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**DONOTDELETE**
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<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tigara:
<font color=yellow>Well, we also see trek ships just as close. The ships in "Yesterdays Enterprise" were passing each other.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Well, I looked up the TNG tech manual, and I was wrong about phaser ranges. I don't know where I saw that lightminute range reference, but phasers have a range of only 1 lightsecond, while photorps have a range of about 2&1/3 LS.
I didn't find the destructive power of a photorp, but the E-D's phasers put out 5.1 MW per emitter, with 200 emitters per array, so a maximum phaser shot would be about 1.2 gigawatts. I think the E-E was supposed to have a more powerful array, but since there are no canon stats available yet, that doesn't really matter. OTOH, photorps do travel at warp speed, so how can an Omega evade it in normal space?
So, how do B5 weapons compare in terms of power and range? I haven't seen any canon stats, and since B5tech was previously mentioned as being inaccurate, have no idea where else to find them.
<font color=yellow>Well, we also see trek ships just as close. The ships in "Yesterdays Enterprise" were passing each other.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Well, I looked up the TNG tech manual, and I was wrong about phaser ranges. I don't know where I saw that lightminute range reference, but phasers have a range of only 1 lightsecond, while photorps have a range of about 2&1/3 LS.
I didn't find the destructive power of a photorp, but the E-D's phasers put out 5.1 MW per emitter, with 200 emitters per array, so a maximum phaser shot would be about 1.2 gigawatts. I think the E-E was supposed to have a more powerful array, but since there are no canon stats available yet, that doesn't really matter. OTOH, photorps do travel at warp speed, so how can an Omega evade it in normal space?
So, how do B5 weapons compare in terms of power and range? I haven't seen any canon stats, and since B5tech was previously mentioned as being inaccurate, have no idea where else to find them.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
The situation is not much better on the B5 side.
I am unsure about B5 weapons. It has been mentioned that exposed places of the station have several meters of armored hull. To burn through, you would need more than a little power. Considering that a Minbari cruiser cannot have less armor, and seeing one cruiser easily saw off a piece of another, we must conclude that some weapons are pretty powerful. Yet we may be dealing with rock/paper/scissors.
Ships in B5 generally engage each other from close range, unless they have reasons to avoid enemy short-range weapons. One cannot be sure about their maximum range. They rarely shoot from maximum range. Instead, they get closer to fully use their weaponry and fighters. Or jump in to gain a moment of surprise. Hostile ships in the B5 universe rarely approach each other in normal space.
Regarding actual power ouputs: numbers in that field can easily be far off. That Ivanova mentions having a 100 megawatt plasma cannon which "thinks differently" cannot be taken for fact. In fact, the writing style of B5 rarely mentions numbers, usually only the scale. Once you have a Shadow Vessel frying your butt, it does not really matter whether the enemy has 1 or 0.88 terawatts. There is no point is asking it. It will not tell you. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
I am unsure about B5 weapons. It has been mentioned that exposed places of the station have several meters of armored hull. To burn through, you would need more than a little power. Considering that a Minbari cruiser cannot have less armor, and seeing one cruiser easily saw off a piece of another, we must conclude that some weapons are pretty powerful. Yet we may be dealing with rock/paper/scissors.
Ships in B5 generally engage each other from close range, unless they have reasons to avoid enemy short-range weapons. One cannot be sure about their maximum range. They rarely shoot from maximum range. Instead, they get closer to fully use their weaponry and fighters. Or jump in to gain a moment of surprise. Hostile ships in the B5 universe rarely approach each other in normal space.
Regarding actual power ouputs: numbers in that field can easily be far off. That Ivanova mentions having a 100 megawatt plasma cannon which "thinks differently" cannot be taken for fact. In fact, the writing style of B5 rarely mentions numbers, usually only the scale. Once you have a Shadow Vessel frying your butt, it does not really matter whether the enemy has 1 or 0.88 terawatts. There is no point is asking it. It will not tell you. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
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**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Trying to get out of the "whose starships kick more butt?" debate, and back to the idea of merging universes, has anybody thought of more mundane things?
I would feel sorry for the Vulcan ambassadors to the Narn Regime and the Centauri Republic. OTOH, EA would probably have more trouble with them than Enterprise's Earth does - after all, the Vulcans and Minbari ought to get along fine. I could definitely see a Narn with a bat let'h (sp?), and it would be fun to see N'Grath squabbling with Ferengi and Orions.
Just imagine the Galactica finding Earth right after the Shadow War.
The (Gil Gerard) Buck Rogers finding a strangely altered Stargate and coming out the Jumpgate to EA Earth, during his first season, while his Earth was still rebuilding.
Or Sanctuary (Logan's Run) being on the same Mars (this brings to mind a wierd question. Since links are genetically keyed, why aren't PPGs?)
If the universes merged, would Sheridan and company start wearing their links on their chests?
Would the Prime Directive be "to seek out new life and new civilisations, and boldly exploit them"?
Throw in a bit of Niven, and Jhadur would've gotten thrown into jail immediately, because she'd have nothing to sell - boosterspice works without killing. It would be fun to see Bureau 13, PsiCorps, et al, dealing with a sister-agency, the ARM. Birthright Lottery, anyone? (don't Jinx it).
Toss in Foster's Humanx, and the Gaim would have some buddies. Wonder how the Narn would get along with the AANN.
The Howard Families could have made an interesting subplot, especially because of PsiCorps, whether as an underground or as long-term sleeper agents and infiltrators of EarthGov, or even both. Wonder if EarthGov has finished building the New Frontiers. Given Artificial Persons and Living Artifacts, how much dirtier would PsiCorps' special projects have gotten?
Given Mobile Infantry powered armor, would Dodger and General Franklin have lived?
How well could R. Daneel Olivaw fit in? Dr. Susan Calvin?
Dorsai?
or maybe Clarke's Replicant Brigade, under General Roy Batty.....
I would feel sorry for the Vulcan ambassadors to the Narn Regime and the Centauri Republic. OTOH, EA would probably have more trouble with them than Enterprise's Earth does - after all, the Vulcans and Minbari ought to get along fine. I could definitely see a Narn with a bat let'h (sp?), and it would be fun to see N'Grath squabbling with Ferengi and Orions.
Just imagine the Galactica finding Earth right after the Shadow War.
The (Gil Gerard) Buck Rogers finding a strangely altered Stargate and coming out the Jumpgate to EA Earth, during his first season, while his Earth was still rebuilding.
Or Sanctuary (Logan's Run) being on the same Mars (this brings to mind a wierd question. Since links are genetically keyed, why aren't PPGs?)
If the universes merged, would Sheridan and company start wearing their links on their chests?
Would the Prime Directive be "to seek out new life and new civilisations, and boldly exploit them"?
Throw in a bit of Niven, and Jhadur would've gotten thrown into jail immediately, because she'd have nothing to sell - boosterspice works without killing. It would be fun to see Bureau 13, PsiCorps, et al, dealing with a sister-agency, the ARM. Birthright Lottery, anyone? (don't Jinx it).
Toss in Foster's Humanx, and the Gaim would have some buddies. Wonder how the Narn would get along with the AANN.
The Howard Families could have made an interesting subplot, especially because of PsiCorps, whether as an underground or as long-term sleeper agents and infiltrators of EarthGov, or even both. Wonder if EarthGov has finished building the New Frontiers. Given Artificial Persons and Living Artifacts, how much dirtier would PsiCorps' special projects have gotten?
Given Mobile Infantry powered armor, would Dodger and General Franklin have lived?
How well could R. Daneel Olivaw fit in? Dr. Susan Calvin?
Dorsai?
or maybe Clarke's Replicant Brigade, under General Roy Batty.....
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**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow> Thermal protective armour would be of little use. It might even increase the efficiency of a laser by preventing conductive heat transfer, thus increasing temperature at the contact point. The effect of a laser is *not* based on overall heating, but burning a hole or cutting. Now reflective/refractive armour, that would be another matter. It would force the opposing party to have lasers of different wavelengths to punch through.
Lasers come in different wavelengths. From well below infrared to well beyond ultraviolet..</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Masers, grasers, x-rasers too. Wouldn't an infra-red laser be a heat beam?
Now, the weather phenomena mentioned would likely affect visible lasers (light refraction), to a greater degree than non-visible wavelengths, but in space, none of that occurs.
laser-reflective glitter, ice (Star Frontiers Knight Hawks uses a device called a "masking charge", which pumps water out around the hull to deflect some laser damage), or Traveller's Sandcasters would probably blunt the effects of lasers somewhat. A gravity-tech prism-field could probably be made using at least Minbari-level tech, if not lower, that could act as a prism to render lasers back into uncoherent light.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow> What happens? Interesting things will happen. Some have speculated that it might induce fusion reactions, delivering additional damage to most forms of armor. The problem would be: armor with a high energy absorption capacity (Shaodw vessels for example) would cool it down before a significant amount of fusion can happen. With electrically neutral antiparticle beams, that danger would not exist. Which is the reason why I would consider them pretty close to the ultimate weapon.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Yes, I love antimatter, so an antiparticle beam would make an excellent weapon.
<font color=yellow> Thermal protective armour would be of little use. It might even increase the efficiency of a laser by preventing conductive heat transfer, thus increasing temperature at the contact point. The effect of a laser is *not* based on overall heating, but burning a hole or cutting. Now reflective/refractive armour, that would be another matter. It would force the opposing party to have lasers of different wavelengths to punch through.
Lasers come in different wavelengths. From well below infrared to well beyond ultraviolet..</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Masers, grasers, x-rasers too. Wouldn't an infra-red laser be a heat beam?
Now, the weather phenomena mentioned would likely affect visible lasers (light refraction), to a greater degree than non-visible wavelengths, but in space, none of that occurs.
laser-reflective glitter, ice (Star Frontiers Knight Hawks uses a device called a "masking charge", which pumps water out around the hull to deflect some laser damage), or Traveller's Sandcasters would probably blunt the effects of lasers somewhat. A gravity-tech prism-field could probably be made using at least Minbari-level tech, if not lower, that could act as a prism to render lasers back into uncoherent light.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow> What happens? Interesting things will happen. Some have speculated that it might induce fusion reactions, delivering additional damage to most forms of armor. The problem would be: armor with a high energy absorption capacity (Shaodw vessels for example) would cool it down before a significant amount of fusion can happen. With electrically neutral antiparticle beams, that danger would not exist. Which is the reason why I would consider them pretty close to the ultimate weapon.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Yes, I love antimatter, so an antiparticle beam would make an excellent weapon.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Darkwing:
<font color=yellow>Well, I looked up the TNG tech manual, and I was wrong about phaser ranges. I don't know where I saw that lightminute range reference, but phasers have a range of only 1 lightsecond, while photorps have a range of about 2&1/3 LS.
I didn't find the destructive power of a photorp, but the E-D's phasers put out 5.1 MW per emitter, with 200 emitters per array, so a maximum phaser shot would be about 1.2 gigawatts. I think the E-E was supposed to have a more powerful array, but since there are no canon stats available yet, that doesn't really matter. OTOH, photorps do travel at warp speed, so how can an Omega evade it in normal space?
So, how do B5 weapons compare in terms of power and range? I haven't seen any canon stats, and since B5tech was previously mentioned as being inaccurate, have no idea where else to find them.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Well, if you take it with a grain of salt, <a target="_blank" href=http://www.b5tech.com/science/weapons/weapons.htm> click here </a>
<font color=yellow>Well, I looked up the TNG tech manual, and I was wrong about phaser ranges. I don't know where I saw that lightminute range reference, but phasers have a range of only 1 lightsecond, while photorps have a range of about 2&1/3 LS.
I didn't find the destructive power of a photorp, but the E-D's phasers put out 5.1 MW per emitter, with 200 emitters per array, so a maximum phaser shot would be about 1.2 gigawatts. I think the E-E was supposed to have a more powerful array, but since there are no canon stats available yet, that doesn't really matter. OTOH, photorps do travel at warp speed, so how can an Omega evade it in normal space?
So, how do B5 weapons compare in terms of power and range? I haven't seen any canon stats, and since B5tech was previously mentioned as being inaccurate, have no idea where else to find them.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Well, if you take it with a grain of salt, <a target="_blank" href=http://www.b5tech.com/science/weapons/weapons.htm> click here </a>
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**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>Would the Prime Directive be "to seek out new life and new civilisations, and boldly exploit them"?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>Earth Force already has a new motto. They changed it after the Minbari war. "To seek out the worst possible enemy and provoke them with our limitless stupidity or boldly die trying."
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>Given Mobile Infantry powered armor, would Dodger and General Franklin have lived?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>Now that I think of it, General Franklin did live. Was it not him who gave the interview while the ground pounders lay around scorched and dismembered? But I somehow doubt if powered armor would have saved them. Powered armor would be costly and more vulnerable than (hover)tanks. It has more moving parts, joints, exposed surface and other vulnerable places. A mech would probably fall before a tank of equal size, supported by infantry.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>Given Mobile Infantry powered armor, would Dodger and General Franklin have lived?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>Now that I think of it, General Franklin did live. Was it not him who gave the interview while the ground pounders lay around scorched and dismembered? But I somehow doubt if powered armor would have saved them. Powered armor would be costly and more vulnerable than (hover)tanks. It has more moving parts, joints, exposed surface and other vulnerable places. A mech would probably fall before a tank of equal size, supported by infantry.
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**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tigara:
<font color=yellow>Well, if you take it with a grain of salt, <snip>] click here [/url]</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
That's the site a previous post derided as not being factual. Sorry, that's not canonical. Now, if those figure do end up being substantiated, then you would be correct, but until then, I can hold fast to my prejudices.
<font color=yellow>Well, if you take it with a grain of salt, <snip>] click here [/url]</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
That's the site a previous post derided as not being factual. Sorry, that's not canonical. Now, if those figure do end up being substantiated, then you would be correct, but until then, I can hold fast to my prejudices.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Darkwing:
<font color=yellow>That's the site a previous post derided as not being factual. Sorry, that's not canonical. Now, if those figure do end up being substantiated, then you would be correct, but until then, I can hold fast to my prejudices.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Hence the grain of salt.
<font color=yellow>That's the site a previous post derided as not being factual. Sorry, that's not canonical. Now, if those figure do end up being substantiated, then you would be correct, but until then, I can hold fast to my prejudices.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Hence the grain of salt.
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**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow>Earth Force already has a new motto. They changed it after the Minbari war. "To seek out the worst possible enemy and provoke them with our limitless stupidity or boldly die trying." </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
LOL!
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow> Now that I think of it, General Franklin did live. Was it not him who gave the interview while the ground pounders lay around scorched and dismembered? But I somehow doubt if powered armor would have saved them. Powered armor would be costly and more vulnerable than (hover)tanks. It has more moving parts, joints, exposed surface and other vulnerable places. A mech would probably fall before a tank of equal size, supported by infantry.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
You sure about General Franklin? I thought the interview was before the end of the battle. Hmmm....gotta review that ep.
As for the powered armor, have you read Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers? That armor would not have been so vulnerable. They drop from orbit in those suits, and sergeants carry baby nukes in their rocket launchers. they have a jumpjet function, a whole mess of sensors, and way too many weapons. If you haven't read it, I highly reccomend it, it has almost nothing in common with the movie, except names (not that it was a bad movie, just not a good adaptation, understandable since the armor could not be convincingly created on screen).
Cheers,
<font color=yellow>Earth Force already has a new motto. They changed it after the Minbari war. "To seek out the worst possible enemy and provoke them with our limitless stupidity or boldly die trying." </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
LOL!
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow> Now that I think of it, General Franklin did live. Was it not him who gave the interview while the ground pounders lay around scorched and dismembered? But I somehow doubt if powered armor would have saved them. Powered armor would be costly and more vulnerable than (hover)tanks. It has more moving parts, joints, exposed surface and other vulnerable places. A mech would probably fall before a tank of equal size, supported by infantry.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
You sure about General Franklin? I thought the interview was before the end of the battle. Hmmm....gotta review that ep.
As for the powered armor, have you read Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers? That armor would not have been so vulnerable. They drop from orbit in those suits, and sergeants carry baby nukes in their rocket launchers. they have a jumpjet function, a whole mess of sensors, and way too many weapons. If you haven't read it, I highly reccomend it, it has almost nothing in common with the movie, except names (not that it was a bad movie, just not a good adaptation, understandable since the armor could not be convincingly created on screen).
Cheers,
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow><snip> The latter also has numerous modeled images and other material. But none of them have *reliable* information as reliable information on such subjects is an impossibility.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Thanks, i'll have to check them out. True, until we actually build a starship, we won't have factual info, but I am willing, for the sake of the B5 vs. Trek weapons debate to consider anything shown onscreen, such as (non-joking/hyperbolic) dialogue, screen captures, or statements by JMS as sufficiently reliable for our purpose. I've seen Trek fan products that discuss terawatt phasers, but since it ain't canon, I won't use it for comparison.
Still, unless someone can provide the canonical data, I'd like to move on to the other aspects of merging universes previously mentioned, and any others that may come to mind.
We've pretty much focussed on who could win a fight, and that's hardly the whole story - not that I am blameless, myself. I let myself get sidetracked by it also.
So, when are we installing the replicators on the Zocalo?
How soon can Friday join the cast, and when does US Robotics open an office on the station?
<font color=yellow><snip> The latter also has numerous modeled images and other material. But none of them have *reliable* information as reliable information on such subjects is an impossibility.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Thanks, i'll have to check them out. True, until we actually build a starship, we won't have factual info, but I am willing, for the sake of the B5 vs. Trek weapons debate to consider anything shown onscreen, such as (non-joking/hyperbolic) dialogue, screen captures, or statements by JMS as sufficiently reliable for our purpose. I've seen Trek fan products that discuss terawatt phasers, but since it ain't canon, I won't use it for comparison.
Still, unless someone can provide the canonical data, I'd like to move on to the other aspects of merging universes previously mentioned, and any others that may come to mind.
We've pretty much focussed on who could win a fight, and that's hardly the whole story - not that I am blameless, myself. I let myself get sidetracked by it also.
So, when are we installing the replicators on the Zocalo?
How soon can Friday join the cast, and when does US Robotics open an office on the station?
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>So, when are we installing the replicators on the Zocalo?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>When the MacBari stop selling Shadow hamburgers which (aside from being dirt cheap) grow on their own, cook themselves, have a networked mind, scream when eaten, try crawling off your plate and can defeat Data in chess.
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**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow>When the MacBari stop selling Shadow hamburgers which (aside from being dirt cheap) grow on their own, cook themselves, have a networked mind, scream when eaten, try crawling off your plate and can defeat Data in chess.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Cool! Sounds better than Gagh. But why would I let my food play chess with Data? He might want to study with it, or something else that keeps me from being fed.
<font color=yellow>When the MacBari stop selling Shadow hamburgers which (aside from being dirt cheap) grow on their own, cook themselves, have a networked mind, scream when eaten, try crawling off your plate and can defeat Data in chess.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Cool! Sounds better than Gagh. But why would I let my food play chess with Data? He might want to study with it, or something else that keeps me from being fed.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Loadhan:
<font color=yellow>Bah! We all know the great Dalek Empire would easy conquor all of the above and all of the known Universe ... unless anyone happens to be by a staircase or has a bowler hat or something else equally able to drape over their eye-stalk ....</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I always wanted to to arrange for the Daleks, Borg, and Cylons to meet:
By... your... Command.... Assimilate, assimilate!
<font color=yellow>Bah! We all know the great Dalek Empire would easy conquor all of the above and all of the known Universe ... unless anyone happens to be by a staircase or has a bowler hat or something else equally able to drape over their eye-stalk ....</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I always wanted to to arrange for the Daleks, Borg, and Cylons to meet:
By... your... Command.... Assimilate, assimilate!
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
The meeting should be easy to arrange. Have a neutral and unbiased mediator ask each party what they want. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif
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**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow>The meeting should be easy to arrange. Have a neutral and unbiased mediator ask each party what they want. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Noooooo! Leave the Shadows out of this! Though it would be a good idea if Galen spied on it, and maybe Twiki can be a double agent.....
<font color=yellow>The meeting should be easy to arrange. Have a neutral and unbiased mediator ask each party what they want. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Noooooo! Leave the Shadows out of this! Though it would be a good idea if Galen spied on it, and maybe Twiki can be a double agent.....
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Loadhan:
<font color=yellow>Oh, and I should point out also the Star Wars CCG doesn't stand up very well against the Babylon 5 CCG. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif
We once had a freaky coclomerate game - including Magic. I was nice and agreed to not use my Planet Killer against the Star Wars locations or Magic lands ... since without those their decks were useless! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
Yep, when it takes all game to build the Death Star and all I need is to get to the Shadow War to bring out the Death Cloud .... *smiles*</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, and Sheridan survived Z'ha'Dum by tapping his Gaea's Cradle for ten green mana, and casting a 'Stream of Life'
<font color=yellow>Oh, and I should point out also the Star Wars CCG doesn't stand up very well against the Babylon 5 CCG. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif
We once had a freaky coclomerate game - including Magic. I was nice and agreed to not use my Planet Killer against the Star Wars locations or Magic lands ... since without those their decks were useless! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
Yep, when it takes all game to build the Death Star and all I need is to get to the Shadow War to bring out the Death Cloud .... *smiles*</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, and Sheridan survived Z'ha'Dum by tapping his Gaea's Cradle for ten green mana, and casting a 'Stream of Life'
