LOST Casting Spoiler

[B5_Obsessed]

So think about this. There was nothing special about Locke all this time. He wasn't necessarily meant to be on the island for some greater purpose. He was used and manipulated the entire time, a pawn in someone elses game, and his destiny was to die a pawn in a dusty apartment building. Give the writers credit, they did an excellent job of hiding the series chump.
[/I]

I thought the same thing, but then I also thought, was that all really necessary? Locke was named the leader before he even left; couldn't Smokie have just killed him and carried out this plan two seasons ago? Or was that why Locke almost got pulled down the hole back then, to be killed and replaced? Don't know. We're like the writers' best friends, because we will literally interpret the story in the way that works best.

 

[Sindatur]

When the beach intro scene ended, my first thought was Jacob = Vorlons, other guy = Shadows.

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Heh, didn't see this before I made the same comparison, LOL

 

[Sinclair]

I haven't read every post but I do like a lot of your theories on Jacob and the guy on the beach (Silas from Deadwood). My thought about the beginning scene when the boat is heading toward the island was that it may have been the Black Rock, possibly bringing Alpert to the island for the first time. I have no evidence to support this idea though.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens next season and how they're going to end it all.

 

[Recoil]

Of course the key point of interest now is what exactly is the nature of the battle between Jacob and the other guy? The finale starts with them looking at a ship with sails, implying it was centuries ago. There are also tons of references to ancient Egypt, implying something even older.

When the beach intro scene ended, my first thought was Jacob = Vorlons, other guy = Shadows.

I think it was implied that the ship was the Black Rock. You are right, even at then, it seemed their battle/struggle had been going on for centuries before that. I am wondering if the Black Rock symbolized the other guys long term plan to start manipulating events, or at least, led to him uncovering a "loop hole" as he apprently did. Im sure there is more to the Black Rock than we have seen so far.

And yes, I was really getting the Shadows vs Vorlons vibe here. Frankly, I've been getting that vibe for a couple of seasons, that the should would boil down to a struggle between two parties and that this struggle has been played over and over again for a long time. It is just that with the finale, we saw the FACES of the two individuals behind it finally (or so it seems)

 

[Recoil]

Man, I'm doing all sorts of simul-posting today....

 

[GKarsEye]

oh snap, I totally and completely forgot about the Black Rock, thus ruining the reaction I was supposed to have when seeing it in the finale.

 

[GKarsEye]

For the last couple of seasons, the over-arching conflict seemed to be Ben vs Whidmore. But now the narrative pulls back to reveal a larger conflict between Jacob and some new guy (I'm not willing to call him the smoke-monster yet).

I haven't decided if this is really cool or really frustrating. How does Ben v Whidmore relate to Jacob v New Guy? I mean we know Ben was taking orders from Jacob- or thought he was, or something. Whidmore is still as mysterious as ever and in all the hoopla about Jacob and the finale he's been forgotten about.


Dexter fans- Jacob = Rita's abusive ex-husband.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

We all assume that's the Black Rock. Some had supposed that the ship could have gotten into the middle of the jungle by having the jumping island appear under it as it sailing along, was minding its own business (bad luck, that) but it seems not to be the case. So I wonder how it got so far inland? Tidal wave? Smokie? Klaus Kinski? (little joke there. Kudos if you get it)

 

[Belbo]

^^ The galleon in Aguirre was just stuck in a tree at high tide, not marooned miles from any water ....

I'd agree about the allegiance of Widmore (and Daniels) being the biggest unknown here - especially as we've no evidence that "Esau" can directly manifest off-island. There's also the mystery of how Eloise (and Daniel) can seemingly predict events so accurately, and of the Numbers (we know the source, but not the mechanism), and Stuart Radzinsky (cough) and his cartography, film edits etc .... uh, now I'm getting a nosebleed. :wtf:

A few more specific observations ...

1) Who broke the ash ring around the cabin? Both Ben and Locke were careful to step over it in The Man Behind the Curtain.

2) Does Locke actually die after his defenestration by daddy? A "helpful" passerby wanted us to think so, which would mean that Jacob can re-animate the (recently) dead, despite Richard supposedly never having seen him do it. That would make the status of Christian more uncertain, since (unlike Locke) his body disappears from its coffin and is never found (he also seems to manifest off-island, something only Jacob seems able to do otherwise).

3) Can Hurley and Miles really communicate with the dead, Jack perform miracle cures, Desmond travel through time and Richard live forever? Because between them, they'd have a power set not far short of Jacob's ......

4) Just what are the qualifications for a potential Jacob-killer? Presumably it can't be just any third party - that would be far too easy to have taken hundreds of years (killing Keamy, impersonating him and ordering one of his men to do it, for example) so perhaps a former follower is needed? Only Judas could betray Jesus ......

5) FakeLocke goads Ben into killing Jacob by claiming he was banished from the Island after all his faithful service, but it was actually Ben's choice to turn the wheel in Locke's place. So why doesn't he object?

Oh, and was anyone else expecting a rerun of Montand and Smokey when Juliet was hanging over the shaft? Nice fake-out there. :devil:

 

[Alluveal]

1) Who broke the ash ring around the cabin? Both Ben and Locke were careful to step over it in The Man Behind the Curtain.

My initial response is Claire. I don't know. Claire is another wild-card in this whole thing (as is Desmond, imho.)

2) Does Locke actually die after his defenestration by daddy? A "helpful" passerby wanted us to think so, which would mean that Jacob can re-animate the (recently) dead, despite Richard supposedly never having seen him do it. That would make the status of Christian more uncertain, since (unlike Locke) his body disappears from its coffin and is never found (he also seems to manifest off-island, something only Jacob seems able to do otherwise).

I think "Esau" can manifest into different forms. I too am not willing to assume that he IS Smokey, but I think he can definitely take on various "avatars" in a sense. I think Locke as we know him is gone, unless Jacob is not dead and can resurrect him. I'd love to see old Locke return and just whoop ass on someone.

3) Can Hurley and Miles really communicate with the dead, Jack perform miracle cures, Desmond travel through time and Richard live forever? Because between them, they'd have a power set not far short of Jacob's ......

I don't think that Esau has that far of reach at this point. Jacob has proven that he does, but I'm not sure about the other just yet. But, it's an interesting theory. I like it.

4) Just what are the qualifications for a potential Jacob-killer? Presumably it can't be just any third party - that would be far too easy to have taken hundreds of years (killing Keamy, impersonating him and ordering one of his men to do it, for example) so perhaps a former follower is needed? Only Judas could betray Jesus ......

Not sure. I think Jacob saw it coming. It felt very Garden of Gethsemane to me. The thing I didn't like was Ben's reaction to all of this. I thought he was far more sophisticated and deep in character to really be "played" in such a fashion. Unless he was working with Jacob this entire time and played a part in order to set certain things in motion at Jacob's request.

5) FakeLocke goads Ben into killing Jacob by claiming he was banished from the Island after all his faithful service, but it was actually Ben's choice to turn the wheel in Locke's place. So why doesn't he object?

Again, it could be that Ben is playing a part.

I'm really interested in seeing something more about Richard (or Ricardo as they called him?) Maybe "the Others" were also on board the boat and brought to the island by Jacob. I always wondered where they all came from.

My thoughts: They simply caused "The incident" and things are as they will be (only the 70's Losties will be back in the present.) They pulled a WWE and voila! Back in present to become Jacob's back up ass-kickers.

Sawyer will probably blame Jack for Juliet's death.
Kate will still annoy the frack out of me by pining after Jack and then also leading Sawyer on.

I'm pissed about Juliet's death. She was awesome. She kicked that submarine guy's ass.

 

[GKarsEye]

The quickest way to resolve a lot of the mysteries is to make "Esau" or whatever super-powerful with the ability to change shape or something. He's fake-Locke, and Christian and maybe Chloe and Hurley's ghosts and smoke monster and all that stuff. Or he and Jacob are two equal beings and between the two of them are the manifestations of all the weirdness the other characters see. Hell, while we're at it, make Richard one of them.

I think with Jacob and his enemy, the writers now left themselves a catch-all for every plot thread they can't resolve any other way.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

The theory has been going around for a few years that Richard was the Captain of the Black Rock. He did say that Jacob made him that way (i.e immortal or very long lived) so he was a normal human at some point and this may turn out to be the case.

 

[Alluveal]

I think I am looking forward to Richard's story the most--if we actually get to see one of his (in the past.) That would rock.

 

[GKarsEye]

The theory has been going around for a few years that Richard was the Captain of the Black Rock. He did say that Jacob made him that way (i.e immortal or very long lived) so he was a normal human at some point and this may turn out to be the case.

I like the sound of that.

 

[Recoil]

I was originally thinking Richard was an old old Egyptian...but Captain of the Black Rock would be an interesting twist as well.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Deleted

 

[Galahad]

I'm now up to speed with the season finale.

The early exchange between Jacob and "Esau" reminded me very much of another Biblical parallel - the opening chapter of Job.

I am wondering if Jacob and "Esau" are equal and opposites. Locke's early fascination with backgammon hints at this. In a dream sequence Locke himself appears with one black eye and one white eye. I wonder if Locke is at the centre of Jacob and "Esau's" war.

I'm seriously wondering if Jacob will somehow take over the real Locke's body so we literally have two equal and opposites in the same form.

I seriously don't think Jacob is gone. He seemingly had too much prescience to have not foreseen the loophole. I think Jacob is going to unleash something akin to "the deeper magic from before the dawn of time".