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Just Posted This Over At "rec.arts.sf.tv" ....

Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

The original Crusade uniforms were the Gray & Red ones. We had five episodes of these. After TNT Atlanta sees the Avid stuff (which, IIRC, didn't have the CGI, and Joe D can get into), they ordered a production halt, and started meddling. One of the changes was in the uniforms. So, Crusade got the spiffy black uniforms, and they made eight more episodes. Episode 14, the next one to be shot was To the Ends of the Earth, and in it Gideon would have made sure that there was a laundry accident, and the Gray & Red uniforms would have been destroyed.

So, the idea was to:
<ul type="square">[*] start out showing some Black Uniform episodes,
[*] show Appearances and Other Deceits, which shows the meddling of Mr. Welles and Kevin, and the transition from Black Uniforms to Gray & Red Uniforms,
[*] then we show a few Gray & Red Uniform episodes, and
[*] then have To the Ends of the Earth, the laundry accident, and the switch back to Black Uniforms (which everybody likes better).
[/list]

Confused yet? /ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif


Here is my best guess at a good viewing order (if we were going to try to maintain "Uniform" continuity).


1. War Zone (Black Uniforms).

2. Ruling from the Tomb (Black Uniforms), Gideon & Lochley's FIRST Meeting.
Comes before Each Night and before Rules. Seems like Ruling should be
fairly early in the order. Date shown is 6/15/2267.

3. The Long Road (Black Uniforms). Could go in either the first or second
black uniform group, but feels early.

4. The Well of Forever (Black Uniforms). Could go in either the first or
second black uniform group, but feels early. Should probably come before
Path (which follows up on the Galen/Isabelle thread).

5. The Path of Sorrows (Black Uniforms). Must come before To The Ends...

6. Appearances and Other Deceits (The transition from Black Uniforms to Grey
Uniforms).

7. Racing the Night (Grey Uniforms)

8. The Needs of Earth (Grey Uniforms). Could separate the Galen episodes of
Racing and Memory.

9. The Memory of War (Grey Uniforms)

10. Visitors from Down the Street (Grey Uniforms). This is the main glitch
with this order because of the 5/13/2267 date shown (so it should come
before Ruling). I know of no way to resolve this and maintain your:
"I initially figured we'd do 5-6 of the 'new look' ones first, the minimum
possible, then the first 5, then the new-look (black uniform) ones to the
end."

from The Lurker's Guide (Appearances and Other Deceits guidepage). To put
Visitors before Ruling, would put Ruling in the second black uniform group,
and then that messes up Ruling coming before Each Night. I'd just ignore
the glitch, or change the month of the date in Visitors (if economically
feasible). Maybe 10/13...?

11. Each Night I Dream of Home (Grey Uniforms). After Ruling. After Memory.
Probably before Patterns. The continuing Gideon/Lochley warm-up.

12. To the Ends of the Earth (Unfilmed, Transition from Grey to Black
Uniforms - The Laundry Accident Episode)

13. Patterns of the Soul (Black Uniforms). After Memory, so it must come in
the second black uniform group, and therefore must come after To The Ends.

14. The Rules of the Game (Black Uniforms). After Each Night. The apex of
the Gideon/Lochley warm-up.


22. End of the Line (Unfilmed, Black Uniforms)

??. Value Judgements (Unfilmed, Black Uniforms). Could go either in the
first or second black uniform group.
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

So "War Zone" was filmed after some other eps even though it was the first in the story line?
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

There's an episode called 'War Zone?' j/k /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif.

Seriously though, TNT wanted a new beginning episode to spell out to the viewers how they all got together on the good ship Excalibur. You'll notice that there are two explanations as to why Max is on board.
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

Two? I only know of the War Zone explanation.

PS: Sorry about bringing up these painful memeories.
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

TNT Order:
War Zone, 06/09/1999
The Long Road, 06/16/1999
The Well of Forever, 06/23/1999
The Path of Sorrows, 06/30/1999
Patterns of the Soul, 07/07/1999
Ruling from the Tomb, 07/14/1999
The Rules of the Game, 07/21/1999
Appearances and Other Deceits, 07/28/1999
Racing the Night, 08/04/1999
The Memory of War, 08/11/1999
The Needs of Earth, 08/18/1999
Visitors from Down the Street, 08/25/1999
Each Night I Dream of Home, 09/01/1999

Sci-Fi/JMS Revised Order:
Racing the Night
The Needs of Earth
The Memory of War
The Long Road
Visitors from Down the Street
The Well of Forever
Each Night I Dream of Home
Patterns of the Soul
The Path of Sorrows
Ruling from the Tomb
The Rules of the Game
War Zone
Appearances and Other Deceits

Production Order:
101 The Needs of Earth
102 The Memory of War
103 Racing the Night
104 Visitors from Down the Street
105 Each Night I Dream of Home

The first production shutdown.

106 The Well of Forever
107 The Long Road
<font color=red>108 War Zone</font color=red>
109 The Path of Sorrows
110 Patterns of the Soul
111 Ruling from the Tomb
112 The Rules of the Game
113 Appearances and Other Deceits
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

In one episode Gideon walks up to Max at a dig and says something along the lines of 'When we asked IPX to send us their best archeaologist...' whereas in 'War Zone,' the Drakh ship crashes on the planet Max is working on.

I could be a little wrong though - I've only seen Crusade once and that was about 2 years ago.
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

I think the question one was the first one in the JMS order.
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

There wasn't a second explanation for Max. It was just left FUBAR.

I hate to lose War Zone, if only for Max's dialogue.

Racing the Night sort of introduces Max on the fly. Initially, there's friction between the crew (especially Chambers) and Max, but as time goes on the crew warms to Max and vice-versa.

War Zone has that awkward bit of exposition at the end between Gideon and Matheson regarding keeping Max. If Racing the Night is seen first, that part of War Zone looks ridiculous. War Zone should never have existed, and if it hadn't, we'd have gotten To the Ends of the Earth.

<font color=red>Damn TNT-Atlanta. Damn them to hell.</font color=red> /ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

Wasn't To the Ends of the Earth supposed to be the ep where Crusade REALLY got interesting?
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Wasn't To the Ends of the Earth supposed to be the ep where Crusade REALLY got interesting? <hr></blockquote>

Yes, and that's where the first hint of where Crusade was really going, was going to revealed.

In it's place, we got War Zone. Say Thanks TNT! /ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

Why was JMS was pressured into War Zone?

Well, first TNT was going to air A Call to Arms right before Racing the Night (which was always supposed to be the first Crusade episode).

Then, they changed their "minds" (I use that word loosely, verrry loosely.). So, they decided that an "Intro." episode (War Zone) was needed because A Call to Arms wouldn't be aired before Racing the Night.

Then they shuffled the airing order, and put War Zone 1st, and Racing the Night, 9th. They also had some dialogue looped to minimize continuity problems caused by the new order.

Then, they decided to air A Call to Arms <font color=red>after</font color=red> War Zone. As JMS has said "This makes no kind of sense."
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.jmsnews.com/scripts/MsgStore.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetMsg&List=1&Topic=7&Flags=1&Query=no%20kind%20of%20sense&QFlags=1&ls=1&qs=1&qt=0>JMS Article 1</a>

Then, throw into this whole mess, the "Uniform" issue.

Then, throw into this whole mess, the fact that TNT didn't want to complete post production on the first five episodes filmed (the pre-interference Gray & Red Uniform episodes). They never wanted these episodes to see the light of day.

Then add to this the fact that they try to CYA by calling it a "Limited Series."
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

Dang! They really screwed it up! Crusade could have gone so far if TNT didn't get their hands on it. Who else did JMS go to with Crusade?
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

See also:

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.jmsnews.com/scripts/MsgStore.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetMsg&List=1&Topic=6&Flags=1&Query=no%20kind%20of%20sense&QFlags=1&ls=1&qs=1&qt=0>JMS Article 2</a>

and

Crusade - Emperor Theodore and Lady Jane

Q: "I'd like to know how many episodes are sold and what plans you
have..."
JMS: "For?"
Q: "Crusade."
JMS: "Thank you. It's a very long story. There's stuff I can
say, and there's stuff that I can't say. So, I'll tell you what I can
say and lie about what I can't say. "We shot 13 episodes. And TNT will
be airing those on June 9 at 10:00, starting then and going straight
through, more or less.
And we had... they had said they weren't going to do more beyond
that, beyond the 13. We tried at that point to take it to the SciFi
Channel, but it was so late in the game.... It takes a lot of money to
be able to support an entire season of a show. The SciFi Channel had
already allocated their funds for the year, so they couldn't pick it up.
If the show does well, the first 13, then it will be considered
for a season, beginning with the second season, on the SciFi Channel. If
the show does well, it will go on. "As for more what happened...
Let me tell you a fairy tale. And every fairy tale begins with
Once Upon A Time...
"...There was a writer of songs in a kingdom. And he wasn't the
best writer of songs on the entire planet. There were others who were as
good or better. And he had written 110 really good songs... and four or
five long odes.
And they said, 'Do some more songs for us.'
And he said, 'Sure.'
And he began writing more songs. And those were for this little
kingdom which was great. As were the ministers, who had always before
worked with him.
"Then the King heard about the new songs that were being
commissioned. Not the Emperor. Not the Emperor Theodore and his wife
Lady Jane. I ain't talking about them. I'm talking about the lower king
of a particular land, all right. I don't want the Emperor getting pissed
at me.
And he (the King) said, 'Well, I should be involved creatively.'
"And thus there came... runners would come with scrolls, which the
singer/songwriter would look at and burn.
"Now this is just a fairy tale. Okay? This is nothing but a
fairy tale. This is not about Crusade. Okay? I'm just telling you a
story here.
"And the King became wroth. He waxed Wroth, and Wroth wasn't
very happy about it. Old joke, I'm sorry.
"So they called for a grand meeting at which, along one long
table were ministers, and emissaries, and ambassadors, and functionaries
and assistants, and programming-uh,...a whole lot of guys. Now on the
other side of the table was the writer of songs. And they had plenty of
these huge scrolls in front of them. And they began to open the first
one.
"And the writer of songs said, 'no.'
"And they brought someone in with a book to explain to them what
the word 'no meant, because they had never heard it before. And they
said, 'no to what?'
"I said... The writer of songs said, in this imaginary story,
'no to all of it. No to all of it in all its parts and pieces, from page
1 to page 20. No to all of it.' The writer of songs felt that what they
wanted was, in modern terms, for a moment, sort of Baywatch meets
wrestling in space. Which was not applicable, exactly, to our fairy tale
scenario. (aside: If I every work again, it'll be a miracle)
"It became clear that if the King's emissaries were not properly
responded to, that they may say, 'you can only write 13 songs.' And the
writer of songs said, 'better 13 songs that I can believe in than 22
that I do not.
"So there were 13 songs, and the writer of songs has moved to a
different kingdom knowing that the 13 songs were songs that he wanted to
hear. And in the 13th song there was a sub-thread in the song about
people who come in with suggestions, which is rather similar to the
King's situation. Astonishingly, the King saw the 13th song and didn't
realize what it was.
"And the writer of songs moved to another kingdom and lived
happily ever after.
"And this has nothing to do with Crusade or your question, but I
thought I'd tell you that story because it amuses me."
------------------
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Who else did JMS go to with Crusade? <hr></blockquote>

Sci-Fi, and I don't know who else. However, TNT asked a ridiculous price, so that nobody would go for it. Joe D can give you better details on this than I can. Suffice it to say that TNT tried to kill Crusade every way it could. /ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

I'd like to see 50,000 Narn with bats pay 'em a visit. <font color=red> [FIREdevil emoticon] </font color=red>
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

Ugh, can someone (or KoshN) edit those posts with the super long URLs so they use the [ url ] tag? It makes it almost impossible to read this thread otherwise ...
 
Re: Just Posted This Over At \"rec.arts.sf.tv\" ....

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Ugh, can someone (or KoshN) edit those posts with the super long URLs so they use the [ url ] tag? It makes it almost impossible to read this thread otherwise ... <hr></blockquote>

What? Doesn't it wrap for you? If you click on it, doesn't it still work?


It used to be easier when we had the buttons, and it'd just ask you for a title. Now that I have to type the syntax out manually, I'm not sure how add the title info. I'll give it a shot.
 

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