Londo's Three Chances

Quagmire · Feb 27, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Londo always had a choice. As G'Kar/aka Londo's conscience said he had a responsiblity to speak out. Even if Morden went farther than Londo expected he did nothing to stop it. We all are personally responsible for our decisions.

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"I was free to wallow in my own crapulence." -Mr. Burns in "Who Shot Mr. Burns Part Two"

Kribu · Feb 27, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

When Morden chose to contact Londo, he didn't initially single him out in any particular way. He tried to contact everyone, remember? Even Delenn.

As for why Morden chose to stick with Londo instead of G'Kar - well, I thought it was pretty obvious. G'Kar's answer was angry and bitter, yes, but he gave no indication of wanting anything more than simple revenge on the one enemy.

He didn't want the Narn regime to rule the galaxy. Londo wanted exactly that for the Centauri - his 'dreams' went, at least at the time of Morden contacting him, far beyond *just* striking back at the Narn.

I mean, for all of season 1, the guy rambled on and on about how the Centauri Republic has lost its former glory, has become the laughing stock of everyone, and how it should regain that glory - not by just ending the attacks of the Narns, but by once again occupying and enslaving whole other worlds, the more the better. That was his dream all along.

Whether he actually realised what it meant, is, of course, open to debate, but that's what he at least thought he wanted.

His ambitions for his homeworld were way higher than G'Kar's. That's why Morden chose him. By choosing G'Kar, he'd have gained nothing for the Shadows except for a chance to wipe out the Centauri instead of the Narns.

By choosing Londo, he gained, or thought he would gain, an ally for the Shadows, one that would gladly cause disruption in the whole galaxy, one that wouldn't stop at beating the Narns, their old enemy.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 27, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Joe D said
Londo chose his actions, just as the drunk chooses to drink.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to say that his actions chose him, not the other way around. The singular act of addressing the question of "what do you want" the way he did coupled with the more important act of Morden taking Londo's words and using them to the Shadows' ends is what doomed Londo. The answer to the question is not the only thing that should be blamed, it is the response to the answer. After all this response was the only thing different b/w Londo and G'kar. Londo, from day 1, was a meaningless pawn in the chess game between the Shadows and the Vorlons. One thing that Londo hates being is a meaningless pawn. I will blame him for not realizing that he was a meaningless pawn used by Morden for great destruction sooner than he did.

As far as the drunk driver analogy goes. First I don't think it fits this particular situation very well. Second the drunk is not the only one with a choice. The bartender could choose not to serve an individual beyond an unsafe level knowing it could lead to the death of six people. Everyone might disagree but that is my humble opinion.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

Joseph DeMartino · Feb 27, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>First I don't think it fits this particular situation very well. Second the drunk is not the only one with a choice. The bartender could choose not to serve an individual beyond an unsafe level knowing it could lead to the death of six people. Everyone might disagree but that is my humble opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How was the bartender supposed to know this? You're assuming the guy looked stumbling drunk. What if he didn't? How do you know that the same bartender served all the drinks? Let's assume the guy went to six different bars in the evening, had two or three drinks at each, and wasn't slurring his words or acting drunk. Is somebody else still responsible? Even allowing your point, that there might be shared responsibility, the drunk is still the primary cause of the accident.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>A drunk driver doesn't go through all of the steps in deciding whether he should drive, what if he hits someone, if someone else might kill that family of six if he isn't out there driving.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but a drunk driver does go through the steps of deciding to drink, to continue drinking when he can feel the affects, and to then drive knowing that he may be impaired and that an accident could be the result. He decides to roll the dice with his own life and that of others.

The someone else killing the family issue is where the analogy doesn't quite fit - but it is only an analogy, and none is perfect. The point is that everything that follows in the drunk scenario flows from his decision to get drunk and then to drive. Everything that follows Londo's decision to involve the Shadows flows from his meeting with Morden.

Absent his answer to Morden the Shadows would have moved on and found some other race to be their surrogates. Refa would never have met Morden, much less used him and his "associates" in an attack on Narn. It is true that another race would probably have committed other horrors under the influence of the Shadows, but Londo and the Centauri would have had clean hands. So that wouldn't have been Londo's responsibility.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>JMS said not to kill the one who is already dead but as others hae stated, he is known for trying to throw people off. The meaning may not be meant to be taken so literally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JMS has said, since the series ended, when there was no longer any reason to keep this point a secret, that Sheridan was "the one" he had in mind. Frankly I don't understand how or why this is even still a topic for debate. Some questions actually did get answers, after all, both in the series and in JMS's postings.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 27, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
No, but a drunk driver does go through the steps of deciding to drink, to continue drinking when he can feel the affects, and to then drive knowing that he may be impaired and that an accident could be the result. He decides to roll the dice with his own life and that of others.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm, I'd have to disagree with the 'knowing' part being an automatic given. Depending on the degree of intoxication, he might be perfectly convinced he's fine. I'd see responsibility for drinking knowing that he later has to drive, but once he's drunk, all bets are off as to what he knows or not.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

GKarsEye · Feb 27, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

You do know whether you've had to much to drink. Even if you don't "feel" it, you know if you'd had more than three beers, two shots, etc. Just knowledge of how much you drank is enough to determine whether or not you can drive.

I'm no angel- I've driven under less than ideal circumstances in my day

. But I'm not proud of it. If you drink more than a little bit, don't drive. Anything else, and it's your fault completely.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Recoil · Feb 27, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Archon:
Morden CHOSE to contact him <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I meant about Londo choosing to contact Morden, was he kept having Vir contact Morden for him. Vir, at every occasion, recommended he not do it, but Londo did anyway. And no, Morden didnt choose to contact Londo specficially. He contacted everyone, just that Londo gave the best answer, leading Morden and the Shadows to believe that he could be lured into their plans.

Dont get me wrong, I dont think deep down Londo is a bad guy. But clearly he got in over his head, and had no one to blame but himself. Watching Morden in 'Chryslias' talking about 'oh, at some point, if we deliver on what you ask, we may ask a favor' reminded me SOOO much of the Mafia. If that guy didnt scream trouble, I dont know what does. Londo, just didnt care at the time, and went on ahead. Later he did make some good decisions, but in the end, his past actions caught up to him and he was forced down the path by season 5.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 27, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Kribu said
As for why Morden chose to stick with Londo instead of G'Kar - well, I thought it was pretty obvious. G'Kar's answer was angry and bitter, yes, but he gave no indication of wanting anything more than simple revenge on the one enemy.

He didn't want the Narn regime to rule the galaxy. Londo wanted exactly that for the Centauri - his 'dreams' went, at least at the time of Morden contacting him, far beyond *just* striking back at the Narn.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will agree with the fact that Londo's answer did indicate to Morden that he would be a better candidate. Londo's answer entailed a much larger portion of the galaxy than did G'kar's. At the same time G'kar wanted the same thing as Londo. And Season 1 proves that as much as it does for Londo. How he told Na'toth to delay her blood oath and sacrifice for the Regime. The alliance he tried to worm with Delenn. The attack on Ragesh 3. The attempt to have Sinclair tried on the Vorlon homeworld. The arms deal that almost led to the destruction of Babylon 5! This guy was as ambitious for his own people as Londo was for his, if not moreso.

The other objection I have is that had G'kar been chosen, his alliance with Morden and the subsequent occupation of the Centauri would have been enough for the Shadows motives. Think about it, not all Narn are exactly 'Book of G'Quon' thumping pacifists. A Narn individual the equivalent of Refa could have used G'kar's association with Morden to do as much damage as Refa himself. Thereby causing the destabilization the Shadows sought.

Let's not forget Londo wasn't as good of an ally as Morden thought he would be. After the Narn occupation, he severed contact with Morden. Made sure Refa did the same, and proceeded to stop all the wars *Refa* had started with all the other races. Precisely everything that Morden and the Shadows *did not* want to happen.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Recoil said
Vir, at every occasion, recommended he not do it, but Londo did anyway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right, Vir caught on to Morden *way* before Londo did. Vir didn't have the ambitions or dreams Londo had, so he wasn't blinded by them. Londo let his love for Centauri Prime blind him.

Londo was a dreamer with one eye closed to reality, by the time he had opened both eyes to what was happening, it was too late. That fact that he made *every* effort to make up for that initial moment of pride and anger in front of Morden tells me he isn't a bad guy or a super-villain.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

Recoil · Feb 27, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

As the saying goes:

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

Jade Jaguar · Feb 27, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

I've never liked that old saw, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." does that mean that the road to Heaven is paved with BAD intentions? Only makes sense to me if it means you cast off your good intentions on the way to Hell, so there are plenty lying around to be used for paving.

Back to Londo. The drunk analogy doesn't work from the start, because Londo didn't take Morden seriously, and certainly didn't expect the extermination of an entire Narn colony. But after that, Londo did know what Morden and his associates were capable of, and then he became entirely culpable.

On the other main point of this discussion, I have heard all the arguments here, and else where. I continue to believe that "the eye that does not see" was meant figuratively, refers to G'Kar himself, and Londo did save him, as he had to, so he could give in to his greatest fear, his long standing strangulation nightmare. And it is indisputable that Sheridan is the one who is already dead, even if some others might in some sense be described as already dead.

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

[This message has been edited by Jade Jaguar (edited February 27, 2002).]

Kraig · Feb 28, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I've never liked that old saw, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." does that mean that the road to Heaven is paved with BAD intentions? Only makes sense to me if it means you cast off your good intentions on the way to Hell, so there are plenty lying around to be used for paving. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably an unpaved road to Heaven.

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"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, and the future frightens us ...and our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast, terrible in-between." Emperor Turhan

Kribu · Feb 28, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Archon:
That fact that he made *every* effort to make up for that initial moment of pride and anger in front of Morden tells me he isn't a bad guy or a super-villain.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed, and I don't remember anyone arguing against that here. I think we pretty much agree that he had a conscience, and yes, he did try and make at least some things better later on. As much as I hated, passionately hated, Londo in most of S2 and S3, I cried for him in the end.

But the fact remains that he started it. His personal road to hell started from his own words and actions, and, yes, also his dreams. I'm not arguing what came later, but he started the chain of events.

And it doesn't really matter that Morden could just as easily have chosen G'Kar - except that, as I said, he wasn't quite as ambitious - or if he was, he chose not to tell Morden that. It doesn't matter, because to Morden, Londo's answer was obviously the most satisfactory.

If Morden had picked G'Kar, if G'Kar had given him reason to pick him, then G'Kar would have been the guilty one. As he didn't, it's Londo - sorry, but I cannot see it any other way.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net

Joseph DeMartino · Feb 28, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I continue to believe that "the eye that does not see" was meant figuratively, refers to G'Kar himself, and Londo did save him, as he had to, so he could give in to his greatest fear, his long standing strangulation nightmare.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the prophecy again. If Londo took any of the three chances that Lady Morella described he would have been redeemed and not required to do either of the others. If saving G'Kar was what required, Londo wouldn't have had to face his greatest fear. The prophecy says that would only come into play at the end, if he had failed all the others.

And "the eye that does not see" is a pretty lousy metaphor for G'Kar in the first place. Why not "the one who does see"? Why bring "the eye" into it at all?

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 1, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jade Jaguar:
I've never liked that old saw, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." does that mean that the road to Heaven is paved with BAD intentions? Only makes sense to me if it means you cast off your good intentions on the way to Hell, so there are plenty lying around to be used for paving.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What it means is that, good intent is no guarantee of a happy ending. No matter how good your goal, you can still end up making things worse.
For example, your kid is getting beaten up in school, so you put him in a karate class.
6 months later, he hospitalises a bully, and eventually becomes the new playground bully.
Or you take your company public, intending to grow your business, and a hostile takoever/merger ends up turning a tidy profit for an inside trader, while you and your employees are out of work.
Does that help?
Darkwing

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Darkwing
Let's..get..dangerous

**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 2, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Delenn's words hold much truth. Prophecy is a poor judge to the future. Here we are still unable to agree on what Lady Morella's prophetic words meant even though we have the advantage of being able to view their culmination in hindsight. Am I the only one that finds that funny?

I've seen a lot of people writing that Londo's greatest fear was dying or dying at G'Kar's hand.

I don't think that Londo was afraid of dying at all. He gambled with his life in several episodes of B5. But every time he put his life on the line, he was doing something noble. Londo wanted to die as a hero - whether he was piloting a shuttle through weapons fire down to Epsilon 3, dueling with Urza Jaddo for the honor of his house, or plotting against the wicked Emperor Cartagia. The episode that stands out the most in my mind is the one where the Vorlons have come to destroy Centauri Prime. Without hesitation, Londo commands that Vir must kill him to save his world. There was no fear in Londo's eyes. He was willing to do whatever needed to be done to save his people. Londo wanted to die as a hero.

As I see it, Londo's greatest fear was to die as a detriment to his people. Londo had served the Centauri his whole life in order to make the Republic a better place. He knew that one day he would become emperor and he thought that he would be able to use that power to bring back the glory of his people.

The point where Londo surrendered to his greatest fear was when he resigned himself to die knowing that he had been used to make the Centauri Republic worse and not better...and that he would not be able to fix his mistakes.

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You are finite. Zathras is finite. This...is wrong tool.

jtk724@hotmail.com

**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 2, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And "the eye that does not see" is a pretty lousy metaphor for G'Kar in the first place. Why not "the one who does see"? Why bring "the eye" into it at all?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that the "eye that does not see" has a much narrower meaning than "the one who does see". That could be practically anyone. The eye makes it fairly clear that they are referring to G'Kar. None of the prophecy is laid out perfectly for Londo. He asks what it all means and she said to take it for what it was and to look for the signs when they appear.

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No one here is exactly what he appears.

bakana · Mar 2, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

You could also argue that allowing the Drakh to place the Keeper on him was surrendering "to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you."

Becoming a Slave could very easily be Londo's greatest fear.
Particularly since he was surrendering to the Drakh who wanted to punish the Centauri by turning the entire Race into their slaves.

It ties in to his greatest Love.
Londo was, first and formost, a Patriot.
He loved Centauri Prime more than anything.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

Jade Jaguar · Mar 2, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

Joe, you've inadvertently stumbled on to my problem with your interpretation of 'the eye that cannot see', because I am sure that NEITHER of G'Kar's eyes could see Cartagia's splendor. But after G'Kar loses an eye, he has 'an eye that cannot see', so refering to him that way makes sense to me. I certainly couldn't see refering to him as the ONE who cannot see, since he saw so much...

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 4, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

I agree that Londo's greatest fear was not just dying or dying at the hands of G'Kar. In fact he knew for a long time that that was how he was going to die. His greatest love was Centauri Prime and everything he did, he did for her. He let the Drakh put the Keeper on him and he went along with Morden because he was afraid of what someone else might do. So it would make sense that his greatest fear would be to leave Centauri Prime and not have control over what happened. That is where him dying would ome in. Because at that point in his life things were still under the direct control of the Drakh.

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No one here is exactly what he appears.

**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 4, 2002

Re: Londo\'s Three Chances

I agree with those who think Londo's greatest fear was giving up control and letting himself be enslaved by the keeper. But he wouldn't have anyone else do it being afraid of what others would do in his place.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>In the Centauri trilogy, he tries to find ways to help his people the best way he can. Mainly by using the help of Vir and letting him know as much as he can of what was happening and what was afoot. I think that Londo became an inside spy into the Drakh. I don't think Vir could have survived, much less save Centauri Prime without the aide of Londo. Granted he was extremely weak and powerless in the role he served, and being swallowed by a dragon is not exactly the best way to slay it. But I think it worked out for Centauri Prime in the end (not the end of B5 of course). </td></tr></table>

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Londo's Three Chances

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