Just watched B5: In the Beginning (Spoilers)

[Darkshowers]

This is my first post and I hope I'm posting this in the right forum. I'm a long time fan of Babylon 5 as I first watched it over ten years ago but never got to see every episode or movie back than. Now I can thanks to Netflix.

I just watched the B5 movie, In the Beginning and it really got me thinking so I had to find fellow B5 fans to discuss this with. First off, if I was a human alive at the point right after the Earth-Minbari War, I would be really angry and bitter at the Minbari race forever even though the humans started the war due to a "loose cannon." If the Minbari surrendered, I would demand billions of dollars or whatever currency is used in reparations. I would consider bringing a ton of nukes to their homeworld and blowing the entire thing up (a Sheridan tactic). Of course, that would probably be dumb because if you risk starting another war, the humans might really be wiped out and I doubt anyone knew about the Minbari's revelation that Sinclair had a Minbari soul inside him or that Minbari cannot kill Minbari.

I guess I just never thought about the grand scale of the war and I didn't realize it went on as long as it did, but I can see why many of those who lived on Earth would not trust Sheridan for becoming too intimate with aliens and taking on an alien wife. My general impression of MInbari have come from Delenn and Lennier who are generally very peaceful and reasonable so this movie showed me another side of this race.

What happened to Sheridan and Franklin after they were captured? Were they stuck in a cell for 2 years? I really believe that if Sheridan was not captured and went back to Earth and if they gave him the responsibility of finding a way to beat the Minbari, that he would have been their best chance of beating the Minbari (given that he had their only victory). Although I can't believe that he is the only military leader capable of coming up with brilliant strategies and tactics.

I will say I really did enjoy this movie. It was done well but I do think that something as huge as a Earth Minbari War deserves an entire season rather than a short movie and I find it hard to believe that Kosh, Delenn and no one could do anything to stop the war or find a better solution.

Discuss.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

What happened to Sheridan and Franklin after they were captured? Were they stuck in a cell for 2 years?

Hello and welcome to the forum!

As I remember they were released right after they were brought before Delenn.Sheridan repeated the phrase he had heard from Lenonn("Entil'Zha"-The Future) and Delenn ordered the guards to let them go.I can't remember whether she had already spoken to Kosh about the humans or not.

 

[vacantlook]

...I can't remember whether she had already spoken to Kosh about the humans or not.

If my memory serves, she had spoken with them at least once by that point.

And welcome to the B5tv forums, Darkshowers. You posted your thread in just the right forum! Feel free to also check out lots of episode-specific discussion threads, the links to which are collected here in the Episode Discussion (EpDis) Thread Index.

 

[KoshFan]

First off, if I was a human alive at the point right after the Earth-Minbari War, I would be really angry and bitter at the Minbari race forever even though the humans started the war due to a "loose cannon."

Most Humans we see in the show feel exactly that way. It's just that our heroes spend a lot of time with Delenn and Lennier. So you're hardly alone! It is indeed a natural feeling, and why Delenn was always so careful to not let her involvement in the war leak out.

I really believe that if Sheridan was not captured and went back to Earth and if they gave him the responsibility of finding a way to beat the Minbari, that he would have been their best chance of beating the Minbari (given that he had their only victory). Although I can't believe that he is the only military leader capable of coming up with brilliant strategies and tactics.

Remember why they sent him on the mission? He'd beaten the Minbari once, he could do so again. (At least so ran the theory. Hand-to-hand is a whole different story.) I'm guessing it's as close to negotiating from a position of strength as the Humans could get at that point. And the Humans really were grasping at straws. A lot of high command in EarthForce probably felt the peacemaking mission was their best hope.

I find it hard to believe that Kosh, Delenn and no one could do anything to stop the war or find a better solution.

Delenn was trying, after her initial scream of rage, but as we know, getting the Warrior caste to stop fighting is no easy task.

As for Kosh, he'd probably had the whole story from Valen, back in the day, and knew he didn't need to step in; it would all work out just fine.

Welcome; good first topic!

 

[Telepath]

Although most B5 fans like it, I've had some problems with ItB from the start, for some of the reasons touched here. I think that the humans would have sent as inoffensive a negotiator as possible to end the war, not the only one who was sure to offend the Minbari (as he did later, when he was sent to command B5). Plus, Kosh should not have been there, neither should Ulkesh. I doubt that they did not know of the Minbari's findings concerning Sinclair / Valen, and if they did, the Vorlons would not have threatened to destroy B5 when Kosh was poisoned (The Gathering). That's a case of retroactive inconsistency ;-)

 

[KoshFan]

Well, why would Valen have told them about that little incident? After all, it turned out just fine, no need for them to know.

 

[Galahad]

Although most B5 fans like it, I've had some problems with ItB from the start, for some of the reasons touched here. I think that the humans would have sent as inoffensive a negotiator as possible to end the war, not the only one who was sure to offend the Minbari (as he did later, when he was sent to command B5)

You are assuming the humans were acting on their own there. A couple of things worth noting, are that prior to interception by the Prometheus, Dukhat was headed for Z'Ha'Dum to investigate whether or not the Shadows were awakening. The other thing is whose cause benefits most from having an eejut like Jankowski head up first contact.

I think if you take these two factors into account... you can easily read between the lines and imply that the Shadows (or there allies), were manipulating events to ensure that their activity went undiscovered... and that their philosophy of growth through chaos was being enacted between Humanity and the Minbari.

Plus, Kosh should not have been there, neither should Ulkesh. I doubt that they did not know of the Minbari's findings concerning Sinclair / Valen, and if they did, the Vorlons would not have threatened to destroy B5 when Kosh was poisoned (The Gathering). That's a case of retroactive inconsistency ;-)

and

Well, why would Valen have told them about that little incident? After all, it turned out just fine, no need for them to know.

You have to remember that Kosh met Sinclair/Valen after all these events had taken place relative to Sinclair. If Sinclair's was the mind from the past who had been touched similar to Sheridan... then Kosh would have had access to Sinclair's memories. The vorlons would not seek to jeapordize these events because a) it clashes with their philosophy of "order above all" and b) the events that led to Sinclair travelling back (including the Minbari War) ended in a scenario that was more favourable to the Vorlons (the Shadows would turn out not to be as strong in number).

The most amazing concept in this theory is that it means that through Sinclair's knowledge of events, Kosh would also know he was destined to die... and yet he still chose to go through with it

 

[Darkshowers]

Remember why they sent him on the mission? He'd beaten the Minbari once, he could do so again. (At least so ran the theory. Hand-to-hand is a whole different story.) I'm guessing it's as close to negotiating from a position of strength as the Humans could get at that point. And the Humans really were grasping at straws. A lot of high command in EarthForce probably felt the peacemaking mission was their best hope.

I understand a peacemaking mission was their best hope but when that failed, Sheridan was sent back to Earth and you don't hear a peep from him ever again until the war ended 2 years later?? I find that hard to believe. I mean you have the one commander who was able to find a way to beat the Minbari and he isn't put in a position to try to find other ways to beat them?? Was it just because he failed the peacemaking mission which wasn't really his fault either?

Delenn was trying, after her initial scream of rage, but as we know, getting the Warrior caste to stop fighting is no easy task.

As for Kosh, he'd probably had the whole story from Valen, back in the day, and knew he didn't need to step in; it would all work out just fine.

Welcome; good first topic!

Your point about Kosh is a good one. As for Delenn, I really expected her to do more but perhaps she was just too inexperienced.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

I understand a peacemaking mission was their best hope but when that failed, Sheridan was sent back to Earth and you don't hear a peep from him ever again until the war ended 2 years later?? I find that hard to believe. I mean you have the one commander who was able to find a way to beat the Minbari and he isn't put in a position to try to find other ways to beat them?? Was it just because he failed the peacemaking mission which wasn't really his fault either?

Remember Earth lost this war.

According to JMS Sheridan was sent on morale raising tours. This is the sort of thing that resting actresses can do better - Sheridan would look horrible in a mini-skirt.

If Earth wanted to win they needed to get Sheridan to lead men into battle or possible perform the strategic planning.

 

[GKarsEye]

Welcome to the forum.

When I do my next B5 viewing, I plan on starting w/ ItB. I've not yet done that.

Galahad, I take issue w/ two of your points:

1. That the Shadows manipulated the Earth-Minbari war. I think fans are all too eager to blame everything on the Vorlons and Shadows. Remember that those races don't create order and chaos, those are natural- they just use it to their advantage, exaggerate it, etc. Earth Force was arrogant and naive about dealing w/ aliens at the time- and then war happens. It's how empires and nations work.

2. That Valen told Kosh when he was going to die. I would think he wouldn't want to reveal anything like that for fear of screwing up the timeline (time-circle?)

 

[KoshFan]

It's also possible (although admittedly unlikely) that Sinclair didn't even know Kosh was dead. They were keeping it quiet, remember?

I forget the chronology of ItB. Is there really a two-year gap between Sheridan's close encounter with Delenn and the Battle of the Line?

Actually the whole Minbari War chronology bothered me a bit... considering how fast the Minbari go through our ships, how in space did we hold them off for years?

 

[vacantlook]

I forget the chronology of ItB. Is there really a two-year gap between Sheridan's close encounter with Delenn and the Battle of the Line?

If I remember correctly, Londo says in his narration during the war montage that "they did this for two years".

EDIT: I just pulled up the quote off of the Downbelow Sound Archive. Londo says,

"The Humans, I think, knew they were doomed. But where another race would surrender to despair, the Humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari for every inch of space. In my life, I have never seen anything like it. They would weep. They would pray. They would say good bye to their love ones and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself. Never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable, could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. When they ran out of ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns, they used knives and sticks and bare hands. They were magnificent! I only hope, when it is my time, that I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end. They did this for two years. They never ran out of courage. But in the end, they ran out of time."

 

[Telepath]

Well, why would Valen have told them about that little incident?

I rather think that the Minbari would have reported their findings concerning Valen's soul to Kosh and Ulkesh. And even if Kosh knew what was coming and chose not to interfere, Ulkesh certainly didn't, and he would have been highly likely to report the finding of Valen's soul. Otherwise, the Vorlons would certainly want to find out why the Minbari stopped the war - and remembering the cooperation between Minbari, Valen and Vorlons in the last shadow war, the Minbari would / should have told them.

 

[GKarsEye]

If I remember correctly, Londo says in his narration during the war montage that "they did this for two years".

EDIT: I just pulled up the quote off of the Downbelow Sound Archive. Londo says,

"The Humans, I think, knew they were doomed. But where another race would surrender to despair, the Humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari for every inch of space. In my life, I have never seen anything like it. They would weep. They would pray. They would say good bye to their love ones and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself. Never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable, could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. When they ran out of ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns, they used knives and sticks and bare hands. They were magnificent! I only hope, when it is my time, that I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end. They did this for two years. They never ran out of courage. But in the end, they ran out of time."

I know this is lame, but as an avid boxing enthusiast, I can appreciate how much pure will power and grit can determine the outcome of a fight. The battle of Thermopylae (sp?) is a famous example of a desperately outnumbered force holding off a numerically and technologically superior horde beyond the limits of imagination.

This fits nicely with how the Minbari fear and hate humans after the war. Even though it was an "easy" sorta-win, they see humans as extremely dangerous and destructive. They genuinely fear them.

 

[KoshFan]

Yeah, but remember "the Gathering"? When Kosh first lays eyes on Sinclair (faux Sinclair, but still), that's when he finally makes the connection to Valen. It's supposed to be surprising.

Although come to think of it, you'd think a telepath like Kosh would have known the difference.

 

[Telepath]

You'd think that the Minbari would have consulted the Vorlons when they found out about Sinclair's soul at the Battle of the Line. That's my problem with them being there. One of them even says "Truth points to itself", which is ominous, as we expect from our Vorlons, but suggests that they know what will happen when Delenn chooses.

 

[KoshFan]

Hmmm... but only Delenn knew the Vorlons were aboard. Would that have made a difference?

 

[Galahad]

They (the vorlons) did know what was coming... the difference is, that Ulkesh lacking in compassion as he was, was content to leave events to unfold without caring for the lives lost. If they were worthy they would find a way... but Kosh had faith in the two races and saw the necessity of stopping them killing each other because he cared for them... that's why he dropped the hint... and that's why Ulkesh floicks him a nasty glance after he does it.

 

[mattikake]

Yeah and that's why Kosh sent the trigger Entilzah Valen to Sinclair in the Gathering to activate his programming, that that he would then do what was needed to become Valen.

 

[KoshFan]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That was no trigger.

According to JMS on the Lurker's Guide:

Why would Kosh tell Sinclair he was Valen?
Internal dialogue...what he was thinking, his reaction.

That "Entil'zha Valen" never left Kosh's mind.