JMS: The man and the legend

[2aMageing]

I have been reading some of the 'non speculation' over in the No speculation thread in B5 world about JMS and his rather confrontational reactions over time. It's worth discussing how we as ardent fans of his work may tend to elevate him to an unrealistic level of purity, decency, and all around perfectly enlightened persona.

I would dare to suggest that JMS is very much like any individual who has done great, landmark, or just plain high quality breakthrough work. These people are often unique thinkers, often bold, and like everyone else possessing strengths and weaknesses of character.

Actually it seems like frequenly the above average accomplishments come from someone of above average eccentricities. If their gift happens to be the written word then perhaps they may be able to tone down their own uniqueness through carefully chosen communication.

I have read that Einstein was a very poor family man and perhaps even somewhat sexist and hard on the women in his life. Great paintes, poets, scientists, and philosophers have become almost stereotyped by a frequent weakness in their interpersonal capabilities. With great strengths and skills there must also come great weaknesses and inabilities. Balance and change may be the only two constants of this existance.

As fans we tend to glow to great extremes about the material the people who brought it into existance. But it seems like we sometimes assume more than we have evidence to base the judgements upon. But than again maybe I'm way off here and there really are near perfect people running around cranking out great Science Fiction.

Note: JMS is a great writer, it shows in multiple series, and I wish to take NOTHING away from that. But Homeruns and Hugo winning tv shows don't speak to the character of a person. I won a Starfox jacket for my skill in the US based competition for that Nintendo game. It does not mean I'm the most skilled ladies man alive.......although it could still be true despite the lack of evidence........

 

[Fas]

He's a very talented writer, overrated by some, underrated by many- as none of his shows have had much success or become "hit shows". I don't know anyone that watches Babylon 5 or Jeremiah in real life. But he's also just a guy. I don't take the values of his shows as the gospel, and as smart and rational as he comes off in the newslists, he isn't always right.

 

[GKarsEye]

To be fair, I don't recall seeing anyone around here pile heaping mounds of praise on him as a person. His writing, yes, but that is a judgement and appreciation of his work.

I don't know anything about him outside of that and I don't care. I don't see it discussed anywhere. I do seem to recall reading encounters with him during cons and on-line and nothing stood out as particularly wonderful or terrible.

I also don't see the point of considering his personal life. That's his business and anyone who cares about it is nosy. Same goes for any real celebrity. Why anyone gives a shit as to George Clooney is dating is beyond me.

The point: it doesn't freakin' matter.

 

[wolfranger]

I'm with you. I look at JMS as a man with a talent I enjoy very much, I do not feel I need to know anything else.

 

[Flounder]

I really respect his writing and his industry knowledge.
What I really admire is his respect for the audience, and his ability to resist using that lead pipe to bust in our heads.

When it comes to his political opinions, I may not allways agree but I still respect them. Again, he's not using the lead pipe.

 

[RW7427]

He is afterall The Great Maker.

 

[2aMageing]

To be fair, I don't recall seeing anyone around here pile heaping mounds of praise on him as a person. His writing, yes, but that is a judgement and appreciation of his work.

I don't know anything about him outside of that and I don't care. I don't see it discussed anywhere. I do seem to recall reading encounters with him during cons and on-line and nothing stood out as particularly wonderful or terrible.

I should really qualify my topic to the time period when JMS was more of a hot topic, back when B5 was wrapping up, Crusade was getting hosed, and Jeremiah was just warming up. When he was front stage he was reguarded as "the great maker" by many and probably still is in some circles.

But this discussion is pertinent to any major figure who has developed a phenomenal concept. If Gene Roddenberry were still alive and kicking stuff out he would almost certainly be praised to excess in whatever he was doing, at least by a certain dedicated fandom.

Maybe it's just me ("It's just you.....") but it seems like Science Fiction fans are as likely as anyone to make a religion out of a concept's creator and his/her work. When Azimov was kickin it there were legion who had his back no matter the topic of discussion.

If sci fi is not to a persons liking than consider the Mark Mcguire fandom that arose during his HR run. Find me 10 people during his height of popularity that were big fans, but didn't also "feel" that he was probably an all around great guy as well as a powerful baseball hitter. JMS may have been a dated example but certainly a bit more fun considering the source that originated this board and the concept that origianlly drew so many here.

Dare I count how many times the letters JMS come up in the top 5 threads in B5 world. I dare not......I don't have that kind of time. But it'd be alot....I think, maybe.....probably very possibly.....

 

[Endymion]

"... he was a good, kind man"
"You came all this way to say only that??"
"You came just as far to say less"

... and so it begins.

 

[2aMageing]

"... he was a good, kind man"
"You came all this way to say only that??"
"You came just as far to say less"

... and so it begins.

Hey. That's not a bad idea. We should get a panel of completely impartial (wink wink) people together to judge his place in history. I think we can find some sci fi haters out there can't we???

 

[Jan]

I would dare to suggest that JMS is very much like any individual who has done great, landmark, or just plain high quality breakthrough work. These people are often unique thinkers, often bold, and like everyone else possessing strengths and weaknesses of character.

To the contrary, JMS is very much like any individual. Period. Full stop. He generally insists on not being held to any different standard than anybody else and, from what I've seen over the years, treats people the way they treat him.

I find your 'poll' somewhat distasteful, I'm afraid.

Jan

 

[Mike G]

To me, he seems like a good guy. Does it matter to me? Well, only a little. The quality of his writing is really the more important thing to be. His personality comes second.

 

[2aMageing]

I would dare to suggest that JMS is very much like any individual who has done great, landmark, or just plain high quality breakthrough work. These people are often unique thinkers, often bold, and like everyone else possessing strengths and weaknesses of character.

To the contrary, JMS is very much like any individual. Period. Full stop. He generally insists on not being held to any different standard than anybody else and, from what I've seen over the years, treats people the way they treat him.

I find your 'poll' somewhat distasteful, I'm afraid.

Jan

My appologies. I made a devicive example out of someone you seem to sincerely revere. Quite inexcusable on my part.

GkarsEye.....why don't you apply the flogging..... :devil: ...for my attack upon a beloved member of the B5 community..................................... .

 

[GKarsEye]

No, I just think you're missing the point. Maybe the person who thought the poll was "distasteful" wasn't offended because his "hero" JMS was attacked, but would feel that way if anybody, no matter who, had a similar poll. Which is the whole point- no one's asking JMS to be treated with any special reverance, which seems to be your impression.

As for the "great maker" monicker, that is just a nod to the fact that he created and is the core creative force for the Babylon 5 universe.

Look, here's where I come from: the art form that moves me and effects me most profoundly is jazz music. I half-jokingly call my musical heros "gods." But none of them were moral examples by far. Most were junkies. Many were abusers of women and poor fathers. These weren't people I'd want in my life, but I can't imagine my life without their work.

So I've learned a long time ago not to care much about anybody's life but my own and my loved ones.

 

[Sindatur]

Very well stated Old Mighty.

 

[2aMageing]

You seem fairly serious about this topic my friend so I'll be serious. The poll was a bit of fluff. I don't see how it harms a single living soul in any meaningful way. As for the topic of JMS and how he is regarded, you seem to feel I am taking a contrary position to what you have stated about personal life being personal and not food for peoples musings. As far as I can tell I have not made any inquires or accusations into or of any one, least of all JMS.

At most all I have endevoured to do is open up a ......... dialogue on how fans of an originator of a popular or "cult" bit of accomplishment. Have I attacked anyone or shown ill will? I am getting the impression you seem to be admionishing me for......something.

Contribute to the poll or don't contribute to the poll. It is of no consequence but as a diversion and for those who wish it, a way of showing their strong feelings or lack there of for JMS. I feel like I am supposed to be getting in a posture for fisticuffs to answer for having challanged someones honor or something.

What do think the intent of this thread is sir? It might help if we determine your expectations before continuing as I am now being answered in macros...granted well analogized macros but none the less I have no greater insight from this most recent post as to what you are saying......is it simply that your sure no one considers JMS (for an EXAMPLE) as more than he really has presented to be...and that this thread is addressing something totally fictious (ie the presence of excessive fandom estimation of a "prime mover")?

Come now ....speak plain of what you see here and help me to understand the percieved item of contention??

 

[Flounder]

I foresaw this thread going straight to a hot and nasty place, but it's getting better now.

I think the "item of contention" here is wether there is some kind of widespread, undeserved, reverence for JMS among the fans. The very existence of the thread seems to say that it is. Most of us seem to disagree.
He hasn't asked to be revered, and he seems to be rather allright.

And you seemed to be rather flippant toward Jan's post. Address the points and the arguments, please. It's all in good fun.

 

[2aMageing]

I'm afraid I was a bit flippant and I rightly appologize for becoming curt. I was however a bit stung by his "distasteful" response to the poll of all things ( the least serious and least meaningful part of my post ) and unfortunately I responded with similar negative sentiment. I was mistaken in my response.

However, I am really baffled though by the people unnamed and slights unspecified that are garnering such a ..... I guess the word is tense response. What is it that has been transgressed that has required multiple people to essentially stand forth and defend.....somthing. I know not what.

The topic was the discussion of what I would catagorize as a sociological concept, JMS was the example, and people are responding with defensiveness rather than with discussion. Very curious. Dare I say fascinating........and more than a little disappointing. This could have been a far more enjoyable thread with the opportunity for people to just simply state how they feel about JMS and series creators in general.

(It's lemonlyman all over again.)

 

[Jan]

I'm afraid I was a bit flippant and I rightly appologize for becoming curt. I was however a bit stung by his "distasteful" response to the poll of all things ( the least serious and least meaningful part of my post ) and unfortunately I responded with similar negative sentiment. I was mistaken in my response.

However, I am really baffled though by the people unnamed and slights unspecified that are garnering such a ..... I guess the word is tense response. What is it that has been transgressed that has required multiple people to essentially stand forth and defend.....somthing. I know not what.

Are you familiar with the controversy swirling around JMS's Amazing Spiderman arc "Sins Remembered"? Suffice to say that 'discussion' of his presumed habits, preferences, foibles and/or eccentricities has become commonplace. Your poll question including "... What he does in the privacy of his own home we may never know....." Seemed rather close to that sort of speculation, hence my 'distasteful' description.

The topic was the discussion of what I would catagorize as a sociological concept, JMS was the example, and people are responding with defensiveness rather than with discussion. Very curious. Dare I say fascinating........and more than a little disappointing. This could have been a far more enjoyable thread with the opportunity for people to just simply state how they feel about JMS and series creators in general.

Each creator is an individual. Your original post seemed to posit that fans put the subject of their admiration on a pedestal undeservedly and now you seem disappointed when the response is, 'what pedestal, he's just a guy like all the rest of us'.

If JMS hadn't been online all this time talking and joking and arguing with us, maybe it'd be different. Because he has, though, perhaps there's less of a tendency to view him through rose-colored lenses.

Jan

 

[2aMageing]

Seemed rather close to that sort of speculation, hence my 'distasteful' description.

I don't think there is really enough meat to be chewing on it but let me try to be as clear as possible.

No, I am not up on ANY speculation that has gone on about JMS at all. I don't speculate on peoples private lives. I don't seek out information about their private lives. I am not a regular at JMS.com or what ever his site is.

To quote myself I talked about
"These people are often unique thinkers, often bold, and like everyone else possessing strengths and weaknesses of character."

and

"As fans we tend to glow to great extremes about the material the people who brought it into existance. But it seems like we sometimes assume more than we have evidence to base the judgements upon."

I discuss his character. It is highly pertainant since it comes into very real play when and how he interacts with his show's fans. I find it ABSOLUTELY AMAZING that after 6 paragraphs of talking of fan perception of creator's character vs the realities of their character that some people seem to have ceased upon a single line in the 4th question of a poll following 6 paragraphs and prior poll choices like....... "GOD!!!!! If someone asks if he's a god you say YES"
"An ego maniacal award winning writer who THINKS he's god. Might as well go for the really satisfying ones."
"man taken for all in all, I shall not look upon his like again"

and followed by

"nom de plume for Judy Blume. Who'd have thunk it....."

Nevermind that I discuss his personal life ONCE, in passing, on the third choice of a poll with options like these......did anyone bother to take a WIT of time to notice the pattern of the poll.........

Option 1: extreme option, followed by a movie quote for added humor
Option 2: ANOTHER extreme option, followed by a B5 quote for added humor............
Option 3: Shakespear, an option there for the more serious of the poll takers, within reason .
Option 4: Another serious option for the serious participants, followed by a second statement, placed there for what......say it with me.......HUMOR.
Option 5: All humor.

One phrase, as an addendum to one line, on a poll that is obviously largely ment for levity, with a couple outs for those who really want the poll to speak for them.

Suddenyly dropping the line that you find my poll distasteful, without elaboration or grounds, was a very plain disparagement cast upon me as the author of the poll. And I was quite honestly shocked and insulted. I usually don't care to carry on with such farce but when you paint me as a gossip monger of JMS's personal life from one line that you, sir, took quite simply out of context, I must make clear that it was slanderous in implication.

As far as my being

disappointed when the response is, 'what pedestal, he's just a guy like all the rest of us'

you seek to paint me inaccurately again and is beginning to feel like ill intent now. You are not discussing the topic sir, you are applying me as your topic. Who is trying to make it personal and who, based on the facts, the posts, is trying to discuss the topic?

Let me see. My post is followed by Fas, "But he's also just a guy. I don't take the values of his shows as the gospel, and as smart and rational as he comes off in the newslists, he isn't always right. ".

Followed by no response from me either negative or positive....it was exactly the expression of personal opinion I would have loved for this thread to centered on........

GKE then proceeds to post with a general tone of reprimand as said like "To be fair, I don't recall seeing anyone around here pile heaping mounds of praise on him as a person" ... to be fair, quite reasonbly implying that some is "unfairly" stating something.....ok he has a concern about the accuracy of my hypothesis I suppose.......that's fine and practical.

and then "I also don't see the point of considering his personal life" which as far as I can read has not been discussed yet in this thread with any length, detail, or effort. Now people are attributing things that have no substance in fact.....I am somewhat disturbed...especially coming from a regular to the board I have held in fairly high esteem for well supported , fiery points, often very similar to my own takes on things.

I now post my FIRST response, to GKE, not because of the dissenting opinion, but because he seems to be expressing the view not that I am mistaken, but rather that I should not have even opened up a dialogue on the topic of fan overestimation.

By my count Flounder, Mike G, wolfranger, and fas all supplied their own take. And enjoyed hearing from them. I have avoided responding to any posts in the hopes that a free airing of views ON TOPIC and not people placing the topic might take place.

I have ONLY responded to GKE on comments such as
'I also don't see the point of considering his personal life'
and Jan regarding comments such as
'I find your 'poll' somewhat distasteful, I'm afraid.'

I welcomed all the other statements and personal opinions. And I did not need GKE to tell me what RW ment with his very amusing tounge-in-cheek 'great maker'. The was a welocome bit of humor along with the welcome bit of big-picture insight provided by Endymion's clever B5 quoting.

'and now you seem disappointed when the response is, 'what pedestal, he's just a guy like all the rest of us'. '

No Jan. I'm disappointed that GKE and you are in "you should be ashamed of yourself" mode while most everyone else seems to have taken this thread in the positive spirit it was intended, as an exploration. If people limited their commentary to useful concepts like

'If JMS hadn't been online all this time talking and joking and arguing with us, maybe it'd be different. Because he has, though, perhaps there's less of a tendency to view him through rose-colored lenses.'

and refrained from acting as judge and jury, especially absent any real evidence of wrong doing, I think this thread might still be able to provide some people an opportunity for humor and expression about a concept.

Could we please dispense with the sniping and backhanded misplaced disapproval? Can we possibly act just a bit more mature than we are?
PLEASE.

 

[Jan]

Could we please dispense with the sniping and backhanded misplaced disapproval? Can we possibly act just a bit more mature than we are?
PLEASE.

We seem to not be communicating. You wondered why I reacted the way I did and I illustrated it, explaining my reaction to what was posted. There was no attack in anything there.

I can't 'paint' you inaccurately. The posts in this thread are, to the best of my knowledge, the only ones I've ever read of yours so I don't have any picture of you or your style whatsoever.

As I said, we're obviously not communicating so let's just assume that neither of us meant any harm or discourtesy and drop the matter.

Jan