleasure to read opinions so firmly grounded in research and I just wanted to say how much I enjoy reading your posts.
Thanks for taking the time.
Ro
------------------
I have no surviving
enemies. At all.
Galen
Capt. Neville
Regular
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Drakh and Bakana: (and Joe D.)
...Thanks for taking the time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll second that one. It's nice to see that there are people who are devoted enough to what they are interested in to learn as much about it as you all do. It's also nice to see people stand up for their positions using actual facts and researched data rather than opinions or supposition (not to mention doing so to defend the reputation and good name of one of the best Sci-Fi writers of our time).
Keep up the good work, guys!
Cheers,
-mcn
...Thanks for taking the time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll second that one. It's nice to see that there are people who are devoted enough to what they are interested in to learn as much about it as you all do. It's also nice to see people stand up for their positions using actual facts and researched data rather than opinions or supposition (not to mention doing so to defend the reputation and good name of one of the best Sci-Fi writers of our time).
Keep up the good work, guys!
Cheers,
-mcn
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Regardless of what you might believe or a pair of disgruntled postal workers might say, ST must be doing something right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. They are buying a LOT of advertising space.
In all those same places that are publishing so many stories about "Enterprise, The Next Flop".
------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
Yes. They are buying a LOT of advertising space.
In all those same places that are publishing so many stories about "Enterprise, The Next Flop".
------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Yes. They are buying a LOT of advertising space.
In all those same places that are publishing so many stories about "Enterprise, The Next Flop". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I probably have more problems with Trek than even you do, but I'm just sick and tired of all the ST bashing. Frankly, I think B&B have had more successes than failures and now, when it seems that they are finally on track, they still catch hell. And I'm not against JMS either -- regardless of what someone earlier implied-- but you just can't gloss over some of his missteps either. As I've often stated, S5 is basically a pale shadow (sorry for the pun) of seasons 1-4. Crusade was an utter failure that only lasted for 13 episodes -- for whatever reason. And now sci-fi, apparently, isn't even impressed enough with B5LR and B5 fans in general to even give the go ahead for an on-going series.
But I'm still going to watch the latest JMS's stuff, regardless of these failures, because he succeeds more than he fails. Same goes for Trek. So I'm sorry that I can't seem to muster a lot of intrest whenever someone cuts and pastes JMS's latest dig at Trek. No doubt some of the Trek people could come up with some of their own digs with JMS's stuff, but I wouldn't find that at all interesting either.
------------------
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
In all those same places that are publishing so many stories about "Enterprise, The Next Flop". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I probably have more problems with Trek than even you do, but I'm just sick and tired of all the ST bashing. Frankly, I think B&B have had more successes than failures and now, when it seems that they are finally on track, they still catch hell. And I'm not against JMS either -- regardless of what someone earlier implied-- but you just can't gloss over some of his missteps either. As I've often stated, S5 is basically a pale shadow (sorry for the pun) of seasons 1-4. Crusade was an utter failure that only lasted for 13 episodes -- for whatever reason. And now sci-fi, apparently, isn't even impressed enough with B5LR and B5 fans in general to even give the go ahead for an on-going series.
But I'm still going to watch the latest JMS's stuff, regardless of these failures, because he succeeds more than he fails. Same goes for Trek. So I'm sorry that I can't seem to muster a lot of intrest whenever someone cuts and pastes JMS's latest dig at Trek. No doubt some of the Trek people could come up with some of their own digs with JMS's stuff, but I wouldn't find that at all interesting either.
------------------
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The Merry Minuet
They're rioting in Africa,
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans,
The Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs,
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much!
But we can be thankful and tranquil and proud
Man's been endowed with the mushroom-shaped cloud
("Lllovely!" "Thank you.")
And we know for certain that some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off
("Smashing!" "Yes!")
And we will all be blown away
They're rioting in Africa,
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
They're rioting in Africa,
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans,
The Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs,
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much!
But we can be thankful and tranquil and proud
Man's been endowed with the mushroom-shaped cloud
("Lllovely!" "Thank you.")
And we know for certain that some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off
("Smashing!" "Yes!")
And we will all be blown away
They're rioting in Africa,
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Did you even think about what you wrote before you wrote it? Basically, you just told me to stop being so damn clever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So you think acting like a 8 year old who makes up new rules each time he looses at a game... is clever? It's an elementary discussion fallacy, used by people unable face defeat. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>[Paramount = Trek] now and forever shall be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why? Because you say so? Because you're always right? Because you've used you superior reporter skills to do in-depth research into the matter?
Paramount did not write "City on the Edge of Forever". Or "Threshold". Or "Best of Both Worlds". Or "Favorite Son".
Jeri Taylor did not tell the directors on Trek that they could forget about working for Trek again if they did an episode ef B5. Berman did not try to launch a show called "Babylon" to be aired on many of the same channels as "Babylon 5".
Why do you ignore this? Why do keep on clinging to the absurd notion that Paramount and the team that produces Trek can't be commented on separately? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not twisting anything since I haven't any more of clue what he thinks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yet you say he bashes Trek and is envious of it's success. Are sayng that you made all that stuff up? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>than you do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have a pretty good memory, and most of what I read sticks. I've read the entire archive of jms' postings and every interview with him I could get my hands on. In these, he sometimes does express his feelings towards specific things, and together they form a pretty solid picture of who he is.
At the very least, that makes me far more qualified than you. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>All I said is that I've seen a few positive things he's said about trek and a whole lotta negative things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've backed up my claims with direct quotes. Time for you to do the same. Go find me the "whole lotta negative things" at http://jmsnews.com/
Or are you afraid you won't find them? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> But I don't think its out-of-bounds to say that he has some sort of problem with Trek (in whatever form you wish to call it... Berman/Braga/Paramount/TPTB...etc.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He does have a problem with DS9, and how it was used to undermine B5. He doesn't like that something he once loved, is now drowning in a sea of mediocrity. Beyond that, your accusation doesn't have a leg to stand on until you're willing to supply some proof. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Arguments stepped in absolutes are most often torn down by 'straw man' arguments<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A straw man is a flawed argument put into your opponents mouth so you can easily defeat it - showing your prowess by knocking down a man of straw. It's another elementary discussion fallacy, used by people who are unable to come up with any real arguments. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It seems to me that if he really felt ripped off then he would have at least gone to that step...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I refer you to the paragraph about co-opting in a previous post. His problem was that DS9 was being used to smother B5. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>So. That really doesn't prove a thing to me, other than the fact that you-- for some odd reason-- have committed some innocuous interviews to memory.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I read through them once, and have subsequently found them useful in a number of discussions. And what was the point of that remark? Trying to make me feel "bad" about posting the links so I wouldn't hassle you about ignoring their contents? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Personally, I think a lot of these people (JMS included) are a wee bit jealous of the immense success that Trek has had.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, you think, in spite of jms walking away from increasing amounts of money and prestige whenever someone tried to "put mittens on him", his comments towards modern Trek (and Voyager in particular) are really motivated by jealousy?
And Moore, who started out as story editor on TNG and worked himself up to co-executive producer on DS9 and later Voyager (something you'd know if you actually read the interview... or even spent 30 seconds on IMDB), had gotten all the Trek success he could ever want when he quit Voyager in disgust.
Both are people who genuinely loved TOS, and are motivated by concern for what Trek has become. It's too bad you're so hung up on your own cynicism that you refuse to see that. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Enterprise is already a guaranteed hit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is it? You see, there was a reason I linked the the "Trouble with Trek" article above... It handles touches upon this very subject, that the franchise is declining, and wont be the cash cow it was for much longer.
"Insurection" barely broke even at the box office. And Voyager is getting ratings that would have gotten it cancelled on any other network[1], being kept on life support due to the fact that it was UPN's highest rated show (and note that UPN still has no prospect of turning a profit in the near future).
Hit? I doubt it.
[1] While WBN shows are generally lower rated, it is less distributed network than the others and has lower operating costs.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Regardless of what you might believe or a pair of disgruntled postal workers might say, ST must be doing something right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So far, it's mostly runninig on inertia. We'll see what happens when it runs out.
[This message has been edited by drakh (edited August 16, 2001).]
Paramount did not write "City on the Edge of Forever". Or "Threshold". Or "Best of Both Worlds". Or "Favorite Son".
Jeri Taylor did not tell the directors on Trek that they could forget about working for Trek again if they did an episode ef B5. Berman did not try to launch a show called "Babylon" to be aired on many of the same channels as "Babylon 5".
Why do you ignore this? Why do keep on clinging to the absurd notion that Paramount and the team that produces Trek can't be commented on separately? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not twisting anything since I haven't any more of clue what he thinks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yet you say he bashes Trek and is envious of it's success. Are sayng that you made all that stuff up? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>than you do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have a pretty good memory, and most of what I read sticks. I've read the entire archive of jms' postings and every interview with him I could get my hands on. In these, he sometimes does express his feelings towards specific things, and together they form a pretty solid picture of who he is.
At the very least, that makes me far more qualified than you. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>All I said is that I've seen a few positive things he's said about trek and a whole lotta negative things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've backed up my claims with direct quotes. Time for you to do the same. Go find me the "whole lotta negative things" at http://jmsnews.com/
Or are you afraid you won't find them? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> But I don't think its out-of-bounds to say that he has some sort of problem with Trek (in whatever form you wish to call it... Berman/Braga/Paramount/TPTB...etc.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He does have a problem with DS9, and how it was used to undermine B5. He doesn't like that something he once loved, is now drowning in a sea of mediocrity. Beyond that, your accusation doesn't have a leg to stand on until you're willing to supply some proof. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Arguments stepped in absolutes are most often torn down by 'straw man' arguments<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A straw man is a flawed argument put into your opponents mouth so you can easily defeat it - showing your prowess by knocking down a man of straw. It's another elementary discussion fallacy, used by people who are unable to come up with any real arguments. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It seems to me that if he really felt ripped off then he would have at least gone to that step...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I refer you to the paragraph about co-opting in a previous post. His problem was that DS9 was being used to smother B5. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>So. That really doesn't prove a thing to me, other than the fact that you-- for some odd reason-- have committed some innocuous interviews to memory.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I read through them once, and have subsequently found them useful in a number of discussions. And what was the point of that remark? Trying to make me feel "bad" about posting the links so I wouldn't hassle you about ignoring their contents? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Personally, I think a lot of these people (JMS included) are a wee bit jealous of the immense success that Trek has had.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, you think, in spite of jms walking away from increasing amounts of money and prestige whenever someone tried to "put mittens on him", his comments towards modern Trek (and Voyager in particular) are really motivated by jealousy?
And Moore, who started out as story editor on TNG and worked himself up to co-executive producer on DS9 and later Voyager (something you'd know if you actually read the interview... or even spent 30 seconds on IMDB), had gotten all the Trek success he could ever want when he quit Voyager in disgust.
Both are people who genuinely loved TOS, and are motivated by concern for what Trek has become. It's too bad you're so hung up on your own cynicism that you refuse to see that. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Enterprise is already a guaranteed hit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is it? You see, there was a reason I linked the the "Trouble with Trek" article above... It handles touches upon this very subject, that the franchise is declining, and wont be the cash cow it was for much longer.
"Insurection" barely broke even at the box office. And Voyager is getting ratings that would have gotten it cancelled on any other network[1], being kept on life support due to the fact that it was UPN's highest rated show (and note that UPN still has no prospect of turning a profit in the near future).
Hit? I doubt it.
[1] While WBN shows are generally lower rated, it is less distributed network than the others and has lower operating costs.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Regardless of what you might believe or a pair of disgruntled postal workers might say, ST must be doing something right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So far, it's mostly runninig on inertia. We'll see what happens when it runs out.
[This message has been edited by drakh (edited August 16, 2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:
I probably have more problems with Trek than even you do, but I'm just sick and tired of all the ST bashing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>By jms? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Frankly, I think B&B have had more successes than failures and now,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Then your problems with their Trek are miniscule in comparison to what's posted in the B5 and general SF oriented discussion forums I follow. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>when it seems that they are finally on track, they still catch hell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Right track? You mean like when they said Voyager would have conflict between the Starfleet and Marqui(sp?) characters? Or that the ship would be tight on resources and couldn't rely on a lot of the tech the TNG crew took for granted?
Their problems run far deeper than the name of the show. Read the Ron Moore interview if you're actually interested in having an informed opinion on the matter. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And I'm not against JMS either -- regardless of what someone earlier implied<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, I'm sure you think Joe's decent guy (as envious axe-grinding small time TV producers go)... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>-- but you just can't gloss over some of his missteps either. As I've often stated, S5 is basically a pale shadow (sorry for the pun) of seasons 1-4. Crusade was an utter failure that only lasted for 13 episodes -- for whatever reason.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And?
(And just for the recored, I disagree with your blanket condemnation of season 5 and Crusade, but my feeling about the two have been covered in other threads.) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And now sci-fi, apparently, isn't even impressed enough with B5LR and B5 fans in general to even give the go ahead for an on-going series.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>So I'm sorry that I can't seem to muster a lot of intrest whenever someone cuts and pastes JMS's latest dig at Trek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There you go again implying that
1. The message was intended as a "dig".
2. It's something he does often.
I have supplied several qoutes where he talks about his problems with some aspects of Trek in a forthright but diplomatic matter. The quote from the start of this thread was not a clear dig, and there is no basis for interpeting it as such given the other quotes I supplied.
You have also made absolutely no attempt to establish that he makes frequent negative remarks about Trek. I certainly hoven't seen them.
What does it take to get through to you that just because you say something doesn't make it true?
[This message has been edited by drakh (edited August 16, 2001).]
I probably have more problems with Trek than even you do, but I'm just sick and tired of all the ST bashing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>By jms? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Frankly, I think B&B have had more successes than failures and now,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Then your problems with their Trek are miniscule in comparison to what's posted in the B5 and general SF oriented discussion forums I follow. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>when it seems that they are finally on track, they still catch hell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Right track? You mean like when they said Voyager would have conflict between the Starfleet and Marqui(sp?) characters? Or that the ship would be tight on resources and couldn't rely on a lot of the tech the TNG crew took for granted?
Their problems run far deeper than the name of the show. Read the Ron Moore interview if you're actually interested in having an informed opinion on the matter. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And I'm not against JMS either -- regardless of what someone earlier implied<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, I'm sure you think Joe's decent guy (as envious axe-grinding small time TV producers go)... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>-- but you just can't gloss over some of his missteps either. As I've often stated, S5 is basically a pale shadow (sorry for the pun) of seasons 1-4. Crusade was an utter failure that only lasted for 13 episodes -- for whatever reason.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And?
(And just for the recored, I disagree with your blanket condemnation of season 5 and Crusade, but my feeling about the two have been covered in other threads.) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And now sci-fi, apparently, isn't even impressed enough with B5LR and B5 fans in general to even give the go ahead for an on-going series.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>So I'm sorry that I can't seem to muster a lot of intrest whenever someone cuts and pastes JMS's latest dig at Trek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There you go again implying that
1. The message was intended as a "dig".
2. It's something he does often.
I have supplied several qoutes where he talks about his problems with some aspects of Trek in a forthright but diplomatic matter. The quote from the start of this thread was not a clear dig, and there is no basis for interpeting it as such given the other quotes I supplied.
You have also made absolutely no attempt to establish that he makes frequent negative remarks about Trek. I certainly hoven't seen them.
What does it take to get through to you that just because you say something doesn't make it true?
[This message has been edited by drakh (edited August 16, 2001).]
GKarsEye
Regular
Ding ding ding!
Drakh and Psion, back to your corners.
This argument will never be resolved.
Drakh is arguing with logic and proof and making effective arguments. However, he is falsely assuming that Psion is attempting to do the same.
Psion has made it quite clear that he is not concerned with that sort of thing. He was expressing his general "feeling" about Trek/B5/jms, whatever.
Neither is "wrong" to do so, but the argument itself makes no sense. It would be like one person trying to explain the scientific nature of the color spectrum, and the other person saying that his favorite color is blue. It is impossible to resolve.
I've written about this sort of thing in the creation/evolution threads on this board. When two people are arguing about different things in different ways, of course no solution can be found.
Here's a silly question: Why the hell should we care what JMS thinks about Trek?
------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
Drakh and Psion, back to your corners.
This argument will never be resolved.
Drakh is arguing with logic and proof and making effective arguments. However, he is falsely assuming that Psion is attempting to do the same.
Psion has made it quite clear that he is not concerned with that sort of thing. He was expressing his general "feeling" about Trek/B5/jms, whatever.
Neither is "wrong" to do so, but the argument itself makes no sense. It would be like one person trying to explain the scientific nature of the color spectrum, and the other person saying that his favorite color is blue. It is impossible to resolve.
I've written about this sort of thing in the creation/evolution threads on this board. When two people are arguing about different things in different ways, of course no solution can be found.
Here's a silly question: Why the hell should we care what JMS thinks about Trek?
------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> So you think acting like a 5 year old who makes up new rules each time he looses at a game... is clever? It's an elementary discussion fallacy, used by people unable face defeat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Speaking of five-year-olds, you're the only poster here to get into name-calling, so I'll just as soon seek advice about debating techniques from someone else.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Why? Because you say so? Because you're always right? Because you've used you superior reporter skills to do in-depth research into the matter?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Funny how it seems that my position is always wrong and yours is always right when the evidence cuts both ways. I don't really care how many forgotten Trek writers you can pull outta thin air, Trek is Paramount. Trek can't do a damn thing without Paramount's ok and you damn well know it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Yet you say he bashes Trek and is envious of it's success. Are sayng that you made all that stuff up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, I don't claim to know anymore than you do. I read the same JMS quotes that you have and, yes, I have seen some where he bashes Trek. And he most likely is a bit envious of Trek... I could gather that much from this latest quote.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I have a pretty good memory, and most of what I read sticks. I've read the entire archive of jms' postings and every interview with him I could get my hands on. In these, he sometimes does express his feelings towards specific things, and together they form a pretty solid picture of who he is.
At the very least, that makes me far more qualified than you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bub, I have no idea what you read on your time off. You might be putting together a fertilizer bomb in your mom's basement for all I know. Unless you actually are JMS, or a relative, or a close friend, then I don't see how you can presume to know him better than everyone else on Planet Earth. Just about everyone here has read a good majority of JMS quotes .. either here, on Lurker's, the old sci-fi site, or even the archive for JMS quotes. And I daresay that some here might even know his stuff chapter in verse better than you. Basically, what you just did was make a wild assumption. You assumed that because I wrote something that you deemed negative about JMS that I (1) do not like B5; (2) do not like JMS; or (3) do not know either very well. You would be wrong on all three. There's nobody on earth that I love better than my mother, but that doesn't change the fact that she can be a downright b!tch at times. I like a lot of JMS's stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that he can come off as arrogant and petty at times.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I've backed up my claims with direct quotes. Time for you to do the same. Go find me the "whole lotta negative things" at http://jmsnews.com/
Or are you afraid you won't find them?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some people, including me, work for a living. Even if I had the time to go through your archive, I would not. I think you're deluding yourself if you think JMS has never said anything of a negative connotation about Trek. The quote that started this whole thread is one. And another thing, since when did this become an "I Know JMS Better Than You Know JMS" contest? If that's the case, then I bow to your superior ability to memorize the ramblings of a famous writer. Congrats. But none of that changes perception now does it? When you read that little mittens quote at the start of this thread, you probably filed it in your memory circuits with all the other JMS quotes that you have collected over the years. I read it and saw it as a dig at Trek. Now who are you to tell me that my perception is wrong? I don't care if you're JMS himself, there's no way that you can tell me that what I perceived was wrong.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>He does have a problem with DS9, and how it was used to undermine B5. He doesn't like that something he once loved, is now drowning in a sea of mediocrity. Beyond that, your accusation doesn't have a leg to stand on until you're willing to supply some proof. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What accuasation are you talking about? You just admitted that he does have a problem with Trek ... thank you for agreeing with what I said two days ago! And as far as your perception of DS9, you don't see me whipping out the "I Know DS9 and Braga Better Than You Do" contest. Maybe Trek has a problem with some writer who had a mildly successful sci-fi series alluding to the fact that they basically "stole" (used, appropriated, borrowed... whatever...) his idea and used it for their own purposes. I know I would be pissed if that guy never actually sued me... In fact, I'd be in a better legal position to sue him for libel if those comments got too far out-of-hand.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Enterprise is already a guaranteed hit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't think so? Wanna bet? -- no, I don't think you do.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I read through them once, and have subsequently found them useful in a number of discussions. And what was the point of that remark? Trying to make me feel "bad" about posting the links so I wouldn't hassle you about ignoring their contents? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The point of what? And you're hardly hassling me, since I've never clicked on a single link you've posted. I actually think its remarkable you can remember all of that stuff. The only things I know verbatim is Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, the Preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence... and a couple of old commericals... Oscar Meyer Weiner, Life cereal...
------------------
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
Speaking of five-year-olds, you're the only poster here to get into name-calling, so I'll just as soon seek advice about debating techniques from someone else.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Why? Because you say so? Because you're always right? Because you've used you superior reporter skills to do in-depth research into the matter?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Funny how it seems that my position is always wrong and yours is always right when the evidence cuts both ways. I don't really care how many forgotten Trek writers you can pull outta thin air, Trek is Paramount. Trek can't do a damn thing without Paramount's ok and you damn well know it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Yet you say he bashes Trek and is envious of it's success. Are sayng that you made all that stuff up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, I don't claim to know anymore than you do. I read the same JMS quotes that you have and, yes, I have seen some where he bashes Trek. And he most likely is a bit envious of Trek... I could gather that much from this latest quote.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I have a pretty good memory, and most of what I read sticks. I've read the entire archive of jms' postings and every interview with him I could get my hands on. In these, he sometimes does express his feelings towards specific things, and together they form a pretty solid picture of who he is.
At the very least, that makes me far more qualified than you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bub, I have no idea what you read on your time off. You might be putting together a fertilizer bomb in your mom's basement for all I know. Unless you actually are JMS, or a relative, or a close friend, then I don't see how you can presume to know him better than everyone else on Planet Earth. Just about everyone here has read a good majority of JMS quotes .. either here, on Lurker's, the old sci-fi site, or even the archive for JMS quotes. And I daresay that some here might even know his stuff chapter in verse better than you. Basically, what you just did was make a wild assumption. You assumed that because I wrote something that you deemed negative about JMS that I (1) do not like B5; (2) do not like JMS; or (3) do not know either very well. You would be wrong on all three. There's nobody on earth that I love better than my mother, but that doesn't change the fact that she can be a downright b!tch at times. I like a lot of JMS's stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that he can come off as arrogant and petty at times.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I've backed up my claims with direct quotes. Time for you to do the same. Go find me the "whole lotta negative things" at http://jmsnews.com/
Or are you afraid you won't find them?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some people, including me, work for a living. Even if I had the time to go through your archive, I would not. I think you're deluding yourself if you think JMS has never said anything of a negative connotation about Trek. The quote that started this whole thread is one. And another thing, since when did this become an "I Know JMS Better Than You Know JMS" contest? If that's the case, then I bow to your superior ability to memorize the ramblings of a famous writer. Congrats. But none of that changes perception now does it? When you read that little mittens quote at the start of this thread, you probably filed it in your memory circuits with all the other JMS quotes that you have collected over the years. I read it and saw it as a dig at Trek. Now who are you to tell me that my perception is wrong? I don't care if you're JMS himself, there's no way that you can tell me that what I perceived was wrong.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>He does have a problem with DS9, and how it was used to undermine B5. He doesn't like that something he once loved, is now drowning in a sea of mediocrity. Beyond that, your accusation doesn't have a leg to stand on until you're willing to supply some proof. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What accuasation are you talking about? You just admitted that he does have a problem with Trek ... thank you for agreeing with what I said two days ago! And as far as your perception of DS9, you don't see me whipping out the "I Know DS9 and Braga Better Than You Do" contest. Maybe Trek has a problem with some writer who had a mildly successful sci-fi series alluding to the fact that they basically "stole" (used, appropriated, borrowed... whatever...) his idea and used it for their own purposes. I know I would be pissed if that guy never actually sued me... In fact, I'd be in a better legal position to sue him for libel if those comments got too far out-of-hand.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Enterprise is already a guaranteed hit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't think so? Wanna bet? -- no, I don't think you do.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I read through them once, and have subsequently found them useful in a number of discussions. And what was the point of that remark? Trying to make me feel "bad" about posting the links so I wouldn't hassle you about ignoring their contents? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The point of what? And you're hardly hassling me, since I've never clicked on a single link you've posted. I actually think its remarkable you can remember all of that stuff. The only things I know verbatim is Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, the Preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence... and a couple of old commericals... Oscar Meyer Weiner, Life cereal...
------------------
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
When two people are arguing about different things in different ways, of course no solution can be found.
Here's a silly question: Why the hell should we care what JMS thinks about Trek?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes! Thank you! GkarsEye, you got the whole thread in a nutshell. I'm not sure whether this is a flame war or a troll, but this sure as hell ain't about B5 or Trek anymore.
We got posters here either too interested in Being Right or too outraged to listen anymore. I've gotten caught in both traps, so I know what it's like.
Everyone do themselves a favor and pull back. It's not a discussion unless people hear each other out.
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Joe Medina (neargrai@aol.com)
"...that which are, we are"
When two people are arguing about different things in different ways, of course no solution can be found.
Here's a silly question: Why the hell should we care what JMS thinks about Trek?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes! Thank you! GkarsEye, you got the whole thread in a nutshell. I'm not sure whether this is a flame war or a troll, but this sure as hell ain't about B5 or Trek anymore.
We got posters here either too interested in Being Right or too outraged to listen anymore. I've gotten caught in both traps, so I know what it's like.
Everyone do themselves a favor and pull back. It's not a discussion unless people hear each other out.
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Joe Medina (neargrai@aol.com)
"...that which are, we are"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Ding ding ding!
Drakh and Psion, back to your corners.
This argument will never be resolved.
Drakh is arguing with logic and proof and making effective arguments. However, he is falsely assuming that Psion is attempting to do the same.
Psion has made it quite clear that he is not concerned with that sort of thing. He was expressing his general "feeling" about Trek/B5/jms, whatever.
Neither is "wrong" to do so, but the argument itself makes no sense. It would be like one person trying to explain the scientific nature of the color spectrum, and the other person saying that his favorite color is blue. It is impossible to resolve.
I've written about this sort of thing in the creation/evolution threads on this board. When two people are arguing about different things in different ways, of course no solution can be found.
Here's a silly question: Why the hell should we care what JMS thinks about Trek?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Opps. I posted before I read this well-thought out cease fire ... reminds me of old Japanesse soilders trapped on small islands in the Pacific who think that WWII is still going on... As usual GKE, you're right. Just wanted to get something off my chest that had been building up, now i'm finished... back to oppressing the working class.
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The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
Drakh and Psion, back to your corners.
This argument will never be resolved.
Drakh is arguing with logic and proof and making effective arguments. However, he is falsely assuming that Psion is attempting to do the same.
Psion has made it quite clear that he is not concerned with that sort of thing. He was expressing his general "feeling" about Trek/B5/jms, whatever.
Neither is "wrong" to do so, but the argument itself makes no sense. It would be like one person trying to explain the scientific nature of the color spectrum, and the other person saying that his favorite color is blue. It is impossible to resolve.
I've written about this sort of thing in the creation/evolution threads on this board. When two people are arguing about different things in different ways, of course no solution can be found.
Here's a silly question: Why the hell should we care what JMS thinks about Trek?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Opps. I posted before I read this well-thought out cease fire ... reminds me of old Japanesse soilders trapped on small islands in the Pacific who think that WWII is still going on... As usual GKE, you're right. Just wanted to get something off my chest that had been building up, now i'm finished... back to oppressing the working class.
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The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darquin:
I'm not sure whether this is a flame war or a troll, but this sure as hell ain't about B5 or Trek anymore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, for my part it is simple:
I have a great deal of repect for jms.
I would have far less respect for the person PsionTen characterises him as (a petty man who hurls baseless unprovoked insults at the oposition out of jealousy on a regular basis).
I am fairly certain this characterization is wrong, and I'm posting whatever proof I feel supports my side, while challenging Psion to come up with similar proof to the oposite. Should he do so, I would consider it, and concede if it was strong enough. So far, he has not.
Thus I am becomming aware that, like GKarsEye indicated, Psion is far more interested in having his opinion than discussing it (contrary to what I thought message boards were about). I will consider wheter it's worth my time to reply to him, and if I decide to reply, it will have to wait until I have the time to write it.
[This message has been edited by drakh (edited August 16, 2001).]
I'm not sure whether this is a flame war or a troll, but this sure as hell ain't about B5 or Trek anymore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, for my part it is simple:
I have a great deal of repect for jms.
I would have far less respect for the person PsionTen characterises him as (a petty man who hurls baseless unprovoked insults at the oposition out of jealousy on a regular basis).
I am fairly certain this characterization is wrong, and I'm posting whatever proof I feel supports my side, while challenging Psion to come up with similar proof to the oposite. Should he do so, I would consider it, and concede if it was strong enough. So far, he has not.
Thus I am becomming aware that, like GKarsEye indicated, Psion is far more interested in having his opinion than discussing it (contrary to what I thought message boards were about). I will consider wheter it's worth my time to reply to him, and if I decide to reply, it will have to wait until I have the time to write it.
[This message has been edited by drakh (edited August 16, 2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Thus I am becomming aware that, like GKarsEye indicated, Psion is far more interested in having his opinion than discussing it (contrary to what I thought message boards were about). I will consider wheter it's worth my time to reply to him, and if I decide to reply, it will have to wait until I have the time to write it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
C'mon now its time to play nice again. But now that you mention it, I thought this board was exactly the right place for stating opinions. And I thought that I went to great lengths to discuss my opinion. But I think that GKE had it right when he said that I was discussing my feelings over the whole thing. As far as me disparaging the image of JMS, or however you characterize it, I've stated over and over again that I think he's a brilliant writer.... But I've read some of the stuff he's said over the years and some it, quite frankly, left a bad taste in my mouth. This latest dig at Trek was just another one. Obviously, you think differently and would like me go through his archives and cut and paste everything over the years that I thought was suspect ... but even if I did this, as GKE has said, it would end in futility. Just this last quote of his has wrought all of this. I think that's enough.
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The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited August 16, 2001).]
C'mon now its time to play nice again. But now that you mention it, I thought this board was exactly the right place for stating opinions. And I thought that I went to great lengths to discuss my opinion. But I think that GKE had it right when he said that I was discussing my feelings over the whole thing. As far as me disparaging the image of JMS, or however you characterize it, I've stated over and over again that I think he's a brilliant writer.... But I've read some of the stuff he's said over the years and some it, quite frankly, left a bad taste in my mouth. This latest dig at Trek was just another one. Obviously, you think differently and would like me go through his archives and cut and paste everything over the years that I thought was suspect ... but even if I did this, as GKE has said, it would end in futility. Just this last quote of his has wrought all of this. I think that's enough.
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The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited August 16, 2001).]
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
First, thanks for cooling it, guys. Believe me; trying to debate subjective impression is like trying to defuse a bomb while blindfolded.
I think I hold jms in some regard too. And yes, he has said negative things about Trek.
The problem is this:
Even you could prove or disprove the merits of those statements, hardly anyone is going to notice. Die-hard fans made up their minds a lot time ago. They find power and passion, wit and wisdom, where they find it. So circular logic is the best you can hope for.
Can we state our opinions and give voice to our loyalties, sure. But they only feel real.
Personally, I don't know why people bother posing this question to jms in the first place. He's never expressed any real interest in writing Trek. And as stated at the top of the thread, it'd be a freelancing gig which he hasn't done for aeons. On top of that, people can't seem to mention B5 and Trek in the same breath without making sparks.
I just don't see much point to dusting off this question every so often. To watch the sparks fly?
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Joe Medina (neargrai@aol.com)
"...that which are, we are"
I think I hold jms in some regard too. And yes, he has said negative things about Trek.
The problem is this:
Even you could prove or disprove the merits of those statements, hardly anyone is going to notice. Die-hard fans made up their minds a lot time ago. They find power and passion, wit and wisdom, where they find it. So circular logic is the best you can hope for.
Can we state our opinions and give voice to our loyalties, sure. But they only feel real.
Personally, I don't know why people bother posing this question to jms in the first place. He's never expressed any real interest in writing Trek. And as stated at the top of the thread, it'd be a freelancing gig which he hasn't done for aeons. On top of that, people can't seem to mention B5 and Trek in the same breath without making sparks.
I just don't see much point to dusting off this question every so often. To watch the sparks fly?
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Joe Medina (neargrai@aol.com)
"...that which are, we are"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Personally, I don't know why people bother posing this question to jms in the first place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, perhaps most of the people asking this sort of question are hoping JMS will say something foolish that can be used as fuel for flame Wars.
Others may just be ignorant of the "behind the scenes" facts and hope to see a good Trek episode.
And, of course, there is always that old favorite: Stupidity. or Bad Drugs.
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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
Well, perhaps most of the people asking this sort of question are hoping JMS will say something foolish that can be used as fuel for flame Wars.
Others may just be ignorant of the "behind the scenes" facts and hope to see a good Trek episode.
And, of course, there is always that old favorite: Stupidity. or Bad Drugs.
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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
