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Matrix Revolutions Kicks Ass! (spoilers)
- Thread starter SwiftBiscuit
- Start date
Lyta
Moderator
I just saw it in an IMAX theater and that was actually cooler than the movie itself. The only trailer I saw was for some NASCAR movie. 
I liked it but it was lacking in many areas. Of course, the first movie was much, much better.
I think the end fight with Smith needed more hand to hand martial arts style fighting instead of flying around CGI because (if done well) they are much more enjoyable than the CGI fights.
I guess now I should watch all three and see how I feel about them after.
I liked it but it was lacking in many areas. Of course, the first movie was much, much better.
I think the end fight with Smith needed more hand to hand martial arts style fighting instead of flying around CGI because (if done well) they are much more enjoyable than the CGI fights.
I guess now I should watch all three and see how I feel about them after.
Capt. Neville
Regular
In pieces...
Why not? The entire point of the Oracle's setup is that she *knows* man and machine must co-exist if either are to survive. The problem was she couldn't just walk up to either side and tell them that, they wouldn't believe it, so she had to force them both down a road until they were *both* on the brink of destruction so that they would finally wake up and realize it. Now that the machines do, there's no logical reason *not* to go along with the peace. And as the Architect so nicely put it, they're not human, i.e. they're not about to go against logic.
If the Architect is to be believed (and, again, there's no reason for him to lie to the Oracle), that won't be for long. After all, you can't just suddenly release 6 billion people who have no idea of what's going on. You have to prepare them, set up to receive them and treat them in the real world, not to mention set up the machines so they can survive without their "power source" (ignoring the physics snafu in that concept there, it's part of the Matrix universe, so I say go with it).
Why not? See above.
If you think about it, neither option was any way that the third movie could end. The rebels simply *don't* have the resources capable of even holding their own against the machines, let alone destroying the Matrix. And, as mentioned before, doing so would pretty much doom the 6 billion human inhabitants. If the rebels lost, well, the entire world would be pissed, not to mention that there would be no point in showing the 6th revision of the Matrix, since at that point it'd be identical to the previous 5, so that couldn't happen either.
Note: in the previous revisions, Smith never became powerful enough to pose a threat to the machines: the One always chose the door to the Source and to reload the Matrix.
The chain of Matrix reloading via the prophesy has been broken. The Oracle's plan from the start is now open in plain sight. The machines now realize that the Matrix in whatever form is destined to fail (as personified by the anti-anomoly Smith) and thus have agreed, for now, to a peace with the humans. Zion, for the first time in 700 years (roughly 100 years per Matrix iteration) is finally NOT destroyed. That isn't enough change?
No, that'd be the lame Oracle comment about possibly seeing Neo again (which I agree *is* pretty lame; he's dead, leave him dead and his sacrifice a just and worthy one) and the admittedly intriguing but very puzzling presence of Sati, which if there are to be any sequels, my money is that they'll concentrate on her.
Sorry to vent, but I've heard this argument from lots of people already and I just can't understand why people are unwilling to accept any other ending than destroy-the-entire-Matrix, even though that's logistically a) impossible and b) undesirable.
Oh well.
--mcn
Why not? The entire point of the Oracle's setup is that she *knows* man and machine must co-exist if either are to survive. The problem was she couldn't just walk up to either side and tell them that, they wouldn't believe it, so she had to force them both down a road until they were *both* on the brink of destruction so that they would finally wake up and realize it. Now that the machines do, there's no logical reason *not* to go along with the peace. And as the Architect so nicely put it, they're not human, i.e. they're not about to go against logic.
If the Architect is to be believed (and, again, there's no reason for him to lie to the Oracle), that won't be for long. After all, you can't just suddenly release 6 billion people who have no idea of what's going on. You have to prepare them, set up to receive them and treat them in the real world, not to mention set up the machines so they can survive without their "power source" (ignoring the physics snafu in that concept there, it's part of the Matrix universe, so I say go with it).
Why not? See above.
If you think about it, neither option was any way that the third movie could end. The rebels simply *don't* have the resources capable of even holding their own against the machines, let alone destroying the Matrix. And, as mentioned before, doing so would pretty much doom the 6 billion human inhabitants. If the rebels lost, well, the entire world would be pissed, not to mention that there would be no point in showing the 6th revision of the Matrix, since at that point it'd be identical to the previous 5, so that couldn't happen either.
Note: in the previous revisions, Smith never became powerful enough to pose a threat to the machines: the One always chose the door to the Source and to reload the Matrix.
The chain of Matrix reloading via the prophesy has been broken. The Oracle's plan from the start is now open in plain sight. The machines now realize that the Matrix in whatever form is destined to fail (as personified by the anti-anomoly Smith) and thus have agreed, for now, to a peace with the humans. Zion, for the first time in 700 years (roughly 100 years per Matrix iteration) is finally NOT destroyed. That isn't enough change?
No, that'd be the lame Oracle comment about possibly seeing Neo again (which I agree *is* pretty lame; he's dead, leave him dead and his sacrifice a just and worthy one) and the admittedly intriguing but very puzzling presence of Sati, which if there are to be any sequels, my money is that they'll concentrate on her.
Sorry to vent, but I've heard this argument from lots of people already and I just can't understand why people are unwilling to accept any other ending than destroy-the-entire-Matrix, even though that's logistically a) impossible and b) undesirable.
Oh well.
--mcn
D
dren1138
Guest
O.K. the real point is that the Machines Won.
First, no I didn't forget Cypher. That is part of the problem. If given the choice many people would stay in the Matrix. That is why the Matrix had to be destroyed. There could be no victory that left anyone in the Matrix. What kind of exsistence is the Matrix "IN A WORLD" that needs to be rebuilt? People choosing to stay in the Matrix means the machines won. I understand the argument of why releasing so many people from the Matrix at once would be catastophic, but they should have come up with a way to explain it. The story was victory or death not o.k. we've over extended and now we want things to go back to the way they were. This ending simply returns us to where the first movie started. A lot of stuff happened and a lot of people died. I am supposed to believe the Architect program is re-thinking things so it starts releasing people from the Matrix, No Way!
Second, why would the machines stick to the bargain? Smith has been defeated. I guess the line is that Neo is dead as well. Zion is virtually destroyed. The humans have one ship that is pretty bashed. They have really nothing else to defend themselves with. Why would the machines stop in their hour of victory? They know there will continue to be anomalies but they have learned their lesson about Smith. Another Neo might choose the other door or maybe they destroy Zion quicker. If they let the One set up Zion then they had to know where Zion was the whole time.
Third, lets look at this from the Architect's perspective. We told this guy we've been trying to kill we'll stop attacking his home town if he defeats this program that is threatening to destroy us. Now, this eventually means that this guy and his buddies are going to either keep stealing parts of our power source or expect us to eventually give up some part of it. Granted a lot will choose to stay in the Matrix but we're computers so we'll figure that at least 1/3 of our power source will want out. That 1/3 will then probably turn around and keep stealing more parts. Then again, the guy we made the deal with is dead, our problem program is dead, and in about 10 minutes this entire renegade city could be dead thus our current problem is solved. I mean really, we've proven there is no problem we can't handle so we'll handle the next one when it comes. Why give up our good thing now when we are so close to securing it? This deal we made really doesn't mean any end to our power source problem. Any solution that involves more people being taken out of our Matrix is suicide for us.
(Let's face it, Zion was the Battle of the Line. This time the The victor surrendered because they made a deal with a dead guy. THEY'RE COMPUTER PROGRAMS not an alien race who hold honor in high regard!)
Fourth, I never believed the goal of the humans was to just keep Zion safe. If that were true then why keep risking yourselves to release more people from the Matrix? Why antagonize the machines if you just wanted to keep your group safe? Their goal was to release everyone from the Matrix and this was supposed to be the end of the story!
Sorry, I saw nothing in the other arguments to change my mind. The ending STINKS!
First, no I didn't forget Cypher. That is part of the problem. If given the choice many people would stay in the Matrix. That is why the Matrix had to be destroyed. There could be no victory that left anyone in the Matrix. What kind of exsistence is the Matrix "IN A WORLD" that needs to be rebuilt? People choosing to stay in the Matrix means the machines won. I understand the argument of why releasing so many people from the Matrix at once would be catastophic, but they should have come up with a way to explain it. The story was victory or death not o.k. we've over extended and now we want things to go back to the way they were. This ending simply returns us to where the first movie started. A lot of stuff happened and a lot of people died. I am supposed to believe the Architect program is re-thinking things so it starts releasing people from the Matrix, No Way!
Second, why would the machines stick to the bargain? Smith has been defeated. I guess the line is that Neo is dead as well. Zion is virtually destroyed. The humans have one ship that is pretty bashed. They have really nothing else to defend themselves with. Why would the machines stop in their hour of victory? They know there will continue to be anomalies but they have learned their lesson about Smith. Another Neo might choose the other door or maybe they destroy Zion quicker. If they let the One set up Zion then they had to know where Zion was the whole time.
Third, lets look at this from the Architect's perspective. We told this guy we've been trying to kill we'll stop attacking his home town if he defeats this program that is threatening to destroy us. Now, this eventually means that this guy and his buddies are going to either keep stealing parts of our power source or expect us to eventually give up some part of it. Granted a lot will choose to stay in the Matrix but we're computers so we'll figure that at least 1/3 of our power source will want out. That 1/3 will then probably turn around and keep stealing more parts. Then again, the guy we made the deal with is dead, our problem program is dead, and in about 10 minutes this entire renegade city could be dead thus our current problem is solved. I mean really, we've proven there is no problem we can't handle so we'll handle the next one when it comes. Why give up our good thing now when we are so close to securing it? This deal we made really doesn't mean any end to our power source problem. Any solution that involves more people being taken out of our Matrix is suicide for us.
(Let's face it, Zion was the Battle of the Line. This time the The victor surrendered because they made a deal with a dead guy. THEY'RE COMPUTER PROGRAMS not an alien race who hold honor in high regard!)
Fourth, I never believed the goal of the humans was to just keep Zion safe. If that were true then why keep risking yourselves to release more people from the Matrix? Why antagonize the machines if you just wanted to keep your group safe? Their goal was to release everyone from the Matrix and this was supposed to be the end of the story!
Sorry, I saw nothing in the other arguments to change my mind. The ending STINKS!
After these nice and well thought out posts i'd like to offer something stupid.
Did anyone else want to just scream out during the scene when trinity is dying "If I had eyes, I would be crying right now." It was the first thing that popped into my head. Reminded me of Dune the whole blindness thing.
Story sucked but the zion fighting scenes were amazing. Why can't they have emp machines everywhere? Small enough so they don't take out the one next to it. HMM don't we already have emp proof electronics in use in the military?
Although I like endings that make you think, not explaining how neo destroyed smith isn't the same thing. They didn’t know how to show it so they left it out.
Anyhoo I did not like the last 2. I can still remember being amazed by the first one though.
The only thing that bordered on being interesting was the conversation between the Indian/Pakistani program and Neo at the train station. We think of the machines as being evil things but if they are truly intelligent could they have something like love? Sappy but intersting.
Did anyone else want to just scream out during the scene when trinity is dying "If I had eyes, I would be crying right now." It was the first thing that popped into my head. Reminded me of Dune the whole blindness thing.
Story sucked but the zion fighting scenes were amazing. Why can't they have emp machines everywhere? Small enough so they don't take out the one next to it. HMM don't we already have emp proof electronics in use in the military?
Although I like endings that make you think, not explaining how neo destroyed smith isn't the same thing. They didn’t know how to show it so they left it out.
Anyhoo I did not like the last 2. I can still remember being amazed by the first one though.
The only thing that bordered on being interesting was the conversation between the Indian/Pakistani program and Neo at the train station. We think of the machines as being evil things but if they are truly intelligent could they have something like love? Sappy but intersting.
Capt. Neville
Regular
Here we go again...oh how I love a good argument, er discussion
Not true. The battle they are fighting is for *freedom*. Being forced to be in the Matrix and choosing to be are two entirely different scenarios. Hence the people that reject the Matrix, hence the Oracle, hence the entire point of the three movies.
*breathes*
A free one.
Neo: Why can't we just destroy the entire Matrix?
Morpheus: Then everyone in it would die. Duh.
Audience: *yawn* More pointless dialog.
Again, things are *not* the way they were. Please, if you're going to support this, then by all means point out where I was wrong in my last post
I already covered this in my last post.
No, Neo is not the anomoly, he is the attempt at *controlling* the anomoly. The anomoly is what can never be rid of, no matter how many times they destroy Zion, no matter how many times they refine the program, because humans do not have a *choice*. This is what the Oracle realized: so long as humans are forced to be in the Matrix without choice, the Matrix, sooner or later, will ALWAYS fail. She just accelerated the process a bit to make it more obvious to the other machines/programs.
Obviously, just as the One and Zion are part of the system of control that the Oracle put in place to bring this whole scenario about, while fooling the Architect into thinking it was a solution to the problem (which in a way, it was, just not the one he was thinking of).
Nor are they organic beings with any sense of deception, power, greed or corruption. They're logical *machines*. Hence the Architect's line at the end.
Anyway, more tomorrow. Later...
--mcn
Not true. The battle they are fighting is for *freedom*. Being forced to be in the Matrix and choosing to be are two entirely different scenarios. Hence the people that reject the Matrix, hence the Oracle, hence the entire point of the three movies.
*breathes*
A free one.
Neo: Why can't we just destroy the entire Matrix?
Morpheus: Then everyone in it would die. Duh.
Audience: *yawn* More pointless dialog.
Again, things are *not* the way they were. Please, if you're going to support this, then by all means point out where I was wrong in my last post
I already covered this in my last post.
No, Neo is not the anomoly, he is the attempt at *controlling* the anomoly. The anomoly is what can never be rid of, no matter how many times they destroy Zion, no matter how many times they refine the program, because humans do not have a *choice*. This is what the Oracle realized: so long as humans are forced to be in the Matrix without choice, the Matrix, sooner or later, will ALWAYS fail. She just accelerated the process a bit to make it more obvious to the other machines/programs.
Obviously, just as the One and Zion are part of the system of control that the Oracle put in place to bring this whole scenario about, while fooling the Architect into thinking it was a solution to the problem (which in a way, it was, just not the one he was thinking of).
Nor are they organic beings with any sense of deception, power, greed or corruption. They're logical *machines*. Hence the Architect's line at the end.
Anyway, more tomorrow. Later...
--mcn
Capt. Neville
Regular
Not quite those words, but yes, exact same thing crossed my mind as well, which to me was the truly tragic part of the scene...
That's what they tried in the second movie, but Smith/Bane set one off while all the ships were close together, taking out several others and reducing their numbers below what they needed to hold the defense. Also listen again to the commander's comment at the start of the battle in the 3rd movie: the machines don't know they don't have any more EMPs, so they'll attack in waves (i.e. making the humans supposedly waste their EMPs until they're out, then the machines just swarm in. Hence why they don't start pouring in until later, once they've realized the truth)
To an extent, but I'm not sure about the practicality or possibility of an EMP-proof EMP bomb.
Neo didn't defeat Smith. He couldn't. That was what Neo finally realized. What he did was let Smith take his body over so that the machines would finally have a direct connection from the Source to Smith (via Neo's body), at which point they could destroy Smith. (I'm still puzzled how the audiences seems evenly split between those that got this immediately and those that just missed it completely. Go figure...)
--mcn
Recoil
Regular
Well like JMS said in B5, the war is never over, there are always new battles to be fought.
The story of NEO is over. The story of the humans fight to free themselves from the machines is over. Now the new story of the humans learning to co-exist with the machines begins...
That is at least how I took it.
The story of NEO is over. The story of the humans fight to free themselves from the machines is over. Now the new story of the humans learning to co-exist with the machines begins...
That is at least how I took it.
Capt. Neville
Regular
Got it in one, Mr. Garibaldi
--mcn
D
dren1138
Guest
Sorry, you can try to break down what I've said all you want, but you obviously saw a different Trilogy. I don't have to breakdown your statements line for line to point out how I can counter them. The argument is simple, the struggle wasn't so people had the FREEDOM to choose the Matrix or real life, it was to DESTROY THE MATRIX and THUS THE MACHINES.
How can anyone say that we are supposed to accept people being the machines power source? There is also no way I can accept that the machines are willing to give their power source a choice. Your right, they're machines that think logically and logically giving the humans a choice could be suicide for them. Besides, they know they were winning and there is no reason to stop.
There is no way the struggle with the machines is over. I grant you that Neo's story is probably over. I'll also grant you that people having a choice to stay in the Matrix was possibly a step Morpheus and the others wanted to reach, but it was just a step toward their overall victory over the machines. I'm sure Morpheus is going to say "Neo must have made a deal with the machines. I quess we'll stop trying to take people out of the Matrix." That is after the machines send the humans a message that says your buddy Neo struck a deal with us before he died. Instead of destroying you, like we were about to, we decided to give up and let our source of life decide whether to stay or leave.
That is all the time I am going to waist discussing this ridiculous story. I don't mean any of you are ridiculous I just mean the end of the movie.
How can anyone say that we are supposed to accept people being the machines power source? There is also no way I can accept that the machines are willing to give their power source a choice. Your right, they're machines that think logically and logically giving the humans a choice could be suicide for them. Besides, they know they were winning and there is no reason to stop.
There is no way the struggle with the machines is over. I grant you that Neo's story is probably over. I'll also grant you that people having a choice to stay in the Matrix was possibly a step Morpheus and the others wanted to reach, but it was just a step toward their overall victory over the machines. I'm sure Morpheus is going to say "Neo must have made a deal with the machines. I quess we'll stop trying to take people out of the Matrix." That is after the machines send the humans a message that says your buddy Neo struck a deal with us before he died. Instead of destroying you, like we were about to, we decided to give up and let our source of life decide whether to stay or leave.
That is all the time I am going to waist discussing this ridiculous story. I don't mean any of you are ridiculous I just mean the end of the movie.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Obviously, you use a TV, probably other video and audio equipment. Do you play video games? Now, if you had to plug one of these into your arm to get its power, would you stop using it? Have you ever heard of symbiosis? Have you ever realized that some people would rather live in a fantasy world full time? So, although you and I might never accept it, many probably would, especially when it was the only existence they had ever known, and REAL life, apart from the machines, would be a huge unknown risk. I like to ask people the following question, to determine which they truly value most, freedom or security: "Would you rather spend the rest of your natural life in a concentration camp, knowing you wouldn't be killed, or instead be dropped off in a rainforest, not knowing if you would get out alive?" Many opt for the concentration camp.
Capt. Neville
Regular
If you pointed out a counter-argument, you would be right. However, particularly with a story like this, the important bits are in the details. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away, nor does ignoring my counter-argument make it wrong either.
At this point, I'd like to point out that I would be perfectly happy to accept what you're saying *if* you could prove it. But you have yet to provide any supporting evidence and I've pointed out several points to the contrary.
That is what the humans thought at the start of the first movie. They, just like the machines, were *wrong*. Hence the entire plot by the Oracle. Hence the speech by the counselman in the 2nd movie. Hence one of the big messages of the whole trilogy: sometimes living in peace is BETTER than mass genocide (particularly when there is some form of symbiosis involved, as Jade mentioned).
Because it's science *fiction*, not science fact.
Clearly they thought that at first. Now they *know* better. It might seem like suicide in the short term, but NOT giving them the choice is suicidal in the long term due to the anomoly.
Guess the Minbari shouldn't have stopped either. They were winning too, after all. Might as well extinguish the entire human race and be done with it. Oh wait, that's a bad idea, hence why they decided *not to*. Same deal here.
Again, to recap: one of the primary themes was that *both* sides were wrong, they need each other to survive and they need to be peaceful about it for it to work. Destroying the machines would only delay the problem, not solve it. Humans *created* them, after all, and history has repeatedly shown us that we have yet to learn how to learn from our past mistakes :~
Personally, I find that a very potent and important message, one many in this world could stand to learn.
Cheers,
-mcn
Capt. Neville
Regular
Sadly, all too true, individually. As a race, we tend to choose the rainforest.
--mcn
There was no way for the humans to destroy the machines and live.
There was no way for the machines to kill all the humans and survive.
There was no way for the humans to free everyone from the matrix.
There was no way for the machines to keep everyone in the matrix.
The cycle the machines had addopted created dangers to themselves and wasted resources.
The only long term solution is to allow those humans who want to be free to be to be free and keep those who don't in the matrix.
How more people didn't see this coming mystifies me.
There was no way for the machines to kill all the humans and survive.
There was no way for the humans to free everyone from the matrix.
There was no way for the machines to keep everyone in the matrix.
The cycle the machines had addopted created dangers to themselves and wasted resources.
The only long term solution is to allow those humans who want to be free to be to be free and keep those who don't in the matrix.
How more people didn't see this coming mystifies me.
Elenopa
Regular
I've just seen the film today.
My first reaction at the end was 'Huh!', but now reading the posts I'm a little clearer at what went on. This is definately is one film that needs to be watched a couple of times to get everything. It's nice to see a film that makes you think, not just throw loads of action into your face.
A note on the editing of the action. It was wonderful to have an uninterrupted sequence of the fight at the dock. It was only after that, that we returned to Neo. There are many other film makers (Lucas immeadiately springs to mind) who would be jumping back and forth every other minute between the two different story lines. I find that very disjointed and annoying as you have to try and keep all the high speed threads in your head at once. Well done on that.
I did think the Neo/Smith fight could have been a bit shorter.
My first reaction at the end was 'Huh!', but now reading the posts I'm a little clearer at what went on. This is definately is one film that needs to be watched a couple of times to get everything. It's nice to see a film that makes you think, not just throw loads of action into your face.
A note on the editing of the action. It was wonderful to have an uninterrupted sequence of the fight at the dock. It was only after that, that we returned to Neo. There are many other film makers (Lucas immeadiately springs to mind) who would be jumping back and forth every other minute between the two different story lines. I find that very disjointed and annoying as you have to try and keep all the high speed threads in your head at once. Well done on that.
I did think the Neo/Smith fight could have been a bit shorter.
