Let's speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

The technomage possibility is pretty much excluded, basing on the technomage book trilogy by Jeanne Cavelos:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>Galen and Isabelle were betrayed by their own kind. The Circle sent them into danger... and Elizar chose to work for the Shadows.

It was the Shadows who designed the tech used by technomages, in their quest to create agents of chaos. The mages chose not to obey, fleeing when the new Shadow War started.</td></tr></table>

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 21, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

And please, pretty please, don't whack me like spoo after reading this. I am in an overly enthusiastic mode, and working under the assumption that there are no coincidences in the universe (an assumption which may not work with JMS). I will guess this:

The name Martel is not be a coincidence. For a person slightly familiar with medieval European history, it asscociates a bit too well with troubled times, an invasion and a large battle -- which achieved nothing, only maintaining status quo. Therefore I would guess that:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>The Hand will pose a threat, building up an invasion within the first season.
<LI>There will be one decisive battle, and Martel will have an important role.
<LI>It will be a battle of endurance, and this time, the Rangers will follow their code. They will stand on the bridge and no one may pass.
<LI>The battle will be won, but it will not defeat the Hand. It will only prove that they will not have an easy victory.
<LI>The Hand will return to their home dimension, never to come back.
[/list]

:: ducks flying flarn hurled at him ::
:: for possibly spoiling half a season ::

Gleeful chaos, as I said.

:: tries shadow dancing, slips on flarn and stumbles ::

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 22, 2002).]

Recoil · Jan 21, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

Damn. Nailed it already. Guess there is no point in watching the series now

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
Without going into the specifics, the events surrounding Isabelle's death and the other Technomages' betrayal are described in the Technomage trilogy, which is considered canon. And from what I remember, I don't think that the new enemy could have been involved.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Crap. And I thought I had it all figured out. In my mind, that sequence of events would've worked so well. Back to the drawing board. I gotta read that Technomage trilogy.

Hey, look! I got 4 diamonds...when did that happen?

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You are finite. Zathras is finite. This...is wrong tool.

jtk724@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Zathras (edited January 21, 2002).]

Recoil · Jan 21, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hey, look! I got 4 diamonds...when did that happen?

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right around the 160 post mark. Its a loooooooong way to 5 diamonds though

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Damn. Nailed it already. Guess there is no point in watching the series now...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a point. You see, I still haven't figured out what happens *after* the first season.

But the first season, captain Martel, fleeing from battle or enduring at any cost, the Hand proclaiming itself "the Hand of God, the Hand of Death", historical limitations within the "Babylon 5" story, event placement after the passing of First Ones, parallels with the battle of Tours, all of it gives pretty damn many interesting hints... So in this brief bout of enhusiasm, I believe I have a lot figured out.

:: looks around to see if the NBS is in sight ::

Well, not all... I can guess nothing about side-stories, even less about the second season. I believe that the first season will be interesting, but the second far more. The main theme of the series seems to start with the second season... and about that, I still have only one clue: rebuilding after the Shadow War.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 21, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

My memory escapes me (or I never paid attention when we studied it

). Could you give me a head's up on the battle of Tours? Who was involved and such?

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You are finite. Zathras is finite. This...is wrong tool.

jtk724@hotmail.com

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

It was a battle fought in 732 near the Loire river, in what is currently France. Forces lead by Abd-er Rahman, the governor of Spain suffered a defeat from a defending Frankish army lead by Charles Martel. It was one of the few medieval battles where infantry, instead of fleeing and getting mopped up, managed to maintain position and defeat cavalry. And it was a battle of endurance which stopped an invasion.

There are no watertight parallels, but I believe that JMS is familiar with medieval history. Hence I suspect that he did not choose the name by coincidence, or suffered from, how do you say... subconscious interference when matching names with a story.

Or may-be he chose the name to deceive us, to make us suspect a parallel? Hmm... I must be getting too suspicious. How many levels of inverse logic can JMS handle? If I would know that...

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 21, 2002).]

Elizar · Jan 21, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

I fully believe that the Hand are the beings from 3rd space. We are told that the Hand have killed thousands of races, were driven back the side of Light, and are coming back through a door way. With this, I believe they are the race from 3rd space.

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-With every light is born a shadow-

Cern · Jan 21, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Elizar:
I fully believe that the Hand are the beings from 3rd space<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you can do that if you want to, but you would be wrong.

Its pretty clear from the movie that the Hand are from our dimension and were Banished to another billions of years ago. the 3SA are originally from 3rdspace, not our regular old reality.

They share some similarities, but thats it. They both seem very Cthulu inspired...if the 3SA=Cthulu, then the Hand would be Yuggoth maybe? I need a refresher course from Miskatonic U...

as long as the name of the Dark City isn't R'Lhey...

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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 22, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

Thanks, Lennier. Sounds like that could be a real possibility if this plot line is going to be wrapped up before the second season gets going.

I keep forgetting that where JMS is concerned, the plot of the pilot is just the story to get you into the REAL story. This thing with the Hand may indeed be completely resolved early in the series.

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You are finite. Zathras is finite. This...is wrong tool.

jtk724@hotmail.com

bakana · Jan 22, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

There is also the probability that the hand is lying to their supporters.
Judging by the little we know about them, they have a very murderous attitude toward other races.
They may be very similar to the Third Space Aliens in that respect.
Remember that the 3SA were dedicated to wiping out Every intelligent race except their own.

If so, I'd expect their allies to be in for a Very Rude awakening.

Whatever they are, All the first Ones seem to have agreed the neighborhood was better off without them.

The big questions are:
How advanced WERE the various first ones when they threw the hand OUT?
Had they achieved transcendence, or were they only a few thousand years ahead of where the Alliance is now?
Has the Hand Improved their tech during the exile, or are they stuck somewhere that they Can't improve it?

Also, some of what was said implies that the Hand cannot come Back from wherever the First Ones sent them without Help from This Side.

A door similar to the door into third Space, perhaps.

Do their Allies need to Build it or Find it?
If they already had a door, the Hand wouldn't still be screwing around with Servant races.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

Akai · Jan 22, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

If the Hand was just another name for the Thirdspace aliens I would have a bit more respect for the whole idea. The jellyfish from hell were just too cool...it would be nice to see them cause some havoc again.

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Spoo: it's what's for dinner.

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 22, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Bakana wrote:

There is also the probability that the hand is lying to their supporters. <snip> If so, I'd expect their allies to be in for a Very Rude awakening.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suspect that as well. And their own allies may be crucial in defeating them, once they realize that they ought to fight. Depending on circumstances, they may be the best-prepared opposition... or the first casualties.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>How advanced WERE the various first ones when they threw the hand OUT? Had they achieved transcendence, or were they only a few thousand years ahead of where the Alliance is now? Has the Hand Improved their tech during the exile, or are they stuck somewhere that they Can't improve it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good questions, all of them. Perhaps we should contact the Sigh Corps (no, not the Pat Tallman Division). You would have to mention "the Hand" in the presence of JMS and see what pops up in his surface thoughts.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Do their Allies need to Build it or Find it? If they already had a door, the Hand wouldn't still be screwing around with Servant races.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We ought to see that soon enough, if Rangers becomes a series. Building requires resources, expertise and time. Finding requires many ships, small, fast and with good sensors.

But starting with a story of a Ranger crew retreating from battle... creates a definite potential to using an opposite story in future. Have the same crew in a decisive battle -- and have them endure without retreating, exactly when this is needed.

Thefore I would suspect that Liandra and its crew may be the first to arrive "on the bridge" -- once it is found or opened. I assume that they will hold the bridge until others will start arriving.

Depending on the extent of the conflict, these others may include the Ranger fleet (quick to respond), Minbari fleet (informed of everything the Ranger fleet does), fleets of other Alliance worlds (can respond if ISA requests)... or even those of other significant powers. Technomages? Drakh? Soul Hunters? Anyone who can fight and may feel their security threatened.

In the end, there will be enough opposition for the Hand to reconsider if they want this galaxy -- badly enough to waste their resources and risk their own lives.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 22, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 22, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

Well, I don't know about the implications of the Hand on the cosmology of B5, but I like the name! Probably just coincidence, but in Akkadian (or Babylonian, if you prefer...) the word 'hand' (either qatum or qatnum...it's been a while...) is also used to refer to power or control. Fits rather well. Or, if the glove fits....hahahaha. Ok, I'll shut up now...

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Jamie ushumgal@earthlink.net
LU2.DUB.SAR
DUMU sha KA2.DINGIR.RA.IA2.KI

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 22, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

Long Time Reader, first time poster!
My read on 'The Hand' was this;

1. I'd have to agree to the posters who suggested that they may be involved with or from Thirdspace. This seems to be the only example of an alternative dimension in B5 canon.

2. Their henchpeople suggest that they are as kick ass as the first one. Remembering G'Kars advice (no-one is who they appear) this may be good PR. Needless to say their henchpersons ships appear fairly nasty (taking out a large ranger vessel fairly easily). However their henchpersons ships don't appear to be as tough as a Shadow Ship from B5. So the Hand must have more impressive ships than their henchpeople (as suggested by Mr Evil Ambassador).

3. They are good at staying hidden, but are not first ones (Lorien almost explicitly says that all the first ones are gone now - he may have missed the odd one or two, but a whole bad ass civilization? I think not). So they cannot be first ones.

All this leads me to think that the hand could be one of two things. Either they could be members of the thirdspace race trapped in our dimension after the Vorlons sealed off their method of travel between dimensions. Remember those beasties do not know how to do this themselves, so they would be stuck here.
OR - the aforementioned thirdspace nasties could control the minds of aliens - even Vorlons. Its pretty much specifically stated in thirdspace that a large number of Vorlons were taken to 'the dark side'. What if these Vorlons were thoroughly corrupted and hid when their masters were sent back? They could be the Hand - always afraid of showing themselves when the Vorlons were around, but now that the Vorlons are gone its time to take over the galaxy!

Just my two penneth!

------------------
*Typical Session of Aliens RPG*
GM - Well you killed all 10 of the Aliens.
Captain Anderson (Me) - You said there were 12 of them.
GM - Really?
Me - Yes, I'm sure - I'm the Captain because I can count!
GM - An Alien jumps on you from the roof.
Me - mumble mumble mumble my big mouth.

DarkOne · Jan 24, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

maybe no one knows of the Hand because they're good at sneaking about

maybe the Hand is quicker than the Eye

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We require no signature.

hypatia · Jan 24, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

I thought that the Third-Space aliens were not “negotiators” but simply eliminated all life that they encountered.

Also, they were not trapped in a prison, but were simply naturally from another dimension, weren’t they?

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"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 24, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

As I remember thirdspace Hypatia they weren't trapped in a prison, but they were unable to jump between dimensions themselves. Thus if any were 'left behind' when the Vorlons blasted the dimensional gate and it got sent out into warpspace they would not be able to get home themselves and would have to make the best of their lives in our dimension. Even genocidal races can change their minds when shown that their impulses would be suicidal and can learn to bide their time!

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*Typical Session of Aliens RPG*
GM - Well you killed all 10 of the Aliens.
Captain Anderson (Me) - You said there were 12 of them.
GM - Really?
Me - Yes, I'm sure - I'm the Captain because I can count!
GM - An Alien jumps on you from the roof.
Me - mumble mumble mumble my big mouth.

hypatia · Jan 24, 2002

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by swcrusader:
Even genocidal races can change their minds when shown that their impulses would be suicidal and can learn to bide their time!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He he he, how true! Especially if you are as long-lived as they might be. Assuming they have the life spans similar to the First Ones.

I think The Hand is actually trapped, imprisoned, though. Not just toughing it out until they can open that gate again.

------------------
"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

Let's speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

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