I'm slowly watching all of s4 and I've noticed something both Lyta & Garibaldi say about telepaths that is quite interesting. Lyta says it in "the face of the enemy" and Garibaldi in some earlier ep which I can't remember at this moment (he was talk to Edgars). They're both talking about how the tension between mundanes and teeps will eventually break out into open conflict, and then they both say almost word for word: "I just hope I don't live to see it." This is pretty interesting since both of them will eventually be major players in starting the teep war.
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Lyta & Garibaldi in teep war (spoilers)
- Thread starter Nancy
- Start date
sleepy_shadow
Regular
I suspect their wish was fulfilled. In all probability, neither lived to see a conflict fought between mundanes and telepaths. Hopefully it never happened among humans.
You see... I have the impression that the Telepath war... was more like a civil war among telepaths. It did involve mundanes... but was not against them. It was about the Psi Corps.
In the end, the Psi Corps was removed... and in long term, I would believe three factors "leveled the playing field" once and for all... making telepathy not an advantage, but quite a commonplace property:
1) Genes spread. Sooner or later natural mixing would dilute the Vorlon addition. Everyone would be slightly telepathic... very few non-telepathic... and very few strongly telepathic.
2) Increased exposure to alien cultures would make humanity, regardless if it wished, face evidence that mundanes and telepaths can coexist -- given suitable social models.
3) The spread of leftover technologies from the Shadow War would sooner-or-later bestowe the younger races with advanced technologies... capable of cracking the puzzle of telepathy.
Telepathy would stop being heritage, becoming a personal choice. Admittedly a difficult choice. While its proliferation would remain less-than-complete (and human brains would remain vulnerable to telepathy)...
...people carrying this ability might be perceived to carry a weapon. A weapon developed to stop the humanoid operator of a Shadow ship -- but quite efficient against independent humanoids too.
You see... I have the impression that the Telepath war... was more like a civil war among telepaths. It did involve mundanes... but was not against them. It was about the Psi Corps.
In the end, the Psi Corps was removed... and in long term, I would believe three factors "leveled the playing field" once and for all... making telepathy not an advantage, but quite a commonplace property:
1) Genes spread. Sooner or later natural mixing would dilute the Vorlon addition. Everyone would be slightly telepathic... very few non-telepathic... and very few strongly telepathic.
2) Increased exposure to alien cultures would make humanity, regardless if it wished, face evidence that mundanes and telepaths can coexist -- given suitable social models.
3) The spread of leftover technologies from the Shadow War would sooner-or-later bestowe the younger races with advanced technologies... capable of cracking the puzzle of telepathy.
Telepathy would stop being heritage, becoming a personal choice. Admittedly a difficult choice. While its proliferation would remain less-than-complete (and human brains would remain vulnerable to telepathy)...
...people carrying this ability might be perceived to carry a weapon. A weapon developed to stop the humanoid operator of a Shadow ship -- but quite efficient against independent humanoids too.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Yes... but the virus was captured from Edgars by the Psi-Corps. I doubt if a mundane obtained it again. It appears more likely that Psi-Corps used the virus -- which leaves open two main scenarios.
A) To target mundanes -- if the Corps had the capacity to rewrite the virus. Since mundanes massively outnumber telepaths, this would lead to immediate and total destruction of the Corps.
After a massive search to counter the Drakh-modified Shadow contaminant... human science, and overall science of the Interstellar Alliance... could probably find a flaw in Psi-Corps science, and quickly implement a stopgap defense.
B) To force every telepath to join or die. This would likewise lead to interference from mundanes... but slower and less decisive interference.
Blips would not have the scientific resources to cure themselves before serious levels of infection would be reached. They would need external help -- which makes for a more interesting story.
A) To target mundanes -- if the Corps had the capacity to rewrite the virus. Since mundanes massively outnumber telepaths, this would lead to immediate and total destruction of the Corps.
After a massive search to counter the Drakh-modified Shadow contaminant... human science, and overall science of the Interstellar Alliance... could probably find a flaw in Psi-Corps science, and quickly implement a stopgap defense.
B) To force every telepath to join or die. This would likewise lead to interference from mundanes... but slower and less decisive interference.
Blips would not have the scientific resources to cure themselves before serious levels of infection would be reached. They would need external help -- which makes for a more interesting story.
Bester
Regular
This is exactly right.
The Telepath War that takes place prior to Crusade was a just a war amongst the Teeps. After this war, the Psi-Corps gets replaced by the Bureau we see in Crusade (which in some ways looks just as bad).
We have yet to hear about the Mundane vs Teep War, which may take place long after Garibaldi and Lyta have gone to dust (if there ever is one).
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Actually that isn't what's implied.
The virus developed by Edgars is 100% contagious and 100% fatal if left untreated. The disease that Bester has is exceedingly rare and is treated by an exotic, but still commercially produced, drug. If Bester had the "Edgars virus" he would give it to every Teep he came into contact with (and maybe every normal as well, which would not affect them but would allow them to spread it to every teep they met.) There would be millions of Teeps infected, most of them dying before their condition was even diagnosed. The "Edgards virus" kills within days if the antidote isn't take. Bester's condition requires a once-a-month shot, and even then there would be a period of probably weeks between the on-set of symptoms and death.Bester's disease seems to be a result of Psi Corps experiments to produce a super teep - a continuation of the research that produced Jason Ironheart. It is possible that Psi Corps scientists adapted elements of the Edgards Virus in pursuing their goals, because there are clear signs that the condition originated from an artificial, perhaps even alien, source. But it is not the original disease developed by Edgars by any means.
Or which may never take place. The teep gene is a delicate one, being an artificial creation of the Vorlons and not the natural result of evolution. With Psi Corps gone and its total control over teeps lives (and reproduction) a thing of the past, it is quite possible that talent will gradually be bred out of the Human gene pool, existing only in recessive form and never manifesting itself. Within a few hundred years, telepathy could be as impossible among the Humans as among the Narn.
More likely is sleepy's suggestion, that a technological solution is found to balance the teep's advantages - at least until such time as further technological advances allow every Human to be born telepathic - perhaps when we are closer to the First One-like, encountered suited form we see in "Deconstruction". There is good reason to believe that all telepathy is artificial. Creatures who develop telepathy before intelligence might never need to develop spoken language, abstract thought or tools or weapons, all of which seem to be both products of intelligence and spurs to develop greater intelligence. If we could immediately feel one another's emotional state, needs, wants, desires and intentions, we would not need language. If we could touch and influence the minds of lower animals we would not need weapons to defend ourselves from them, and if they still served as our food we could either paralyze them with a thought or get them to run off a cliff to save us the bother of killing them. No need for cooperative hunting skills, planning, communication, or any of the higher brain functions. And it seems unlikely that telepathy would develop among creatures who already had language and abstract thought. Mutant traits rarely develop full-blown. The earliest proto-telepathic abilities would probably be weak, unfocused and difficult to control. Therefore they wouldn't confer enough of a meaningful survival or reproductive advantage to take root in the population and continue to evolve. (The short story "The Nautilus Story" establishes that this is exactly the case in the B5 universe.) So it seems that the Vorlons "invented" telepathy as an external system and eventually incorporated it at the genetic level. Perhaps we will do the same, forever removing the distinction between "mundane" and "teep"
Regards,
Joe
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Oops. I just swapped around two chunks of fictional history. I somehow placed "Crusade" before the Teep War.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Actually, they'd have the best possible ally in this endeavor - Michael Garibaldi, head of Edgars-Garibaldi which owns Edgars Pharmaceuticals. (And presumably has access to some of the original research used to develop the "Edgars Virus", even if they don't have access to the alien scientists who helped develop it.)
So they might have made some progress even before the war.
After the war and after Excalibur's successful mission Edgars researchers spend a lot of time examining all the stuff that was turned up during its search that turned out not to cure the Drakh plague, but which had other potential uses.
Regards,
Joe
A_M_Swallow
Regular
There is a civil war on Earth 500 years in the future. I do not believe the excuse that it was about how we relate to aliens. That may be the mundane v teep war.
If the telepaths keep the marrying out down to 5% then 99% of humans will be telepathic in one and a half to two thousand years.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
It wasn't just about our relations with the Alliance, it was also about power on Earth. (How surprising.) Don't you think that if this, rather than the internecine conflict of the 2260s was the long-expected "Telepath War" that JMS just might have MENTIONED THE FACT???!!!
"Excuse"?
I'm sorry but this is about the third post along these lines that I've run into today, and I have to say I'm getting sick and tired of these theories that start with the assumption that what we see on the screen is some kind of snow job and that what's really happening is something that is never so much as hinted at on-screen. "I've always though that what Dukhat said was a red herring" said one of these missives. Now Andrew doesn't "believe" the "excuse" that JMS gave for one of the major events in the series chronology and thinks it must have "secretly" had something to do with a Telepath War that JMS never says happened. I guess we're lucky our fellow fans can spot this stuff and decode it.
Look, if we're going to assume that what JMS clearly put on the screen is some kind of active disinformation campaign there are literally no limits to our speculation. We can assume that the Humans really won the Minbari War, that G'Kar is a Cenatauri secret agent who had extensive plastic surgery, and that Susan never left, she killed Sheridan, had a sex change operation, then took his place.
This could lead to some interesting conversations, but they wouldn't have much to do with Babylon 5. I propose a simple rule - if theory doesn't have any connection to reality as defined by the show, we just leave it alone.
Regards,
Joe
A_M_Swallow
Regular
That has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. JMS loves to misdirect the fans.
There is no rule that says there cannot be two telepath wars. The telepath crisis when Lyta returns is obviously the one normally meant but some of the foreshadowing could be about something else.
Exactly who the two groups involved in the Great Burn War were was never fully established. The fake film making person who described the reasons for starting the Great Burn made his living from lying, not a trust worthy source.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Within limits and he always plays fair. Like he plants legitimate clues even while he's trying to misdirect you. And he pays off most of the stuff he plants. (The Lyta vs. the Corps War being one of the few exceptions.) The fact is that whether or not you are satisfied with the reasons behind the Great Burn they are spelled out quite clearly enough for most of us and there isn't the faintest vestige of a clue that the whole incident has anything to do with telepaths. Zero. Zip. Nada. Don't you think he'd at least have stuck a Geek "Psi" on ol' Danny boy if he'd meant in any way to sugges this theory you've pulled out of the aether?
As for Danny lying for a living - not to his bosses for whom he is recording what is clearly a progress report about the work he is doing according to their instructions. Or do you think he's lying to his bosses about their plans and intentions and he thinks they're not going to know about it? Remember, Danny isn't planning "The Great Burn". He's planning a decapitating first strike against his side's enemies. He thinks they're going to be wiped out without warning and without any ability to return fire. So he thinks the war is still weeks away and that his superiors are going to see his report and perhaps suggest refinements for his "goodfax" scenarios. Only Garibaldi's intervention turns the battle into a nuclear exchage that destroys both sides instead of a nuclear blitzkreig that annihilates one side and leaves the other untouched to pick up the pieces. He was a wild card, not something Danny was expecting. And he's only a computer program. So Danny had no reason to lie to Garibaldi, either. Especially since he at least partially fell for Garibaldi's line about helping him do a better job for his superiors. How can G. help Danny advance his career by improving his plan if Danny doesn't tell the truth about what that plan is.
Within the context of the scene you comment about what a liar Danny is doesn't make sense. Nor does dragging in the teeps. For dramatic purposes that would have to have some connection to the scene as it plays out. It doesn't.
Regards,
Joe
sleepy_shadow
Regular
In the conflict which lead to the "Great Burn", apparently some Earth-based factions felt the Interstellar Alliance restrict their ability... of taking things by force.
I do think alien civilizations were mentioned... as the primary target of those wanting to conquer. Apparently, Earth had entered an age of human-centered thinking... and split into two camps.
One side was apparently supported by the ISA, which in addition to potential targets included alien civilizations of comparable power. For which reason, the other wanted ISA to disintegrate.
A sudden escalation of conflict lead to fighting between Human factions. After a great degree of destruction, apparently Earth colonies were not willing or capable of helping their homeworld.
Since humans were still very much dependent on the environment and industry of Earth...for a generation or few, society on Earth fell back countless steps. Lost knowledge could not be reclaimed, lost infrastructure not rebuilt.
But eventually, those who lived in space... appear to have drawn a plan for healing Earth, in which Rangers played an important role.
I do think alien civilizations were mentioned... as the primary target of those wanting to conquer. Apparently, Earth had entered an age of human-centered thinking... and split into two camps.
One side was apparently supported by the ISA, which in addition to potential targets included alien civilizations of comparable power. For which reason, the other wanted ISA to disintegrate.
A sudden escalation of conflict lead to fighting between Human factions. After a great degree of destruction, apparently Earth colonies were not willing or capable of helping their homeworld.
Since humans were still very much dependent on the environment and industry of Earth...for a generation or few, society on Earth fell back countless steps. Lost knowledge could not be reclaimed, lost infrastructure not rebuilt.
But eventually, those who lived in space... appear to have drawn a plan for healing Earth, in which Rangers played an important role.
I always assumed it was a mundane vs teep war, with the mundanes fighting on the side of the rogue telepaths, because I never thought there were enough rogues to actually constitute a serious threat to psi-corps. Terrorist acts and guerilla attacks, but a direct attack... Then again, wasn't Garibaldi funding an army for Lyta while she was away for 2 years?
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Nancy you replied to Sleepy_Shadow who was talking about the Great Burn War which is 500 years after the Lyta v Psi Corps War/Crisis. Is this the War you meant?
A_M_Swallow
Regular
In a teep v mundane war we do not know which side we are looking at. The teeps may like the ISA so they may have been the civilians being targeted.
The teeps have been through hundreds of years where jobs are divided up into teep jobs and mundane jobs. This is the same as women's jobs and men's jobs. Teeps may be allowed to do mundane jobs but they will have quickly found that they do better in jobs that allow them to use their Psi ability.
No Psi ability is needed to fake the films so that becomes a mundane job. The teeps would however need to have a cover story to keep their mundane supporters from rebelling. The Confederate Army even had black regiments. Killing a large number of mundane civilians would reduce the competition for jobs that the teeps are suffering from.
Recoil
Regular
Wow.
Ok I'm with the "you guys are inventing this stuff as you go" camp.
Look people. NO WHERE in regards to the Great Burn does it mention telepaths. Go re-read all the JMS questions on the Lurkers Guide and listen to him DVD commentary as well. NO WHERE in there does it mention telepaths. It was NOT a mundane vs teep war. But if you watch, and read, it gives you enough clues as to the SHORT STORY that JMS was trying to write about that time period:
As JoeD mentioned above, it had everything to do with the politics of the era. Some earthers wanted to seperate from the Alliance because they felt that the Alliance was preventing their expansionist plans (ala Hitler in WWII). JMS went as far as to say this in his commentary of the episode on the DVD. They were using aliens as an EXCUSE for why they wanted to break away from the Alliance, when it was really that they wanted to expand.
Why might you ask did JMS have them use aliens as an excuse for their expansionist plans? Because we had just got done watching FOUR SEASONS of a show where the EXACT SAME THING happened with Earth. JMS has always stated that things he has used in B5 came from history. Nightwatch being reminicent of Senator McCarthy's red-lists in the 50s. Racism. Dr Franklins comment that it takes more than 200 years to breed a better human. JMS has always believed that we WILL MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES AGAIN. So what does he do? 500 years later, we have some leaders on Earth willing to make the same mistake again, and they do.
On the Lurkers Guide it raises a question as to this possibly meaning that B5 failed in its mission? JMS answers that it does not. The B5 characters won their fight against the darkness. Whats more they built the Alliance which lasted thousands of years, and the Rangers, which in some form or another are around in a million years. It was the Rangers and the Alliance that helped covertly REBUILD Earth. Additionally the personality of one of the B5 characters --- Garibaldi's hologram --- saved all of the human colonies that were not on Earth (Mars, Proxima, and however many more we had made in that 500 year span). Something that the B5 characters created, the Alliance, looked back at their fallen home and decided to help rebuild the Earth, but to do it slow and make it better, and to do it in secret so the lesson would be learned once and for all to hopefully prevent THAT mistake from ever happening again.
That is what the 500 year future and Great Burn was all about. It wasn't about Telepaths at all.
Ok I'm with the "you guys are inventing this stuff as you go" camp.
Look people. NO WHERE in regards to the Great Burn does it mention telepaths. Go re-read all the JMS questions on the Lurkers Guide and listen to him DVD commentary as well. NO WHERE in there does it mention telepaths. It was NOT a mundane vs teep war. But if you watch, and read, it gives you enough clues as to the SHORT STORY that JMS was trying to write about that time period:
As JoeD mentioned above, it had everything to do with the politics of the era. Some earthers wanted to seperate from the Alliance because they felt that the Alliance was preventing their expansionist plans (ala Hitler in WWII). JMS went as far as to say this in his commentary of the episode on the DVD. They were using aliens as an EXCUSE for why they wanted to break away from the Alliance, when it was really that they wanted to expand.
Why might you ask did JMS have them use aliens as an excuse for their expansionist plans? Because we had just got done watching FOUR SEASONS of a show where the EXACT SAME THING happened with Earth. JMS has always stated that things he has used in B5 came from history. Nightwatch being reminicent of Senator McCarthy's red-lists in the 50s. Racism. Dr Franklins comment that it takes more than 200 years to breed a better human. JMS has always believed that we WILL MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES AGAIN. So what does he do? 500 years later, we have some leaders on Earth willing to make the same mistake again, and they do.
On the Lurkers Guide it raises a question as to this possibly meaning that B5 failed in its mission? JMS answers that it does not. The B5 characters won their fight against the darkness. Whats more they built the Alliance which lasted thousands of years, and the Rangers, which in some form or another are around in a million years. It was the Rangers and the Alliance that helped covertly REBUILD Earth. Additionally the personality of one of the B5 characters --- Garibaldi's hologram --- saved all of the human colonies that were not on Earth (Mars, Proxima, and however many more we had made in that 500 year span). Something that the B5 characters created, the Alliance, looked back at their fallen home and decided to help rebuild the Earth, but to do it slow and make it better, and to do it in secret so the lesson would be learned once and for all to hopefully prevent THAT mistake from ever happening again.
That is what the 500 year future and Great Burn was all about. It wasn't about Telepaths at all.
I noticed that before, very interesting. I hope we will get to see the Telepath War some day soon.
From season 5, I guess the war could be between 3 parties: Rogue telepaths VS Psi Corps VS Mundanes, and finally the ISA will intervine.
To those people who don't think mundanes are involved with the teep war: Do you realkly think JMS would hint for 5 years on an upcoming war between telepaths and humans, if it will never happen? I don't think so.
Although it maybe just a crisis.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
Yes, I really think JMS would do that. There are more than enough clues within the 5 seasons of the show for a Rogue Teeps vs Psi-Corps "war" to take place without it coming as a genuine surprise.
The whole Teeps vs Mundanes thing was so obviously telegraphed (i.e. characters talking so openly about how it was "inevitable" and hoping "not to live to see it") that it has to have been a typical JMS misdirection.
Kind of like Sheridan pulling his alliance, the Vorlons and the Shadows all to the same place for a "final battle", only to have the Shadow War end on a question of philosophy and the ability of the older races to "let go" of the younger ones.
In the event, the battle took place but not in the way anyone might have expected given the build-up. It does however make perfect sense when considering the motivations of the two sides.
In the case of the Teep War, the war does happen but not in the way heavily expected. Instead of the Teeps vs Mundanes war talked openly about, the war (crisis) involves two different factions subtly hinted at in 5 years of foreshadowing.
My money would be on a large number of "mundanes" (that would be us! - (c)M Garibaldi) joining the battle against Psi-Corps though.
Cheers,
The whole Teeps vs Mundanes thing was so obviously telegraphed (i.e. characters talking so openly about how it was "inevitable" and hoping "not to live to see it") that it has to have been a typical JMS misdirection.
Kind of like Sheridan pulling his alliance, the Vorlons and the Shadows all to the same place for a "final battle", only to have the Shadow War end on a question of philosophy and the ability of the older races to "let go" of the younger ones.
In the event, the battle took place but not in the way anyone might have expected given the build-up. It does however make perfect sense when considering the motivations of the two sides.
In the case of the Teep War, the war does happen but not in the way heavily expected. Instead of the Teeps vs Mundanes war talked openly about, the war (crisis) involves two different factions subtly hinted at in 5 years of foreshadowing.
My money would be on a large number of "mundanes" (that would be us! - (c)M Garibaldi) joining the battle against Psi-Corps though.
Cheers,
