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Kosh's creepy dream sequence

M

MrFlibble

Member
Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

Can someone please explain to me in depth the whole dream thing? It's been bugging me for ages now, i'm with it up until Ivanova asks "do you know who I am?" then it just gets more and more obscure. And while you're doing that, what does Kosh mean by "You have always been here".

Hes one big scary wardrobe that they're Kosh
:eek:
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

Justin, the middle man, is the "the man in between" I assume. Justin is the "what do you want" opposite of Sheridan's "who are you?". The scene with the 2 of them explains it.
I can't remember the build up to the Kosh "always been here" stuff, but I assume its cos of Sheridan carrying Kosh which explains the other Kosh dream "so long as you're here, I'll always be here".
I think...
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

The line "Do you know who I am?" was explained in Divided Loyalties. It was a possible reference to Ivanova, who revealed that she is a latent telepath.

Regards,
Marko Marin
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

I have always thought that "you have always been here" was because "here" was in Sheridan's mind.

Alternately, it's because Kosh felt that Sheridan was destined to be in that place at that time.
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

If you look at the concept of temporal paradox, and given that the Vorlons knew what was coming, knew the events that were unfolding to some extent (at least up through WWE -- and though they did not clearly have the ability to see beyond that (since they were so blown away by Kosh's death) they did know who was in place and was to be key in the events to come. Remember Kosh flat out told him, "If you go to Za'ha'dum, you will die."), and given that they (especially Kosh) were pushing and preparing Sheridan and Delenn for the coming war, then it makes sense that Kosh would say "you have always been here." To a Vorlon, that knew Sheridan would come along because they knew everything that would happen up to the point B4 went back in time, Sheridan would have "always been [there]."

That was a very long way around that, I hope you all understood what I was trying to say. I'm a bit fuzzled and tired at the moment. :D

CE
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

To understand the "I have always been here" and "You have always been here" we have to change from science to the theory of literature.

JMS was making a reference to the book "The Hero with a Thousand Faces". Across the world, in major stories the hero always has a mentor to give him his mission and put him on the right course. Kosh was Sheridan's mentor.

My comment - since not even artists get this reference it did not work.

Ivanova is dressed in black as if for a funeral. Her face is partially hidden, showing she has a secret. She has a crow on her shoulder.

Sheridan is shown dressed as a Psi Cop. Psi Cops lead telepaths. Sheridan not only worked with Psi Cop Bester but lead telepaths into war against the Shadows.

Ivanova said to Sheridan "You are the hand" and "The man in the middle is searching for you".

A second crow is shown. One of the crows was white and the other black. According to one of the books this is a reference to the god Odin. Odin is not a nice god; he often kills his heroes in battle so that they can be brought into Asgard (sp) as a member of his forces.
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

Ivanova is dressed in black as if for a funeral. Her face is partially hidden, showing she has a secret. She has a crow on her shoulder.
Click to expand...

Remember later she tells Sheridan that she's a latent teep. ;)
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

I always referenced Kosh's "you have always been here" to Morden's comment that 'whenever this happens, there is always someone who tries to unite the younger races." In other words, the "you" is plural, not singular, meaning that there has always been a Sheridan-analog when the Shadows start moving.

No evidence for this, just my own feelings.
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

If you look at the concept of temporal paradox, and given that the Vorlons knew what was coming, knew the events that were unfolding to some extent (at least up through WWE -- and though they did not clearly have the ability to see beyond that (since they were so blown away by Kosh's death) they did know who was in place and was to be key in the events to come. Remember Kosh flat out told him, "If you go to Za'ha'dum, you will die."), and given that they (especially Kosh) were pushing and preparing Sheridan and Delenn for the coming war, then it makes sense that Kosh would say "you have always been here." To a Vorlon, that knew Sheridan would come along because they knew everything that would happen up to the point B4 went back in time, Sheridan would have "always been [there]."

That was a very long way around that, I hope you all understood what I was trying to say. I'm a bit fuzzled and tired at the moment. :D

CE
Click to expand...

I think I like this idea of a temporal paradox the best, it reminds me of planet of the apes. So what you're saying is that because of Sinclair going back in time to become Valen and in doing so creating the leaking of minbari souls into humans, has created a time loop that will "always" repeat. So by saying to Sheriden that he has always been here, Kosh means that they have been repeating the same events an infinate amount of time?

I think I'm going to nedd a lie down :rolleyes:
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

It sort of depends... on how one perceives time. One could construct endless theories on the issue... but without ability to verify... the result would be void.

Alternatively, one could admit current lack of proper scientific approaches to this issue, accepting the cute piece of story for what it is -- a cute piece of story.

Sinclair traveled into the past... ended up changing nothing... and finally disappeared. Whether anything would have changed from a decision to avoid traveling back... remains without answer.

Who knows. Even if not logically watertight, the story sure appears interesting.
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

The Guide Page for "All Alone in the Night" at TLG contains a lot of interesting speculation as of the time the episode first aired, as well as what little JMS felt he could say back then. Both the Guide and Synopsis pages for "Shadow Dancing" have many of the actual explanations for the symbols. (Most of which are described right on screen in the latter episode.)

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

ok maybe i'm being a complete arse here but something i've never understood is:
how/when did kosh get into sheridan?

if there is an obvious answer to this then i apologise.
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

ok maybe i'm being a complete arse here but something i've never understood is:
.
how/when did kosh get into sheridan?
Click to expand...

The dying Kosh came to Sheridan in a dream, in the form of Sheridan's father, near the end of "Interludes and Examinations." He apologized (as much as a Vorlon can) for some of the things he said and did. They were still in contact when the Shadows finished Kosh off, and a fragment of him remained within Sheridan. (Discussed explicitly in the Technomage Trilogy, but pretty clear in retrospect from watching the episodes.)

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

But that doesn't explain why Kosh appeared to him in his dreams before that point.
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

You're asking two different questions.

When Kosh appeared in his dream in All Alone in The Night, he was not "In" Sheridan at that time, he was only invading Sheridan's dream.

When Kosh invaded Sheridan's Dream later and was killed while in the dream, that's how Kosh became "In" Sheridan.

Think of Garibaldi waking up to Lyta with the white eyes, saying she was testing her skills, and then Garibaldi waking up again. That was invading Garibaldi's dream, same thing Kosh did in All Alone in the Night. Part of Kosh being in Sheridan was a totally seperate thing.
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

Yes, but why would Kosh appear in Sheridan's dream while on the Strieb ship in the first place is what I'm really asking. Is it that Sheridan was somehow thinking of Kosh or did Kosh know where Sheridan was?
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

But that doesn't explain why Kosh appeared to him in his dreams before that point.
Click to expand...

I was replying to a post by csber3, which didn't ask that question. :)

Kosh, however, did answer it. In a manner of speaking. Kosh had been trying to contact Sheridan (or leaving the door open to such contact) for a long time. Only aboard the Streib ship was Sheridan in a mentally receptive state. (Similarly, G'Kar was high on Dust when Kosh touched his mind. Contact with a Vorlon mind may initially require the receiver to be in some kind of alterted state of conciousness - drugged, stressed out or exhausted.)

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Kosh\'s creepy dream sequence

Maybe Kosh knew that Sheridan would be key to the coming Shadow war and he wanted to "condition" him so to speak. ;)
 
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